What should the German generals have done? (RAR)

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Re: What should the German generals have done? (RAR)

Post by phongn » 2013-02-14 05:58pm

Dominarch's Hope wrote:And by the time Europe was conventionally capable again, both the US and the USSR had nukes. So it was less about being shocked out of war and more about the stakes simply getting way too damn high to be worth it.
The two are not mutually exclusive, you know.
Sea Skimmer wrote:Good piston engine fighters could shoot down a B-29 just fine, the B-29 isn't a jet equipped B-36 and the B-36 took a long time to work right, and only then with a vast deal of constant effort. Most Soviet fighters were indeed low level beasts, but the Yak-9PD had a two speed supercharger and was intended to intercept German recon planes flying in the 40,000ft range. The La-9 also had such a power plant and good enough altitude performance for this job. Speed rather then height was the main problem countering the B-29. The La-7 should also be credible, I dunno on anything else but an awful lot of La-7s were built and they were very fast.
Whoops. Conceded on that point, then.
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Re: What should the German generals have done? (RAR)

Post by Carinthium » 2013-02-14 07:29pm

Come to think of it, what if our hypothetical German general focuses all his efforts on attempting to capture and enslave Jews like Einstein and their families and progress towards a nuclear bomb? If Germany has acess to nuclear weapons even two years before the Allies do(and the situation isn't too catastrophic), they may be able to force peace by the annihilation of major cities.

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Re: What should the German generals have done? (RAR)

Post by Grandmaster Jogurt » 2013-02-14 07:34pm

I don't think enslaving scientists and forcing them to work for the sake of a regime they despise that aims to murder every member of their religion or ethnicity is going to end up with the Germans ahead of the rest of the world in research. You'd end up with it being so sabotaged that it would probably never go anywhere. Even if you had magic Nazi brainwashing that would make the scientists entirely loyal, the differences in industry* would still likely put the German program behind the Allied one no matter how many top European scientists stay. Years ahead of the Allies looks absolutely impossible.

*IIRC there was a post made a year or so ago on this board about how Germany didn't have the necessary electricity surplus to run a decent nuclear program.

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Re: What should the German generals have done? (RAR)

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2013-02-14 07:39pm

Grandmaster Jogurt wrote:I don't think enslaving scientists and forcing them to work for the sake of a regime they despise that aims to murder every member of their religion or ethnicity is going to end up with the Germans ahead of the rest of the world in research. You'd end up with it being so sabotaged that it would probably never go anywhere. Even if you had magic Nazi brainwashing that would make the scientists entirely loyal, the differences in industry* would still likely put the German program behind the Allied one no matter how many top European scientists stay. Years ahead of the Allies looks absolutely impossible.

*IIRC there was a post made a year or so ago on this board about how Germany didn't have the necessary electricity surplus to run a decent nuclear program.
I know that such a "scientific labour camp" would not help the Nazis directly, but how much would it hurt the Manhattan project if the Germans arrested and held all the scientists they historically discarded? Meitner, Szilard, Wigner, Teller (I think), Fermi to name but a few. If they did not join the AMericans, what effect might that have had?
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Re: What should the German generals have done? (RAR)

Post by CaptHawkeye » 2013-02-14 08:01pm

You're assuming the Germans have access to a crystal ball and can see how successful the nuke will be during a time it was considered by many to either impractical, overrated, or downright crank science.

On top of that, the A-bomb is a weapon that will require a long-term investment in weapons R&D. The Nazis are not into that, they need to fight a short war, not a long one. Only weapons that bring an immediate return really fit in their plans. This was one of many reasons the whole project was cancelled in 1943.
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Re: What should the German generals have done? (RAR)

Post by Dominarch's Hope » 2013-02-14 08:51pm

Oh any timeline were the Nazis get the bomb first requires massive and incredulous change to the timeline and would halfway be about simply preventing America from getting it and killing off a bunch of their scientist and having the Nazi state much different.

But would the Nazis get the bomb? Assuming they survive, of course they would. Likely at the same time or even later as the USSR.

Now, had Hitler forced through the investment and Heisenberg hadnt fucked up the numbers big time, and they used the much less energy intensive method of enriching uranium than what America initially used, then maybe they end up with some bombs to use by 1943. But they need dozens if not more than a hundred by that point, so yeah....

Now, had the Nazis managed to kidnap/capture most of the physicists and hold them captive while they secured power, then maybe. But then, thats expecting way too much compentency from Nazi Intelligence. And the money required would slow down re-armament to a certain degree.

So the Nazis getting the bomb in time for WWII is almost completely out of the question. Now, the Kaiserreich after remaining intact post WWI or a bunch of Fascist who arent nearly so anti-semitic and manage to keep most of the scientist and realize early on the possible importance of the Atomic project then maybe.

It would also require failures in British saboteur operations.

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Re: What should the German generals have done? (RAR)

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2013-02-14 09:08pm

CaptHawkeye wrote:You're assuming the Germans have access to a crystal ball and can see how successful the nuke will be during a time it was considered by many to either impractical, overrated, or downright crank science.

On top of that, the A-bomb is a weapon that will require a long-term investment in weapons R&D. The Nazis are not into that, they need to fight a short war, not a long one. Only weapons that bring an immediate return really fit in their plans. This was one of many reasons the whole project was cancelled in 1943.
I'm not sure if this is directed at me, but I'll bite anyhow.

Certainly I agree the Germans would not be able to force all these brilliant minds to build them an a-bomb, that's never going to work for the reasons Grandmaster Jogurt explained. I was wondering what effect those scientists might have by not being able to flee to America. How much might it slowed down the Manhatten Project if they didn't have the help from German scientists they historically did.

For instnace, what might have happenned if Einstein, Szilard and co had not written to FDR in 41? Or if Einstein had not been around to help convince the Belgians to hand over their stockpiles of Uranium ore in Africa?

Those scientists would never help Hitler directly, but might they unwillingly help him indirectly by not being able to help his enemies?
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Re: What should the German generals have done? (RAR)

Post by Dominarch's Hope » 2013-02-14 11:14pm

The effects would mean that Japan is conventionally invaded on schedule, or they delay it for about 6 months and let starvation take its course, THEN land and stomp all over the Japanese defenders. Which might end up as a default genocide the way things were going. The Soviets arent that scary to or in the context of Japan. Its the US with the massive seaborne lift capacity and grude to bare. And afterwards, the Soviets can be evicted by force from the Island if they refuse to leave, which I doubt they would anyways.

But in order for the Nazis to get nukes by mid war or just early enough, you would have to re-write major and deep parts of history fairly thoroughly and while your at it, you might as well take a buzzsaw to a bunch of the Corporate derived inefficiencies and stuff like the Tiger still being built after the Panther was in full production. And you might as well have the Sturm44 being built in large numbers asap, possibly replacing SMGs. Seriously, with the scale of re-writes, you might as well 'pep up' the entirety of the Nazi war effort.

And quite frankly, getting America to go Fascist/Nazi-equivalent or getting Britain to go Fascist and ally with Hitler is more plausible and doable.

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Re: What should the German generals have done? (RAR)

Post by K. A. Pital » 2013-02-15 04:22am

Are you really that dumb that you think the US would try to "evict the USSR by force" just after WWII? Hint: it did not try to pull such shit off anywhere in areas with separate occupation. Even though it had nuclear weapons. And why would the USSR willingly leave a part of Japan? Because you want it for yourself? Seriously, how does this even relate to reality?
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Re: What should the German generals have done? (RAR)

Post by phongn » 2013-02-15 01:27pm

Dominarch's Hope wrote:But in order for the Nazis to get nukes by mid war or just early enough, you would have to re-write major and deep parts of history fairly thoroughly and while your at it, you might as well take a buzzsaw to a bunch of the Corporate derived inefficiencies and stuff like the Tiger still being built after the Panther was in full production. And you might as well have the Sturm44 being built in large numbers asap, possibly replacing SMGs. Seriously, with the scale of re-writes, you might as well 'pep up' the entirety of the Nazi war effort.
Stas has already talked about the other half of your post, so here's addressing this-half. You're still concentrating on shiny toys: that isn't pepping up their war effort. Have you considered what the ammunition requirements would be if you suddenly gave the Wehrmacht a bunch of assault rifles - when their logistics are already strained? On why the Tiger was so important and why to keep it even when the Panther was being built (or why the Panther shouldn't have been built)?

P.S. it's not "corporate-derived inefficiencies"; the whole of the Nazi state was inherently inefficient.
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Re: What should the German generals have done? (RAR)

Post by Dominarch's Hope » 2013-02-15 09:05pm

Stas Bush wrote:Are you really that dumb that you think the US would try to "evict the USSR by force" just after WWII? Hint: it did not try to pull such shit off anywhere in areas with separate occupation. Even though it had nuclear weapons. And why would the USSR willingly leave a part of Japan? Because you want it for yourself? Seriously, how does this even relate to reality?
With what Navy is the USSR going to force the issue in regards to Japan? It will leave Japan or it will watch its forces there starve and die.

Phongn, you literally missed the entire point of that little tidbit. And no, the Tiger was stupid and had damn near zero impact because there simply wasnt enough of them and it drank fuel like almost nothing else. While a Panther with a long 88 would have been sufficiently superior to have more combat endurance.


And the Tiger's stated role of a breakout tank is pointless since it spent almost its entire existence on the defensive and thats where it really shined to begin with. Long range defensive engagements on flat open terrain. There just plain and simply were never enough Tigers to do much with. Even if they had all been concentrated on one battlefront of the East, it would have been just stalling a week or two.

The only theater where the Tiger tank being concentrated is the North African theater where the British only had so many tanks and almost zero capable of defeating the Tiger head on. But even then, thr Tiger would only be worth it on the defensive against the British counterattack and American landings.


But the point of the little tidbit was to glancingly mention the surface stuff that could have been tweaked. To easily and simply demonstrate the impossibility of Germany getting the bomb or it really even mattering assuming the war goes as it did.


Germany would have need 100+ 20 kiloton devices by mid 1943 and no later. You might as well optimize the entire Nazi war effort to its highest possible Zenith and then also fuck over the allies in key areas.


Its just incredulously ASB.

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Re: What should the German generals have done? (RAR)

Post by Straha » 2013-02-15 09:45pm

With what army will the United States fight the Russians in Germany? Where will the United Statesfind the political and economic will to pull a 360 on the USSR and start pushing them around? For what reasons?


You're the epitome of 'a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing'. Please stop. Try to listen and learn.
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Re: What should the German generals have done? (RAR)

Post by Dominarch's Hope » 2013-02-16 01:06am

Evict them from Japan you fucking moron. Stalin wasnt about to start another war over fucking Japan and recognized it as the American prize as much as Berlin was his.

As for Europe? How would he keep his troops motivated beyond German soil? How would he keep his war machine running with nothing to feed it? You DO realize thats half the reason he demobilized so many of his troops right? To put them to the fields? And they were scraping the bottom of the barrel in terms of humanpower, they had no more millions to throw away except what they already had without brutally sacrificing industrial production, not to mention that Allied Strategic bombing could fuck up his key railhubs just as they had Germanies, and that Baku would be lit on fire etc etc etc.

The actual "Eviction" would be telling Stalin to back off of Japan, and Stalin conceding. Because he just didnt care enough about Japan or the Far East and knew that if push came to shove, any soldiers on Japanese Islands were complete write-offs.

Meanwhile, the Red Army in Europe in the immediate aftermath of Berlin, needed time to breath and recuperate. And they couldnt drive the Western forces off the continent in a single blow, much less two blows. Conventionally?

The Red Army would *Have* to drive off the Western Forces off the continent in 4 months, or they get driven back to Russian territory eventually. It wouldnt be a Germany with piss poor logistics and a severely inferior amount of tanks and a Luftwaffe that is being ground down and a industrial base that is constantly being hampered by a bombing campaign and its own incompetency.

It would be fighting the most industrially powerful nation in the world whose homeland cant be touched and whose airpower in both quality and quantity is already arguably superior and will only get stronger, whose armored forces are close to the equal and will surpass them and even more importantly, hasnt been bled white by 4 years of total war and whose forces arent ever on the verge of starving and never will be for the entirety of the war and whose logistical chain is completely secure from any and all relevant sabotage and interruption from its enemies.

But there wouldnt be a fight anyways because Stalin wouldnt risk one over Japan. And most of the Red Army has no desire to fight those who were nominally there allies, many of which had eaten American originated food and damn well knew it.

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Re: What should the German generals have done? (RAR)

Post by Straha » 2013-02-16 01:26am

You put me in a very awkward position. I ardently and without question believe that debate, in almost any form, is unequivocally good and that there is never a scenario where continuing discussion is a bad thing, even if one side is viewed as morally wrong (or insincere) by the other. I mean this totally to the point where, in a literal sense, I am dedicating my life to this stance.

Yet when I look at your posts I am thoroughly disheartened. You don't read, you don't think, you don't even respond as much as you simply restate your opinion ad infinitum until it becomes completely untenable, when you then pick up camp and move on like a demented nomad to the next completely contextually clueless opinion. Brickwalls I have seen before, and there are ways to engage them, ditto the clueless and the ignorant. But you? You're some kind of special blend of the worst of all worlds that seems to make even trying to engage with you pointless and self-destructive. It does more than anything else to challenge my beliefs in a way I have only rarely and fleetingly encountered.


Were I a faithful man I would think that maybe you were a special test, not a person as much as a divine (demonic?) intervention sent here to test my faith and values. Luckily I'm not a faithful man so I don't really see any downside to simply shaking my head at your ignorance and walking away from the thread for now, while those more involved/less busy than I try to scale your Everestian peaks of idiocy.
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Re: What should the German generals have done? (RAR)

Post by K. A. Pital » 2013-02-16 08:43am

Stark wrote:Is this a first time for you with alt-history? Because man, they are ALL like this. Just stay the fuck away.
Seconded. There's a reason Thanas and I flush the worst of this stale shit from History. It's like talking to cancer.
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Re: What should the German generals have done? (RAR)

Post by The Duchess of Zeon » 2013-02-16 10:48am

That's the best description of these webboard Nazis I've ever heard.
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Re: What should the German generals have done? (RAR)

Post by Dominarch's Hope » 2013-02-16 11:08am

You havent even addressed any of the claims or anything, Straha, youve just bitched and moaned about some supposed Brick Wall bullshit while pandering to the crowd.


Youre the one thats a goddamn brick wall. Bitch some more, its almost amusing.


Unless you actually think that the USSR could afford to attempt to drive to the French coast, when Stalin himself pointed out how stupid it was.


Bitvh some more. Please. Show me some more of SDN's well-known Echo Chamber circlejerking bullshit while you miss or willingly ignore the entire central points of the posts to show off to the crowd.

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Re: What should the German generals have done? (RAR)

Post by CaptHawkeye » 2013-02-16 11:28am

You'd think it would occur to him why everyone on the website hates him. Is it just him? No, of course not. It has to be everyone else.

As for the echo chamber, sorry but that isn't your problem. Oh don't get me wrong, SDN totally has an establishment and they're not always right. But plenty of the people you've pissed off on this forum are not members of that bunch. Flagg, Stark, Thanas and myself are some who are known for routinely pissing into the face of SDN's resident in-crowd. We've all found you to have both ridiculously self-indulgent views and an immature temperament.

Call it a hunch, but I foresee you in the Parting Shots forum soon.
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Re: What should the German generals have done? (RAR)

Post by Thanas » 2013-02-16 12:10pm

Dominarch's Hope is gone. Thread locked.

May we never see such idiocy again.
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