Greetings from Darth Mencken

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Darth Mencken
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Greetings from Darth Mencken

Post by Darth Mencken »

Been meaning to subscribe here, finally got around to it :-) Hello, all.

About my screen name. I chose it some years ago to reflect (what is most of the time) my philosophical views, and attitude toward life. Also one of my favorite 20th century personalities (Mencken, not Vader). Tho I welcome whatever brightness and niceness comes along, I freely expect, and accept, that s#!^ will always happen, and the most idealistic crusade is inevitably undermined by Human greed, vanity, and unwillingness to compromise (Not naming any R/L persons or parties here, in truth all could show improvement).

I also freely admit, I wouldn't make much of a Sith Lord for real! Not only would I never under any circumstances butcher a bunch of trusting kids with a lightsabre or choke a pregnant woman using the Force, I simply don't see how something that draws upon hatred and anger can ever lead to immortality.

Now, for the BIG confession: I am a long time member of Orions Arm, and am the contributor of a number (not the hugest number, and mostly awhile back) of a number of elements there that some of you are familiar with.

Most particularly, the gengineered Human suicide bombers: Homo Jihadi.

I note that these in particular have been singled-out for special criticism on this forum not too long ago. I'm not gonna whine. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, no matter what it is (a view my non-Dark Side namesake would no doubt identify with).

Let me just say, first and foremost, I intended the Homo Jihadi to be tongue-in-cheek from the outset. OA does pride itself on trying to be hard science. Such does not rule-out, AFAICT, anything in the Jihadi write-up as written. Also, "hard science" by no means equates to being stone-cold serious in all things. I freely admit, some aspects of OA strike me as beyond way-out. As a newb there once upon a time, I criticized some aspects there (the moldies/erotogini, and Wups/Wupistas, spring immediately to mind), but have since tried to be more open-minded and less critical (tho still not sure I'd personally want to jump in the sack with any of the above).

Also, the only aspect of the Homo Jihadi which does not exist in R/L yet, is the genetic engineering done on Humans. Everything else (including indoctrinating kids from as young as preschool age into thinking being a suicide attacker is the most worthwhile vocation there is), is already being done in R/L (no need to say by whom!), and has been for awhile.

Also, besides the most straightforward concealing of a remote-detonated explosive inside a willing subject's rectum (Gawd, before that actually happened, I would've said it was just a sick joke!), Al-Qaeda and other groups with similar MO's (Hamas in particular I believe) are rumored to be experimenting with implantable, or even "injectable" I'm almost sure I heard, explosives! I'm guessing anything from fake kneecaps or other bones, to possibly boob implants for female suicide bombers (Hmm, do female suicide bombers get 72 male virgins in Paradise to service them for eternity?).

One problem here is, almost anything implanted in the body would likely show up on the latest airport scanners and similar devices.

But, if the explosives were dispersed thoughout the subject's body, literally permeating their bones and possibly other tissues, indistinct and inseparable from such . . .

And as pointed-out above, programming tots from pre-school age with the thought that some might be recruits for suicide bombings in 10, 15, or 2o years. Been being done for awhile now.

As I said, the genetic engineering of Humans is THE ONLY thing that isn't reality already, yet.

Once again, greetings, and thank you all :-)

Darth Mencken, Dark Lord of Iconoclasm
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Re: Greetings from Darth Mencken

Post by Iroscato »

Y'know, reading that post at 5:51 in the morning, barely alive, is a fucking frightening experience. But er...hi, I guess?
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Re: Greetings from Darth Mencken

Post by ray245 »

May I ask why are you posting this in the SLAM forum? I fail to see what has your post got to do with science, morality or logic.
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Re: Greetings from Darth Mencken

Post by Darth Mencken »

Chimaera - Sorry to frighten you :-) Is it my screen name, or the casual way I talk about gengineered self-destructing Humans?

ray245 - Please forgive this humble newb. Which forum would be most appropriate?

This one seemed at least kind of, since it was the "logic" of the Homo Jihadi premise that drew the harshest criticism. Once again, to the member who was motivated to excoriate my creation so mercilessly, everyone is entitled to their opinion no matter what it is (Plus, a Sith Lord never whines - Vader needed to be reminded of this after being fitted with his new suit!).

I intended the Homo Jihadi to be tongue-in-cheek from the outset. Hard science doesn't rule-out such any more than it does ordinary Humans sticking bombs up their backsides, or the mindset and ideology that leads them to do such (The laws of physics in no way preclude stupidity, fanaticism, or just plain misanthropy).

And truly, the gengineering of Humans is the only part that doesn't exist yet in R/L! Am I incorrect there?
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Re: Greetings from Darth Mencken

Post by SCRawl »

Moved from SLAM. I would say something like "Next time use the New member introductions thread", but by definition that is a pointless statement.
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Re: Greetings from Darth Mencken

Post by Broomstick »

Could you perhaps provide a link to your H. jihadi? It sounds intriguing (in an oogy, sick sort of way).
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Re: Greetings from Darth Mencken

Post by Junghalli »

Just curious, are you the same Darth Mencken who posts on my message board?

I'm Somes J over there.
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Re: Greetings from Darth Mencken

Post by Darth Mencken »

Junghalli wrote:Just curious, are you the same Darth Mencken who posts on my message board?

I'm Somes J over there.
What, are there other DM's :-)
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Re: Greetings from Darth Mencken

Post by Darth Mencken »

Broomstick wrote:Could you perhaps provide a link to your H. jihadi? It sounds intriguing (in an oogy, sick sort of way).
http://www.orionsarm.com/eg-article/4ac6247bd1611

Request granted >:-)
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Re: Greetings from Darth Mencken

Post by Thanas »

That concept is utterly stupid.
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Re: Greetings from Darth Mencken

Post by Darth Mencken »

Thanas wrote:That concept is utterly stupid.
That means it can't, or won't possibly ever, happen, right?

I don't think Homo Jihadi, or anything EXACTLY like, will exist in R/L (the time needed for anything Human-derived to reach maturity, and the success rate for any gengineering specimens now, are the biggest obstacles).

And I sure as s#!^ wouldn't want them to!

Much more likely, those individuals and groups who've long-since displayed an inclination to use Homer Sapes as explosives delivery systems, will just keep finding new and "better" ways to adapt EXISTING, ordinary Humans to this purpose (Especially creepy, having someone be a bomb-carrier w/o them knowing it!).

But - well - how intelligent, sensible, and logical are suicide bombers/bombings, and the mentality/ideology behind such now? You talk as if such were a barrier as impenetrable as the speed of light is now.

Illogical, stupid, senseless, pointless, etc. in no way equate to impossible. Or even "unlikely" for that matter.
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Re: Greetings from Darth Mencken

Post by Broomstick »

I could certainly pick apart some of the details, but suicide bombers are a very real thing in our world, and there has been at least one incident involving internal explosives shoved up the ass of the would-be assassin in the attempted killing of Mohammed bin Nayef. Between that, and cocaine being smuggled inside breast implants the concept - suicide killers harboring explosives inside their body in sufficient quantities as to be dangerous - isn't outrageous.

I think, however, gene engineering is overkill for this. One need only implant sufficient explosive as to cause enough damage for the desired blast, and putting bags of stuff inside the human body is rather routine these days. Of course, it's usually to either enhance appearance or reconstruct appearances damaged by injury or illness. It need not even damage the carrier prior to detonation if sufficiently packaged in material resistant to breakdown within the human body.
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Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

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Re: Greetings from Darth Mencken

Post by Thanas »

Darth Mencken wrote:That means it can't, or won't possibly ever, happen, right?

I don't think Homo Jihadi, or anything EXACTLY like, will exist in R/L (the time needed for anything Human-derived to reach maturity, and the success rate for any gengineering specimens now, are the biggest obstacles).

And I sure as s#!^ wouldn't want them to!
If there exist an organization which has the skill to make explosives that small and undetectable then it won't need to engineer them on to humans.
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Re: Greetings from Darth Mencken

Post by Broomstick »

The explosives don't need to be actually undetectable, they just need to get past typical security. Body-packed drugs aren't undetectable, but they are detected infrequently enough people are known to engage in the smuggling practice multiple times. I don't know how much explosive you need to make a viable suicide bomber, but if it's small enough to be packed in a vest it's small enough to be implanted in the human body. Get someone who was formerly very fat and has lots of extra skin, stuff 'em full of the shit and then detonate them. That sort of surgery isn't rocket science, especially if you don't need to have the "patient" survive long term. The gene engineering part is ridiculous, but the concept - internal packing of explosives - isn't.
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Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

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Re: Greetings from Darth Mencken

Post by Simon_Jester »

The main problem with the genetic engineering approach is that it makes it very expensive (and long-range) to raise a human bomb. The group that does it needs to stay together for 15-20 years before they get any attackers, will probably have to cope with high death rates (including accidental explosions) among their candidates, and when all's said and done doesn't get anything much more dangerous than they'd have by just recruiting an existing willing candidate of comparable age, which is SO MUCH cheaper.
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Re: Greetings from Darth Mencken

Post by Broomstick »

Naw, you don't have to wait 15-20 years... think about it. A 12 year old can look so cute and innocent... Child bombs. Toddler bombs. Think really, really evil and sacrifice the children. 4-5 years is a more plausible length of time for a group to stay together (the 9/11 pilots spent years on their project, probably 3-5). The little tyke bombs don't even need to know what they are, just bring the kid into a crowd and let him go >boom<. There's no reason to wait until the bomblet is adult, is there?

But yeah, recruiting regular people for this is cheaper, quicker, and more practical.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

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Re: Greetings from Darth Mencken

Post by madd0ct0r »

As the article itself notes, 'naturally secreted' chemicals will always show up in trace amounts in sweat, urine ect, and thus the Gene-hadis would be pretty detectable by sniffer dogs or chem sniffers. Both are in wide use around the world already.

Inserting the explosives in little bags would prevent leaking. It'd also prevent the explosive reacting and interfering with body chemistry. I can't find anything for penthyle online - what is it?
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Re: Greetings from Darth Mencken

Post by Broomstick »

Is it made up by the OP? I've never heard of it either.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

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Re: Greetings from Darth Mencken

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

"Penthyle" is just an alternate spelling of "pentyl". It's not used very often, but I think it is a more "European" spelling.

In any case, it is just a common organic carbon compound. It can be used to make perchloric acid, which is an explosive, which can be set off merely by coming into contact with organic matter.
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Re: Greetings from Darth Mencken

Post by madd0ct0r »

perchloric acid is an oxidiser, not an 'explosive'.
. It is a powerful oxidizer, but its aqueous solutions up to approximately 70% are generally safe, only showing strong acid features and no oxidizing properties.
So heaven knows how you get the % higher then that. Since it's so acidic, you'd need a 2nd stomach to store it, instead of laying it in the bones, which would, in turn lead to possible detection. Possibly you could dehydrate the Gene-hadi in the 24hrs before the suicide run, but I'm really not seeing how they'd have internal control over their big moment.
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Re: Greetings from Darth Mencken

Post by Simon_Jester »

Broomstick wrote:Naw, you don't have to wait 15-20 years... think about it. A 12 year old can look so cute and innocent... Child bombs. Toddler bombs. Think really, really evil and sacrifice the children. 4-5 years is a more plausible length of time for a group to stay together (the 9/11 pilots spent years on their project, probably 3-5). The little tyke bombs don't even need to know what they are, just bring the kid into a crowd and let him go >boom<. There's no reason to wait until the bomblet is adult, is there?
The description given states that they did wait that long, in this (poorly thought out) story.

Frankly you'd still have problems even in infancy, and it would still not be cheap- as you say, recruiting makes so much more sense. Otherwise all these groups would already be taking children to raise them as indoctrinated would-be bombers from infancy, without bothering with genetics. And they're not, because they live in a place where desperate manpower willing to sacrifice itself in an act of violence is cheap.
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Re: Greetings from Darth Mencken

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

madd0ct0r wrote:perchloric acid is an oxidiser, not an 'explosive'.
Okay, fine, "perchloric acid is widely used in applications related to the production of explosive material." Happy? I wasn't going for a chemistry lecture, just a quick sense of what the word "penthyle" implied.

As for how you could possibly manipulate body chemistry to actually USE perchloric acid or any related pentyl-based products ... well, that doesn't seem entirely feasible.
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Re: Greetings from Darth Mencken

Post by Darth Mencken »

All valid points, everyone :-) I'm gonna try to address all of em:

1) I don't actually expect Homo Jihadi, PRECISELY as depicted in my write-up, to ever actually be reality (issues of practicality and convenience, as pointed-out by just about everyone who's responded - Plus H. Jihadi were intended to be tongue-in-cheek from the start). And I sure as hell don't actually WANT them to be!

2) One advantage H. Jihadi would have over ordinary Humans with implanted explosives, is Jihadis' explosives would be even less detectable by airport scanners and the like (which will surely get better in coming decades) than bags or other explosive implants. Because Jihadis' explosives are dispersed throughout their skeletons and other calcium-containing tissues, rather than in relatively discrete, obvious packages like an implanted bomb. An especially observant X-ray professional MIGHT spot especially subtle differences in a Jihadi's bone density or structure, which could just as well be caused by other bone or health conditions that occur within the Human norm. H. Jihadi were designed to defeat such technological detection (If you SAW a H. Jihadi with your own eyes, they'd look perfectly Human, a little sickly probably, and most likely of Middle Eastern descent). Unexpected, HUGE weakness - They smell unmistakably different to anything with a sensitive nose. An explosives-sniffing animal who knows what to look for can detect H. Jihadi quite reliably. They defeat hi-tech detection, but low-tech gets them! Oops!

3) Time needed from when you first begin tweaking Human fertilized ova, to when you have usable suicide bombers. Agreed, this is a practical hurdle. But the fact that organizations such a Hamas already program and indoctrinate children with the expectation that some will elect to be suicide bombers 10-20 years hence, makes this less implausible. And Hamas, among other SB-using orgs, has been around awhile. And the attitudes and ideologies that encourage suicide bombings (Death to America; Death to Israel) have shown themselves to be quite durable.

4) High mortality and other failure rate among developing suicide bombers (everything from miscarriages to possibly accidental explosions). Well, of course. Them's the breaks! Any group that would create something like H. Jihadi in the first place, already doesn't value Human life very highly.

5) H. Jihadi being sent out as little kids, 5-12 years old. I suppose they could, if a little kid all by themself on a bus, plane, or in a packed supermarket, bus terminal, airline terminal, etc. wouldn't attract much attention. Hmm, a whole pack of such junior Jihadi could even masquerade as a preschool or grade school class on a field trip, with their handler masquerading as their teacher. "Okay, kids, time to go meet Allah!" Okay, now we're getting REALLY dark!

6) Penthyl as the specific explosive used. Someone on OA, who I believe had a backround in biology and genetics, mentioned that Penthyl could be biologically-produced. And mentioned the possibility of cockroaches so gengineered, probably conditioned or remote controlled to crawl into or cluster around a vehicle's fuel tank or ammo store. <boom> I just figured if it could be done with one organism, it could be done with others. And Humans (or closely-derived bionts - H. Jihadi are still Human to greater than 99% confidence) make more willing, enthusiastic servants for Allah!

7) Penthyl, IIRC, is also quite stable. Detonator capss needed to make it blow, need to be about twice as powerful as detonator caps for TNT. That's why, in the write-up, I mention that H. Jihadi often have a detonator implanted in a false tooth, most often. Many folks have false teeth and/or fillings, plus something this small might not be noticed. The detonator is activated by the Jihadi either snapping their teeth hard, or possibly by "gnashing" them.

Well, I think that's everything. Once again, I don't expect - or want - H. Jihadi to ever be real. But really, the gengineering of Humans is the only thing about them that isn't reality yet.

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Re: Greetings from Darth Mencken

Post by Dr Roberts »

Why are all terrorists Muslim in your eyes?
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Re: Greetings from Darth Mencken

Post by salm »

Dr Roberts wrote:Why are all terrorists Muslim in your eyes?
Maybe I missed something, but how does that follow from what he wrote?
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