Is Moffat simply lazy or does he suck?

[Thanas]

In the latest Sherlock mini-episode he actually is of the opinion that Germany has a jury system.

The hell?

[Zaune]

I think that was a holdover from one of the stories, which was set at a time when you did. Kind of like John still giving his regiment as "5th Northumberland Fusiliers" when it should have been "Royal Army Medical Corps, seconded to Royal Regiment of Fusiliers".

I'm not sure if that was sloppy research or a deliberate stylistic choice.

[Thanas]

I think that was a holdover from one of the stories, which was set at a time when you did.

Nope. We never had juries the way he portrays it. Even the earlier "juries" consisted of three judges + jurors and totally had different ways to go about business. Also, no way the jury selection was structured back then so that a stranger could get in.

[Tribble]

"As we all know this jury was convened in highly unusual circumstances, but now I must press you for a judgement."

IMO Moffat knows that Germany doesn't use juries, but perhaps was under the impression that one could still be called in exceptional circumstances. From 1955-1990 there was one way you could end up in a jury trial: if you committed a serious enough offence in American-occupied Berlin you could in theory be tried with a full civilian jury under the United States Court for Berlin, though that particular court was only convened once in 1979 to hear the jury trial of the LOT Flight 165 hijacking defendants. Of course as Thanas pointed out, even in this particular circumstance Sherlock would never be allowed on the jury.

I'd say Moffat was going for style over substance, which seems to be the trend in his latest work.

[Broomstick]

Hmmm.....

I have some notion of how the English system of a jury came about, and how it lead to the US system. Care to provide a short history of the German version? Or point me to a reference on line for the layperson. Thanks.

As for the rest...

First, it's clear that Sherlock is set in an alternate universe anyhow so if I was going for a No-Prize I'd say it's part of what makes that universe an alternate.

More plausibly, it might be that Moffet used a jury system feeling that would be more familiar to the Anglophone audience.

Or he's lazy.

[Thanas]

"As we all know this jury was convened in highly unusual circumstances, but now I must press you for a judgement."

IMO Moffat knows that Germany doesn't use juries, but perhaps was under the impression that one could still be called in exceptional circumstances.

That assumes we ever had juries. We did not. Not what you would call a jury anyway.

[Thanas]

Hmmm.....

I have some notion of how the English system of a jury came about, and how it lead to the US system. Care to provide a short history of the German version? Or point me to a reference on line for the layperson. Thanks.

Sorry, too little time. All my sources are in German and since this goes back to saxon law it is too much for me too quickly summarize it.

EDIT: I might be able to get a bit of info on specific issues, so ask away.

[Pelranius]

That did bug me when I watched the trailer/mini-sode today.

So even if Germany does have juries in this alternate world, does that mean Sherlock will be nailed for identity fraud (unless he actually went as Sherlock Holmes to jury duty)?

[Vendetta]

Or, he ignored the German justice system and wrote what he knew his audience would be familiar with so he didn't have to do complicated explaining to british drama TV audiences.


So he's lazy.

[Tribble]

American-occupied Berlin did have the United States Court for Berlin from 1955-1990, though it was only used once...and I doubt Moffat knew that. After all the "jury trial" in this episode took place in Hamburg.

Btw, why does it have to one or the other? IMO Moffat was being lazy and sucked while writing this particular scene

[Broomstick]

Hmmm.....

I have some notion of how the English system of a jury came about, and how it lead to the US system. Care to provide a short history of the German version? Or point me to a reference on line for the layperson. Thanks.

Sorry, too little time. All my sources are in German and since this goes back to saxon law it is too much for me too quickly summarize it.

EDIT: I might be able to get a bit of info on specific issues, so ask away.

How about I try a little research on my own, see if that gets me anywhere, and I come back with a more focused question or two?

[Flagg]

IMO From Doctor Who Moffat is able, but likes to rely on plot contrivances far too much. Still better than the last few Tennant seasons by far, though.

But really Thanas, do you expect a production with limited time and budget to do copious research or hire an expert advisor on German law for an audience completely unfamiliar with that system and who probably only know the basics of their own legal system?

[Tribble]

IMO From Doctor Who Moffat is able, but likes to rely on plot contrivances far too much. Still better than the last few Tennant seasons by far, though.

Tennant was only on the show for a few series lol. Are you referring to episodes past series 2? Or his entire run?

[Thanas]

IMO From Doctor Who Moffat is able, but likes to rely on plot contrivances far too much. Still better than the last few Tennant seasons by far, though.

But really Thanas, do you expect a production with limited time and budget to do copious research or hire an expert advisor on German law for an audience completely unfamiliar with that system and who probably only know the basics of their own legal system?

They took care to get the German right. This means they at least took care to properly translate dialogue. So....yes? At least do a google search.

[Tribble]

They took care to get the German right. This means they at least took care to properly translate dialogue. So....yes? At least do a google search.

Agreed. It literally would have only taken them seconds to find out the answer. While this might not matter in a lot of shows, this is Sherlock we're talking about. The audience is supposed to be analysing the scenes to look for clues. How are we supposed to do that when they screw up something as basic as Germany using a different legal system? Not to mention that even if Germany had a jury system, they sure as hell wouldn't allow a foreign stranger to sit in one!

The only way this could possibly make sense was if the newspaper the guy was reading from was wrong. Seeing as my local newspapers are lucky if they get the day of the week right, let alone what goes on in a courtroom, this might not be so far-fetched.

[Thanas]

Problem is they had several newspapers with the same headline, including a German one.

I think Moffat just got lazy and assumed every nation must have a jury system.

[Tribble]

Probably, but that being said we are talking about a universe where the police routinely consult a PI with known psychological issues to aid them in solving murder cases.

[Broomstick]

I'm not sure "psychological issues" make one inherently unfit for the work.

My initial foray into discovering the German legal system has led me to several conclusions:
- their is system is WAY different than what I'm familar with
- I can understand that it would be difficult, in the time frame of the presented clip, to explain the differences to an audience used to living under a system based on English common law.
- If you can't use the scene sensibly then use a different scene. In other words, if you can't explain the situation in the allotted time frame don't use that setting, do something else.
- if I ever have reasons to deal with the German legal system I am DEFINITELY hiring a lawyer because otherwise I'll just get myself into a lot of trouble.

[bilateralrope]

Not to mention that even if Germany had a jury system, they sure as hell wouldn't allow a foreign stranger to sit in one!

Even if Germany had a traditional jury system, and he was legally allowed on as a juror, I doubt that he could convince them to change their mind without relying on his reputation as Sherlock Homes, evidence that wasn't presented in the trial, or something else that will invalidate the conviction when it comes to light.

[Tribble]

Come to think of it this almost seems like a homage to "Twelve Angry Men" though in this case the reverse happened. Perhaps that was the joke?

[Flagg]

IMO From Doctor Who Moffat is able, but likes to rely on plot contrivances far too much. Still better than the last few Tennant seasons by far, though.

Tennant was only on the show for a few series lol. Are you referring to episodes past series 2? Or his entire run?

The finale of the season with The Master on with some gems in there.

[FaxModem1]

Maybe Sherlock had a vendetta against this guy and made an innocent man go to prison? Who knows in this wacky universe?

[ray245]

Is there any other countries in Europe that has a jury system?

[Pelranius]

Maybe Sherlock had a vendetta against this guy and made an innocent man go to prison? Who knows in this wacky universe?

Tied to the mysterious Moriarty network, no doubt.

[Welf]

- if I ever have reasons to deal with the German legal system I am DEFINITELY hiring a lawyer because otherwise I'll just get myself into a lot of trouble.

Can you elaborate that? I always thought the English common law system was way more difficult because it has multiple sources of law. Although I have only a superficial knowledge of the English system.