Fatwa: Muslims can't be part of one-way trip to Mars

[Broomstick]

A lot of non-Muslims regard the whole Mars One mission as a suicide mission, and I've even seen speculation that due to interstellar radiation levels they wouldn't even reach Mars alive.

Interstellar? Because it's like saying 'intercontinental' in the context of next town trip. Not to mention humans actually survived over year long space missions with little problems, not that the priest would be aware of it.

Sorry, typed "interstellar" when I meant "interplanetary" but I'm sure most people figured that out already.

The "over year long space missions" have all taken place inside the Earth's geomagnetic field which is protective of those same astronauts. All space missions beyond that point (mostly the Apollo Moon missions) have been measured in days. While in some ways the radiation load experienced on those missions were less than expected, and less than the predicted worst-case scenarios, the odds are that over the time frame of a trip to Mars a solar flare or other radiation hazard is likely to occur, and may well occur multiple times.

Then, there are positive examples, like Opportunity and Spirit remaining operational forty times longer than planned, not 3 months but 10 years. If anything, if scientists could have done that decade ago, it's all the more reason to listen to them today in the matter instead of heeding to ignorant priests. We successfully landed probes on Saturn/Titan since then!

When probes/rovers/whatever works they tend to work very very well but anyone who thinks space isn't still risky is nuts. Sure, bravo, we've landed a probe on Titan. It lasted all of 90 minutes past landing.

Sure, the recent Martian rovers have lasted longer than anticipated... after how many failures taught us about what was needed? Now you're suggesting we know enough to design a far more complex machine for the support of human beings and expect it to exceed expectations? You're willing to bet human lives on that? Why?

[PainRack]

Israel alone has more scientists than all of Arab speaking countries put together. Islam accounts for 1/5 of world's population, but just for ~1% of world's scientists [according to Pakistani survey, which also criticizes rote learning based on the Koran]. This is not the result of Muslims being dumber, no, but because of every country priesthood trying to forbid as much of 'Western Rot' as possible, forbidding everything they could, like autopsies and dissections on medical universities.

Actually, that's simplifying what the Muslim cleric Al Ghawali said. Its not true to claim Islam remains friendly towards science(because the term science simply didn't apply in that era) but they weren't hostile EITHER. The real problem was that the Muslim Caliphate fragmented and each leader fought with each other and became increasingly stridently militant to define Islam as itself and outlier, which prevented a cooperative effort to restore the academic study of science post Mongol purge.

But hey, Islam accounts for 1/5 of world population........ namely nations which got screwed over during the colonial period and denied education by their ruling European elites, unlike the wealthy Jewish disporara....... I mean, it just HAS to be the sole fault of Islam, right? I mean, there just isn't counter-examples like say Iran trying to build their own nuclear reactor and moving on to a nuclear weapon, right?

As for autopsies....... no. Its forbidden to do a autopsy routinely, but its not forbidden entirely.
http://omarkasule-05.tripod.com/id297.html

How about half of global examples of polio occurring in one country thanks to enlightened words of local Muslim scholars:

Nafiu Baba Ahmed, Secretary General of the Supreme Council for Sharia in Nigeria, has 16 children and none of them have been immunised against polio. "There are greater risks than polio," he says. "I think either this is an imaginary thing created in the west or it is a ploy to get us to submit to this evil agenda." The suspension if the immunisation programme was a disaster for those like the World Health Organization trying to eradicate polio.

That was in 2006, long before any Pakistan CIA suspicions. And that is after WHO jumped through all kinds of ridiculous hoops like profiling people distributing vaccines according to their age, religion, race, sex, and personality to appease them.

Let's run through a timeline first shall we?

When did Kenya stop their polio vaccination program? 2003.
Why did they stop it? A variety of reasons. Cost. The fact that Kenya was polio free. And the government saying that vaccines were bad, mmkay? A plot by Westerners to introduce AIDs to Kenyans and eradicate overpopulation........ Or in other words, anti Illuminati propaganda flowering in an uneducated country.

Just WHY did said preacher think vaccines are bad? Because they believe that its an attempt to introduce hormones to sterilize the population. Or in other words, Kenyan muslim cleric is just as vulnerable to conspiracy theorists as Pakistani cleric.

But, what actually sparked this conspiracy theory?
http://www.uow.edu.au/~bmartin/dissent/ ... /BM15.html

Oh. An American Rolling Stones journalist and The Rivers.


But....... But.............. Its anti science now right? He dismissing the risk of polio! Just like those anti vaccine nuts!

http://www.irinnews.org/report/83877/we ... ce-lingers

So..... the main factor behind limiting vaccinations isn't actually religious based objection now, but due to the shit poor health infrastructure in Kenya. And once we consider that public health education is also a health infrastructure problem, that makes it like 80% of the problem.

But.... But.... It was the Islamic council that started the whole thing, advising the government to stop vaccination back in 2003.
I mean, just why would they feel that way?
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2003/08 ... olio-alive

Ali Guda Takai, a WHO doctor, explains the logic: "What is happening in the Middle East has aggravated the situation. If America is fighting people in the Middle East, the conclusion is that they are fighting Muslims." Indeed, the number of polio cases has increased sharply with the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq: 9 in 2001, 54 in 2002 and 74 in the first 11 months of 2003.

The source of the problem lies with the doctors, imams, political leaders and professors who endorse the conspiracy theory. They are led by Ibrahim Datti Ahmed, 68, whom the article quotes as saying of Americans, "They are the worst criminals on Earth to sterilize children for life. Even Hitler was not as evil as that."

But KENYA STILL HELD OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Its those fucking muslims I tell you, still holding out against Vaccinations even after the Nigerian president started mass vaccinations in 2004.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographi ... a#Religion
11% Muslim. 47% Protestants. 23.5% Catholics.


Taking a much more broader look shows that Islam is nothing more special than any other religion in actually raising a bunch of stupid people who aren't well versed in science. Who knew?

Combating AIDS in the Islam Africa is as hard as in Christian parts, except you can't even blame outside authority's orders in that case, it's all uphill fight against local priests. It's worse, in fact, Christian priests and bishops were known to disobey pope in the past, and don't cling to ridiculous notions of conspiracy and anti-science themes, they oppose it purely on moral grounds.

Hell, Islamic "scholars" even debate if AIDS virus really exists and if the disease isn't caused by condoms, wrath of god, western medicines, CIA conspiracy, or about dozen other things. Yes, fatwas they issue might not be universal, but a fatwa is usually good indication of consensus in the matter.

Simon and StarSword, please don't act like there was nothing wrong with Islam and the entire issue was just western mud slinging. No, positive examples are sadly rare outliers and most priests/scholars are truly ignorant coming close to truth like proverbial broken clock. Not every critique on Islam is Tea Party's 'brown skinned people are Untermenschen', sometimes atheist religion critique really has a point, you know?

Yay! Irbis. You FINALLY FOUND ONE SALIENT POINT TO SHOW THAT MUSLIMS CLERICS CARE MORE ABOUT RELIGION THAT SCIENCE AND HUMAN WELFARE.

HURRAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I just kinda skip the point where the article points out that the Anglican Bishop were also making the same points, because as we all know, the real problem is Islam, instead of the problem being religions.

[orderud]

Regarding the history on islam, modernity and science and where things "went wrong", it's ofcourse easy to put the blame on colonial European powers, as this would imply that it isn't islamic culture per se that is responsible for the decline in scientific orientation over the last hundreds of years, but outside interference. However, in this book by Bernard Lewis, he points out that for centuries Islamic civilization reveled in a kind of superiority complex, believing that there were nothing they could learn from non-muslim civilisations, resulting in a lack of new knowledge and ideas entering, and ultimately, made it fall behind western civilisations technologically, millitary, and societally. As Lewis points out, untill the late 18th century, only one known western book was even translated into arabic, which highlights this massive arrogance against outside ideas. This also led to islamic states falling easily to european powers in millitary conflicts, which also implies that the decline in scientific focus in the muslim world ultimately was not a result of the colonial rule, but rather a partial cause for it.

[orderud]

But hey, Islam accounts for 1/5 of world population........ namely nations which got screwed over during the colonial period and denied education by their ruling European elites, unlike the wealthy Jewish disporara.......

Looking at the science productivity and research budgets of various countries in the islamic world. vs. countries in the western world, shows that the focus on science in the islamic world generally is quite dysmal. Saudi Arabia, for example, which has never been under European colonial rule, and is also a quite roboust economy being one of the worlds largest exporters of oil, spends less than 0.1% of it's GDP on research. Compare this to for example Japan(3.4% of GDP) or USA(2.7%), and you'll easily see how blaming lack of research productivity and scientific orientation in the islamic world on previous european colonial rule as being a quite hollow explanation.

[Ralin]

Looking at the science productivity and research budgets of various countries in the islamic world. vs. countries in the western world, shows that the focus on science in the islamic world generally is quite dysmal. Saudi Arabia, for example, which has never been under European colonial rule, and is also a quite roboust economy being one of the worlds largest exporters of oil, spends less than 0.1% of it's GDP on research. Compare this to for example Japan(3.4% of GDP) or USA(2.7%), and you'll easily see how blaming lack of research productivity and scientific orientation in the islamic world on previous european colonial rule as being a quite hollow explanation.

Most of what is now Saudi Arabia was pretty undeveloped during the colonial period compared to other parts of the Islamic world, wasn't it? And they’re wealthy now mainly because massive amounts of oil was found there after World War II? So I’m skeptical of the argument that their particular lack of scientific research disproves the idea that colonialism and imperialism did more to hold back the rest of the Islamic world than some fundamental problem with Islam, anymore than America and Europe’s success comes from something fundamentally better about Christianity.

Saudi Arabia is an absolute monarchy that lists the Quran as their constitution. Substitute any other set of scriptures for the Quran and you’d get much the same results.

[orderud]

Most of what is now Saudi Arabia was pretty undeveloped during the colonial period compared to other parts of the Islamic world, wasn't it? And they’re wealthy now mainly because massive amounts of oil was found there after World War II? So I’m skeptical of the argument that their particular lack of scientific research disproves the idea that colonialism and imperialism did more to hold back the rest of the Islamic world than some fundamental problem with Islam, anymore than America and Europe’s success comes from something fundamentally better about Christianity.

I have never mentioned anything about Christianity, so I don't know why you brought that up. I believe the reason western culture surpased the rest of the world in some areas like f.eks. technology and millitary, is because of the ideas that sprung out during enlightenment, including the scientific method. However, as I pointed out in the post above the one you quoted, there is quite a lot of evidence suggesting that the lack of scientific provess in the islamic world today, is the result of events starting way before european colonial powers took controll of some areas in the islamic world.

Saudi Arabia is an absolute monarchy that lists the Quran as their constitution.
Substitute any other set of scriptures for the Quran and you’d get much the same results.

Maybe, but still we see the same thing in almost the entire islamic world, including many countries that never were under colonial rule in the first place. These countries generally still have far less research productivity than the rest of the world, and still is assigning far less of it's GDP for research. Is it really that far fetched to suggest that this might have something to do with something other than the fact that some of these states were under european colonial rule for some time, like for example what Bernard Lewisis is suggesting in this book?.

[orderud]

By the way, Norway were under the rule of foreign nations(First Denmark, the Sweeden), for almost four hundred years, and when it gained it's independence in 1905, it was one of the poorest and least developed countries in Europe. Similar to several of the islamic countries previously under colonial rule, in other words. Just like Saudi Arabia, it found oil some time after WW2, and today it generally tops development rankings, is considered one of the most egalitarian societies in the world, and is a huge exporter of not only oil, but of technology and knowledge related to maritime and oil industries. Why didn't the same thing happen in the islamic countries that was previously under colonial rule, and which then found oil? Or Saudi Arabia, which were never under colonial rule, and which then also found oil? Do you believe it is a coincidence that Norway also happen to be one of the most atheist countries in the world?