The act of killing

OT: anything goes!

Moderator: Edi

User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

The act of killing

Post by Thanas »

The act of killing is a documentary. It is both the most horrifying and the most important movie I have seen all year.

It depicts people from the Indonesian death squads (backed by the USA, most notably Kissinger, who killed from 0.5-6 million people for being communists or just suspected communists, from minorities or just having had scores with the gangsters) reenacting what they did. And it is absolutely horrifying. For example you see an otherwise kind old man discuss how he used to kill hundreds by using wire to strangle them because beating caused too much blood to clean up.

And the crazy thing is: They are proud of it and preparing to repeat it. And some are still shaking down their victims like the paramilitary groups. Completely acting without impunity right in front of cameras. I guess they can do so because the freaking Vice President of Indonesia is a member.

The whole thing is so surreal....
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
User avatar
PeZook
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13237
Joined: 2002-07-18 06:08pm
Location: Poland

Re: The act of killing

Post by PeZook »

Well, most people have a built-in resistance to killing others ; Breaking this isn't all that easy.

Some people, however...don't. Either because they were brought up dehumanizing the "other", or because something is not quite right with them. It's not that they're psychopaths per se, just that killing others comes easy for them. All they need is a reasonable rationalization as to why it's the correct route to go and you get either an extraordinary soldier fighting for a good cause...or a kindly elderly grandfather who strangles hundreds of suspected communists with wire.

David Grossman estimates it's about (IIRC) 5% of all people who are well-adjusted normally but will easily kill when they feel justified. Another weird thing is that they only rarely get PTSD because of killing, too.
Last edited by PeZook on 2013-08-27 02:33am, edited 1 time in total.
Image
JULY 20TH 1969 - The day the entire world was looking up

It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth. I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth. I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- NEIL ARMSTRONG, MISSION COMMANDER, APOLLO 11

Signature dedicated to the greatest achievement of mankind.

MILDLY DERANGED PHYSICIST does not mind BREAKING the SOUND BARRIER, because it is INSURED. - Simon_Jester considering the problems of hypersonic flight for Team L.A.M.E.
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: The act of killing

Post by Thanas »

Yeah, but....just watch the documentary.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
User avatar
The Grim Squeaker
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10314
Joined: 2005-06-01 01:44am
Location: A different time-space Continuum
Contact:

Re: The act of killing

Post by The Grim Squeaker »

PeZook wrote: David Grossman estimates it's about (IIRC) 5% of all people who are well-adjusted normally but will easily kill when they feel justified. Another weird thing is that they only rarely get PTSD because of killing, too.
Actually, only a percentage of people will suffer PTSD at all. (It's a case of psychological/physiological "vulnerability". Most people will be fine after exposure to 'PTSD' inducing stressors).
[/Psych major AWAY!]
Photography
Genius is always allowed some leeway, once the hammer has been pried from its hands and the blood has been cleaned up.
To improve is to change; to be perfect is to change often.
User avatar
K. A. Pital
Glamorous Commie
Posts: 20813
Joined: 2003-02-26 11:39am
Location: Elysium

Re: The act of killing

Post by K. A. Pital »

I'm delighted to the see the subject of Indonesia's anti-communist massacres and Indonesian genocidal killings both in the 60s inside the nation and later in East Timor is now being at least discussed.

For a while it was a taboo subject, thanks to the US obfuscation and bullshitting about it even when the massacre itself was well underway. Islamists and military fascists butchered not just communists but also feminists, suspected feminists, and socialists and liberals of all kinds a bit later.
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...

...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Assalti Frontali
User avatar
PeZook
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13237
Joined: 2002-07-18 06:08pm
Location: Poland

Re: The act of killing

Post by PeZook »

The Grim Squeaker wrote: Actually, only a percentage of people will suffer PTSD at all. (It's a case of psychological/physiological "vulnerability". Most people will be fine after exposure to 'PTSD' inducing stressors).
[/Psych major AWAY!]
Grossman cites estimates from Vietnam which range from 15 to as much as 53% of all veterans marked as suffering from varying degrees of PTSD ; On the other hand (again, according to Grossman), the few percent of soldiers who show little resistance to killing have a vastly smaller incidence...as long as they view their killing as just.

Plus in WW2 way less soldiers actually shot at the enemy, while in Vietnam almost every soldier did.
Image
JULY 20TH 1969 - The day the entire world was looking up

It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth. I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth. I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- NEIL ARMSTRONG, MISSION COMMANDER, APOLLO 11

Signature dedicated to the greatest achievement of mankind.

MILDLY DERANGED PHYSICIST does not mind BREAKING the SOUND BARRIER, because it is INSURED. - Simon_Jester considering the problems of hypersonic flight for Team L.A.M.E.
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28724
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Re: The act of killing

Post by Broomstick »

PeZook wrote:Grossman cites estimates from Vietnam which range from 15 to as much as 53% of all veterans marked as suffering from varying degrees of PTSD
What, exactly, is meant by "varying degrees"? One of my uncles admitted to the occasional nightmare of his time fighting in the Pacific against the Japanese, but it was just that, occasional, and there is no sign his war experience impaired his ability to function and enjoy life. Would the study showing 53% count that as a some sort of "mild" PTSD? If so, then yeah, it's going to find a majority of soldiers have PTSD but I'm not sure if the problem should be defined that broadly.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
User avatar
PeZook
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13237
Joined: 2002-07-18 06:08pm
Location: Poland

Re: The act of killing

Post by PeZook »

The direct quote is:
Lt. Col. Dave Grossman, On Killing, p.282 wrote: Post-traumatic stress disorder is described by the American Psychological Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders as "a reaction to a psychologically traumatic event outside the range of normal experience." Manifestations of PTSD include recurrent and intrusive dreams and recollections of the experience, emotional blunting, social withdrawal, exceptional difficulty or reluctance in initiating or maintaining intimate relationships, and sleep disturbances.

(...)

Estimates of the number of Vietnam veterans suffering from PTSD range from the Disabled American Veterans figure of 500,000 to Harris and Associates 1980 estimate of 1.5 million, or somewhere between 18 and 54 percent of the 2.8 million military personnel who served in Vietnam.
I would have to dig up the study itself though, and naturally it is an older book, so The Grim Squeaker might yet school me (and Grossman by extention) on the issue, hence why I take pains to point that this is Grossman's thesis which I happen broadly to agree with.
Image
JULY 20TH 1969 - The day the entire world was looking up

It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth. I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth. I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- NEIL ARMSTRONG, MISSION COMMANDER, APOLLO 11

Signature dedicated to the greatest achievement of mankind.

MILDLY DERANGED PHYSICIST does not mind BREAKING the SOUND BARRIER, because it is INSURED. - Simon_Jester considering the problems of hypersonic flight for Team L.A.M.E.
User avatar
The Grim Squeaker
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10314
Joined: 2005-06-01 01:44am
Location: A different time-space Continuum
Contact:

Re: The act of killing

Post by The Grim Squeaker »

PeZook wrote:The direct quote is:
Lt. Col. Dave Grossman, On Killing, p.282 wrote: Post-traumatic stress disorder is described by the American Psychological Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders as "a reaction to a psychologically traumatic event outside the range of normal experience." Manifestations of PTSD include recurrent and intrusive dreams and recollections of the experience, emotional blunting, social withdrawal, exceptional difficulty or reluctance in initiating or maintaining intimate relationships, and sleep disturbances.

(...)

Estimates of the number of Vietnam veterans suffering from PTSD range from the Disabled American Veterans figure of 500,000 to Harris and Associates 1980 estimate of 1.5 million, or somewhere between 18 and 54 percent of the 2.8 million military personnel who served in Vietnam.
I would have to dig up the study itself though, and naturally it is an older book, so The Grim Squeaker might yet school me (and Grossman by extention) on the issue, hence why I take pains to point that this is Grossman's thesis which I happen broadly to agree with.
Well, it's been 2 years since I learnt it, so I don't recall numbers (As I said).
That said, a quick google for PTSD rates gives:
http://www1.appstate.edu/~hillrw/PTSD%20MM/PTSD_references.html wrote:The National Comorbidity Survey (NCS), a nationwide study, found that 56% of Americans experience a lifetime trauma and 8% develop PTSD (Perkonigg et al., 2000).
Perkonigg, A., Kessler, A.C., Storz, S., Wittchen, H-U. (2000). Traumatic Events and Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder in the Community: Prevalence, Risk Factors and Comorbidity. Acta Psychiatr Scand, 101, 46-59.
And from the article's abstract (from a study on Germans):
"26% of male subjects and 17.7% of female subjects reported at least one traumatic event, only a few qualified for a full PTSD diagnosis (1% of males and 2.2% of females). Traumatic events and PTSD were strongly associated with all other mental disorders examined. PTSD occurred as both a primary and a secondary disorder."
Now, the type of traumatic event does matter, aka it's severity or source (direct human caused trauma such as rape tends to be 'worse' vs "indirect/natural disasters" such as a car crash or the London Blitz), so I would expect higher PTSD levels from wartime, but even so, I would be flat out amazed (or at least very skeptical) of a 52% rate of vulnerability.

To put it another way, how many New Yorkers came down with PTSD after 9/11? Or people living in hurricane affected areas?
Heck, you had the entire population of Israel as a "sample group" multiple times in the past few decades (gulf war 2, rocket attacks..).

So yeah. Only a certain percentage of the population is 'vulnerable' to PTSD. (The percentage is different depending on how "sensitive" they are. It's also very strongly affected by biology, hence the far higher number of women affected).
The exact 'risk factors' are varied and rather interesting, but don't interest me as much :).


EDIT:
Another article/source:

"Epidemiology of trauma, post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) and co-morbid disorders in Chile."
The lifetime prevalence of PTSD was 4·4% (2·5% for men and 6·2% for women). Among persons exposed to trauma, rape was most strongly associated with PTSD.
Oy, it lacks exposure numbers :(. (I lack academic access from here)

EDIT2:
Here's another one. (and one that's really a "worst case" scenario - lots of continuing, human caused violence year over year combined with high stress /anxiety).
90% exposure!
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Ad ... ne.0063545
PLoS One. 2013 May 8;8(5):e63545. doi: 10.1371/journal.pone.0063545.
The impact of epidemic violence on the prevalence of psychiatric disorders in Sao Paulo and Rio de Janeiro, Brazil.
[...]
Nearly 90% of participants faced lifetime traumatic events.
[...]
Lifetime prevalence estimates of post-traumatic stress disorder among females were 14.7% in Sao Paulo and 11.1% in Rio de Janeiro. One-year prevalence estimates of post-traumatic stress disorder in females were 7.8% in Sao Paulo and 4.7% in Rio de Janeiro. [...]
One-year prevalence estimates of post-traumatic stress disorder were significantly higher in our study (5% in Sao Paulo and 3.3% in Rio de Janeiro)
(See Table 4)

Note that only a minority of PTSD cases last for more than a certain period of time (say, one year). Lifetime prevalence rates are high, aka "have you ever been in shock for some time". But PTSD lasting for longer than that, is what what most people think of when talking about PTSD. (Note - "Shell Shock" isn't quite exactly PTSD. It's very close, but a cousin, not a twin. As I recall).
Photography
Genius is always allowed some leeway, once the hammer has been pried from its hands and the blood has been cleaned up.
To improve is to change; to be perfect is to change often.
User avatar
PeZook
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13237
Joined: 2002-07-18 06:08pm
Location: Poland

Re: The act of killing

Post by PeZook »

The Grim Squeaker wrote: Now, the type of traumatic event does matter, aka it's severity or source (direct human caused trauma such as rape tends to be 'worse' vs "indirect/natural disasters" such as a car crash or the London Blitz), so I would expect higher PTSD levels from wartime, but even so, I would be flat out amazed (or at least very skeptical) of a 52% rate of vulnerability.
Grossman's thesis is that the higher incidence of PTSD from war is caused by the fact soldiers are forced to kill, and modern training methods have become so effective at making killing a reflexive action, that most people who'd delegate the kiling to others (by firing high, not firing at all, assuming support roles, etc.) are now firing weapons and killing the enemy, and then have to deal with the result. In essence he says killing is actually the biggest trauma soldiers suffer in war: worse than seeing people die, worse than prolonged stress, worse than fear of death. In fact he cites interviews and research that indicates soldiers don't actually fear death the most.

However, he never manages to pinpoint precise numbers. It doesn't help that we are only now learning what PTSD truly is and isn't, so statistics from WW2 are almost certainly unreliable, but when comparing civilians suffering from everyday trauma you can sorta see a pattern.

For example, the VA estimates that out of 2.5 million soldiers who served in Afghanistan and Iraq, as many as 800 thousand are suffering from PTSD, which falls between the 18 and 54% estimated for Vietnam, and is several times higher from the incidence amongst the population, even the population which lives in violence-riddled places.

For Vietnam veterans lifetime prevalence is possible to study and I found this fact sheet which also confirms that Vietnam veterans have about a three times higher rate than civilians. Overall Grossman's thesis does seem to have something to it, doesn't it? Even low estimates are still high when compared to the general population, including the population that's seeing their cities turned to rubble by fleets of heavy bombers!
Image
JULY 20TH 1969 - The day the entire world was looking up

It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth. I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth. I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- NEIL ARMSTRONG, MISSION COMMANDER, APOLLO 11

Signature dedicated to the greatest achievement of mankind.

MILDLY DERANGED PHYSICIST does not mind BREAKING the SOUND BARRIER, because it is INSURED. - Simon_Jester considering the problems of hypersonic flight for Team L.A.M.E.
Falkenhayn
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2106
Joined: 2003-05-29 05:08pm
Contact:

Re: The act of killing

Post by Falkenhayn »

Thanas wrote:The act of killing is a documentary. It is both the most horrifying and the most important movie I have seen all year.

It depicts people from the Indonesian death squads (backed by the USA, most notably Kissinger, who killed from 0.5-6 million people for being communists or just suspected communists, from minorities or just having had scores with the gangsters) reenacting what they did. And it is absolutely horrifying. For example you see an otherwise kind old man discuss how he used to kill hundreds by using wire to strangle them because beating caused too much blood to clean up.

And the crazy thing is: They are proud of it and preparing to repeat it. And some are still shaking down their victims like the paramilitary groups. Completely acting without impunity right in front of cameras. I guess they can do so because the freaking Vice President of Indonesia is a member.

The whole thing is so surreal....
Seems pretty much in line with Sonke Neitzel's and Harald Welzer's arguments grounded in 'military reference frame'. The Aufklarungstruppen mentioned in their evidence viewed a scenic drive through crimean farmland and the gang rape of Russian forced laborers (who when then thrown from moving vehicles) as clauses in a sentence.

It's not that most people don't have a resistance to killing. It seems that between Neitzel and Welzer, not to mention Christopher Browning, that whatever biological resistance we have to killing is easily overcome by other factors.
Many thanks! These darned computers always screw me up. I calculated my first death-toll using a hand-cranked adding machine (we actually calculated the average mortality in each city block individually). Ah, those were the days.
-Stuart
"Mix'em up. I'm tired of States' Rights."
-Gen. George Thomas, Union Army of the Cumberland
User avatar
The Grim Squeaker
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10314
Joined: 2005-06-01 01:44am
Location: A different time-space Continuum
Contact:

Re: The act of killing

Post by The Grim Squeaker »

Falkenhayn wrote: It's not that most people don't have a resistance to killing. It seems that between Neitzel and Welzer, not to mention Christopher Browning, that whatever biological resistance we have to killing is easily overcome by other factors.
On an off hand, unbased level, It seems to me that the most effective way this works is simply by establishing a cultural/cognitive POV in which the subjects are dehumanized.
Look how "well" this worked in the Holocaust, or Barbados slavery (which made the American south look like a modern day worker's paradise by comparison) which defined slaves as property/chattel.
Look at the differences today between cultures that regard some animals as "intelligent/almost human" and those that don't. (In terms of horrible elephant tusk harvesting, tiger/monkey paw removal, rhino slaughter, etc').

EDIT:
In this vein, I would expect soldiers firing support gear to be much less affected. The effect might be higher than for "hunter gatherer" societies where dehumanization of enemy tribes and violence is a way of life (Jared Diamond: "The world until yesterday") , but aiming rockets from a plane at tiny grey dots isn't likely to inflict anywhere near the level of "empathy" as shooting one man in the gut and watching him react as you would.


OR , as has best been said: (Albeit in a very different context and frame):
"One man's death is a tragedy, a million men's death is a statistic"
.
(Just look at the Hiroshima or Nagasaki plane pilots).
Photography
Genius is always allowed some leeway, once the hammer has been pried from its hands and the blood has been cleaned up.
To improve is to change; to be perfect is to change often.
User avatar
Edi
Dragonlord
Dragonlord
Posts: 12458
Joined: 2002-07-11 12:27am
Location: Helsinki, Finland

Re: The act of killing

Post by Edi »

What would be interesting would be a comparison of PTSD levels between the veterans of different nations who have taken part in recent wars. IIRC the Brits aren't dealing with nearly the level of fallout among their Iraq and Afghanistan vets as the Americans are. Rob Wilson remarked on this years ago and the Mess had a pretty extensive discussion on the differences of training methods.

Training soldiers means that you teach them that when they shoot, whatever they shoot is a target. It's not a human, or a tank, or a car, or a helicopter or anything else, it's a target. Or it's an enemy. One of the things I remember from my conscript training was that when combat was discussed in a training context, there was always a target. If you combine that kind of thinking with an effort to dehumanize the target and classify them as other, something that does not matter, which has no rights and which is not like you, you remove the barriers to killing. Especially if you at the same time provide a justification.

Some people will never have the cultural barrier we in the west have against killing broken down. For some it's not such a big step.
Warwolf Urban Combat Specialist

Why is it so goddamned hard to get little assholes like you to admit it when you fuck up? Is it pride? What gives you the right to have any pride?
–Darth Wong to vivftp

GOP message? Why don't they just come out of the closet: FASCISTS R' US –Patrick Degan

The GOP has a problem with anyone coming out of the closet. –18-till-I-die
User avatar
PeZook
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13237
Joined: 2002-07-18 06:08pm
Location: Poland

Re: The act of killing

Post by PeZook »

The Grim Squeaker wrote: EDIT:
In this vein, I would expect soldiers firing support gear to be much less affected. The effect might be higher than for "hunter gatherer" societies where dehumanization of enemy tribes and violence is a way of life (Jared Diamond: "The world until yesterday") , but aiming rockets from a plane at tiny grey dots isn't likely to inflict anywhere near the level of "empathy" as shooting one man in the gut and watching him react as you would.
Grossman points out the absurdly disproportionate killing ability of crew-served weapons as evidence that having a team to operate a weapon makes the act of killing more bearable (and also makes it harder to avoid killing the enemy by, say, deliberately firing high). For example, during the US Civil War, two lines of infantry could fire muskets at each other for hours and only kill a few men (relatively speaking) ; But artillery would quickly devastate basically any target. He also poses that distance is important: mechanical, physical and emotional distance all play a role in the level of trauma and the willingness to pull the trigger.
Image
JULY 20TH 1969 - The day the entire world was looking up

It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth. I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth. I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- NEIL ARMSTRONG, MISSION COMMANDER, APOLLO 11

Signature dedicated to the greatest achievement of mankind.

MILDLY DERANGED PHYSICIST does not mind BREAKING the SOUND BARRIER, because it is INSURED. - Simon_Jester considering the problems of hypersonic flight for Team L.A.M.E.
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: The act of killing

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Surely that has something to do with how much more powerful artillery is than muskets.
User avatar
PeZook
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13237
Joined: 2002-07-18 06:08pm
Location: Poland

Re: The act of killing

Post by PeZook »

The Romulan Republic wrote:Surely that has something to do with how much more powerful artillery is than muskets.
Based on accuracy and actual firing tests against targets, a unit formed in ranks at typical musket ranges should've been unable to withstand more than one or two salvos before being devastated and unable to fight.

And it's not just artillery: all crew served weapons nearly always fire at the enemy.
Image
JULY 20TH 1969 - The day the entire world was looking up

It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth. I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth. I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- NEIL ARMSTRONG, MISSION COMMANDER, APOLLO 11

Signature dedicated to the greatest achievement of mankind.

MILDLY DERANGED PHYSICIST does not mind BREAKING the SOUND BARRIER, because it is INSURED. - Simon_Jester considering the problems of hypersonic flight for Team L.A.M.E.
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: The act of killing

Post by Thanas »

Have those "accuracy" tests ever been performed under actual battle conditions?
AKA:
- You can't see anything more than 20 or so feet away due to the smoke.
- You are using 19th century "quality" gunpowder
- You are stark raving drunk due to having been given your battle ration of a belly full of brandy
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
User avatar
PeZook
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13237
Joined: 2002-07-18 06:08pm
Location: Poland

Re: The act of killing

Post by PeZook »

The relevant quotes:
Lt. Col. Dave Grossman, On Killing, p.19 wrote:These weapons were fast and accurate. A soldier could generally fire four or five rounds a minute. In training, or while hunting with a rifled musket, the hit rate would have been at least as good as that achieved by the Prussians with smoothbore muskets when they got 25 percent hits at 225 yards, 40 percent hits at 150 yards, and 60 percent hits at 75 yards while firing at a 100-foot by 6-foot target. Thus, at 75 yards, a 200-man regiment should be able to hit as many as 120 enemy soldiers in the first volley. If four shots were fired each minute, a regiment could potentially kill or wound 480 enemy soldiers in the first minute.
Lt. Col. Dave Grossman, On Killing, p.20 wrote:At first the vision of a long line of men with every man firing in unison might hold true. If the leaders maintained control, and if the terrain was not too broken, for a while the battle could be one of volleys between regiments. But even while firing in regimental volleys, something was wrong. Terribly, frightfully wrong. An average engagement would take place at thirty yards. But instead of mowing down hundreds of enemy soldiers in the first minute, regiments killed only one or two men per minute. And instead of the enemy formations disintegrating in a hail of lead, they stood and exchanged fire for hours on end.
Now, more to the point: all the problems you just listed should affect artillerymen as well. Firing smoothbore guns over long ranges into a battlefield full of smoke. Possibly not the brandy ration, yes, but nonetheless artillery always fired (not true for soldiers in line), and when it fired it always fired at the intended target.

I mean, the 200-man regiment mentioned above should be devastated in the first couple salvos. Even if Prussian accuracy results would drop by an order of magnitude under battle conditions, that would still be 7.5% accuracy, or 14 casualties per salvo, with five shots per minute for a well-drilled regiment...well...the engagement should be over within an hour or two.

Instead you got exchanges of fire that lasted for the entire day. Seriously, let's see Austerlitz: 15 000 dead on the coalition side over 7 hours, or 2142 dead per hour (even if we assume most of those didn't happen during the rout). That's actually pretty pathetic, but the real killer are Napoleon's casualties: some 2000 dead and wounded to all of the Coalition's musket fire and artillery, or five men per minute on average.
Image
JULY 20TH 1969 - The day the entire world was looking up

It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth. I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth. I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- NEIL ARMSTRONG, MISSION COMMANDER, APOLLO 11

Signature dedicated to the greatest achievement of mankind.

MILDLY DERANGED PHYSICIST does not mind BREAKING the SOUND BARRIER, because it is INSURED. - Simon_Jester considering the problems of hypersonic flight for Team L.A.M.E.
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: The act of killing

Post by Thanas »

PeZook wrote:Now, more to the point: all the problems you just listed should affect artillerymen as well. Firing smoothbore guns over long ranges into a battlefield full of smoke. Possibly not the brandy ration, yes, but nonetheless artillery always fired (not true for soldiers in line), and when it fired it always fired at the intended target.
That is not a great feat considering the armies were bunched up in long lines. Also, I feel that you are still underestimating smoke. Have you ever fired a musket or seen the smoke of black powder? I would not expect to see anything after the first salvo, certainly not after the third.

If you ever happen to be in Florida, go to St. Augustine. They have mock gun friing with real black powder. One cannon firing and the whole bastion where it was standing on was coughing and couldn't see much.
I mean, the 200-man regiment mentioned above should be devastated in the first couple salvos. Even if Prussian accuracy results would drop by an order of magnitude under battle conditions, that would still be 7.5% accuracy, or 14 casualties per salvo, with five shots per minute for a well-drilled regiment...well...the engagement should be over within an hour or two.

Instead you got exchanges of fire that lasted for the entire day.
No, you do not. What is the evidence for that? You mostly get chess-piece style engagements (Let us not forget that these regiments came out of the tradition of pike and shot) with battle being joined for short periods of time before battered regiments would withdraw.

Look at the battles where we have detailed records of the troop movements. For example, Waterloo. This is probably the best documented battle we have of this time and what we find there is that the regiments did not last for a long time before withdrawing with quite horrendous casualties.
Seriously, let's see Austerlitz: 15 000 dead on the coalition side over 7 hours, or 2142 dead per hour (even if we assume most of those didn't happen during the rout). That's actually pretty pathetic, but the real killer are Napoleon's casualties: some 2000 dead and wounded to all of the Coalition's musket fire and artillery, or five men per minute on average.
It is not pathetic considering the course of the battle. Besides, we cannot trust Napoleon's casualties, like any victor he had a tendency to lie about them.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
User avatar
PeZook
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13237
Joined: 2002-07-18 06:08pm
Location: Poland

Re: The act of killing

Post by PeZook »

Thanas wrote:It is not pathetic considering the course of the battle. Besides, we cannot trust Napoleon's casualties, like any victor he had a tendency to lie about them.
I was under the impression that 2000 dead and wounded was the generally agreed upon figure, and Napoleon actually made up something far more absurd, like 200?
Thanas wrote: Look at the battles where we have detailed records of the troop movements. For example, Waterloo. This is probably the best documented battle we have of this time and what we find there is that the regiments did not last for a long time before withdrawing with quite horrendous casualties.
Fair point I'm not that convinced, either, I just think he makes a compelling case.

Grossman uses Gettysburg as his primary XIX century example...if I can get a detailed book on the battle and compare the maneuvers and casualty numbers and times, it should validate or falsify the hypothesis!
Image
JULY 20TH 1969 - The day the entire world was looking up

It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth. I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth. I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- NEIL ARMSTRONG, MISSION COMMANDER, APOLLO 11

Signature dedicated to the greatest achievement of mankind.

MILDLY DERANGED PHYSICIST does not mind BREAKING the SOUND BARRIER, because it is INSURED. - Simon_Jester considering the problems of hypersonic flight for Team L.A.M.E.
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: The act of killing

Post by Thanas »

Looking over at Waterloo, there are detailed casualty lists. I shall note that among some units, who fought fiercely against each other for several charges etc, the casualties appraoch anything from 80-92% dead and that does not include wounded who died after the battle. Other units at Waterloo had casualties ranging in the 40s, again excluding wounded who died after the battle. Even cavalry regiments had casualties ranging in the 20-65%.

All of this continues to lead me to believe that Grossman is mistaken about low killing rates. Inefficiency seems to have happened due to other factors as well.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: The act of killing

Post by Thanas »

Ghetto Edit:

This site goes into more detail:
http://napoleonistyka.atspace.com/infan ... _firefight
Especially the target practice and the long range accuracy is interesting.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
User avatar
Alyrium Denryle
Minister of Sin
Posts: 22224
Joined: 2002-07-11 08:34pm
Location: The Deep Desert
Contact:

Re: The act of killing

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Thanas wrote:Have those "accuracy" tests ever been performed under actual battle conditions?
AKA:
- You can't see anything more than 20 or so feet away due to the smoke.
- You are using 19th century "quality" gunpowder
- You are stark raving drunk due to having been given your battle ration of a belly full of brandy
Well, the accuracy tests are not the whole of it. Archeological digs of such battlefields find muskets that were reloaded but not fired numerous times (two cartridges in the barrel, four... eight) personal accounts of men in the civil war, WW1 WW2 etc of men who were not actually firing their weapons or who were deliberately not aiming at human targets--or who noticed others doing the same thing, officers noting in memoirs or letters that they had to watch their men like hawks to prevent this, changes in dehumanization training and fighting conditions between world wars and subsequently vietnam lead to a reduction in these non-firing or intentionally-missing-your-target figures, and it is a pretty stark change.
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/
Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences


There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.

Factio republicanum delenda est
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: The act of killing

Post by Thanas »

Sure, I know those as they are cited right within the link i provided.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
User avatar
PeZook
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13237
Joined: 2002-07-18 06:08pm
Location: Poland

Re: The act of killing

Post by PeZook »

Yeah, the link mentions all of that too, but attributes it to fear of death and injury while Grossman thinks it's the fear of having to kill people.
Image
JULY 20TH 1969 - The day the entire world was looking up

It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth. I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth. I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- NEIL ARMSTRONG, MISSION COMMANDER, APOLLO 11

Signature dedicated to the greatest achievement of mankind.

MILDLY DERANGED PHYSICIST does not mind BREAKING the SOUND BARRIER, because it is INSURED. - Simon_Jester considering the problems of hypersonic flight for Team L.A.M.E.
Post Reply