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thejester wrote:Cardinal of the Kremlin was easily his best book. Larry Bond was essentially a co-author of RSR, IIRC.

He was and that is probably why RSR is at least not completely "USA MILWANK 101".

Yeah that was most refreshing. The US actually has bad shit happen to it, rather than that bullshit desert war in Executive Orders. One brigade of National Guard versus two heavy Divisions? Obviously the US easily wins! [/groan]

Don't fuck with the National Guard, man. They'll ruin your shit.

Eternal_Freedom wrote:Yeah that was most refreshing. The US actually has bad shit happen to it, rather than that bullshit desert war in Executive Orders. One brigade of National Guard versus two heavy Divisions? Obviously the US easily wins! [/groan]

That's because Arabs can't fight wars and Russian doctrine plays right into Murrican hands!

Although with Executive Orders, the greatest thing was the entire political ploy by whatshisname to create the greater islamic republic.

Step 1: Attack the US with bioweapons that do not touch their military-industrial complex at all

Step 2: Invade neighbors

Step 3: Pray really hard the US won't retaliate with WMDs, or that their untouched military can't stop you from achieving Step 2.


That's saying nothing of the fact that an attempt to create a united islamic republic from Iran, Iraq and Saudi Arabia is insane in the first place and would never work, and thus whatshisname would get couped out of power approximately five minutes after he pushed his plan...Clancy even blindly stumbles into some of the problems, but ignores or dimisses them

I can think of one good thing to say about Tom Clancy. He's not Dale Brown.

all his books should be preserved forever in the 'ruined literature with covers featuring fighter planes and stylised maps' exhibit

saying one of his books is 'better' or 'less bad' than another is like saying you'd rather have your finger cut off than your dick

PeZook wrote:Although with Executive Orders, the greatest thing was the entire political ploy by whatshisname to create the greater islamic republic.

Step 1: Attack the US with bioweapons that do not touch their military-industrial complex at all

Step 2: Invade neighbors

Step 3: Pray really hard the US won't retaliate with WMDs, or that their untouched military can't stop you from achieving Step 2.

This IS al-Qaeda and the Taliban's plan.

Step 1: Launch an attack that devastates the US. Unfortunately for al-Qaeda, the group lacks the ability to manufacture sufficiently lethal bio-weapons. The September 11 attacks are arguably a substitute for this attack.

Step 2: From Afghanistan, infiltrate Pakistan- infiltrate becomes "invade" once the Pakistani government throws its lot with the US. From Pakistan, inflitrate/invade Kashmir- which is part of India!

Step 3: Bin Laden actually WANTED the US to retaliate with WMDs. He wanted to unite the Muslim world against a common enemy; and to start a world war in which all peoples must convert to Islam, or die. What he got was a drone war; tough luck.

That's saying nothing of the fact that an attempt to create a united islamic republic from Iran, Iraq and Saudi Arabia is insane in the first place and would never work, and thus whatshisname would get couped out of power approximately five minutes after he pushed his plan...

In case you haven't noticed, al-Qaeda ACTUALLY TRIED to create a United Islamic Republic from Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and nations such as Afghanistan, Pakistan...

I'm curious, in all the "OMG the US won again?!" whining... how many times has the USA actually lost battles and wars? This is an actual honest question.

I know Vietnam, and obviously there are engagements that were lost in WWII (You're welcome Europe, except Gemrany and Italy ) , but I mean in recent Tom Clancy time? Which times did the US not win?

Sidewinder wrote: This IS al-Qaeda and the Taliban's plan..

Al-Kaida is a terrorist organization, while Executive Orders had a nation trying to do the same. Al-Kaida would benefit from a US overreaction and use of WMDs, unlike a national actor. Al-Kaida has a distributed command structure divided into cells which conventional armies have trouble destroying ; A national actor is very vulnerable to tanks.

Havok wrote: I know Vietnam, and obviously there are engagements that were lost in WWII (You're welcome Europe, except Gemrany and Italy ) , but I mean in recent Tom Clancy time? Which times did the US not win?

Oh, come on. It's not that the US wins at all, it's that it wins effortlessly and easily and without any setbacks whatsoever against enemies too incompetent to ever feel threatening, whether it is fighting a set-piece battle against an overwhelming enemy force, tries to run off the Soviet Navy or attempts a deep penetration special op to destroy Chinese ICBMs.

You need drama in fiction ; Clancy writes technothrillers which stopped thrilling decades ago.

PeZook wrote:
You need drama in fiction ; Clancy writes technothrillers which stopped thrilling decades ago.

PeZook... he did write them decades ago, two of them to be exact. But out of obscurity if Clancy is not the one to be pegged as writing the techothrillers that thrill, who is?

Mr Bean wrote: PeZook... he did write them decades ago, two of them to be exact. But out of obscurity if Clancy is not the one to be pegged as writing the techothrillers that thrill, who is?

I can't come up with a decent technothriller author off the top of my head, sadly...sadly because it's one of those things I'd really like to irrationally love again

Havok wrote:I'm curious, in all the "OMG the US won again?!" whining... how many times has the USA actually lost battles and wars? This is an actual honest question.

I know Vietnam, and obviously there are engagements that were lost in WWII (You're welcome Europe, except Gemrany and Italy ) , but I mean in recent Tom Clancy time? Which times did the US not win?

Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia, Vietnam, Korea are the big ones. The US has actually lost (or stalemated) more major wars it entered than it has won.

Connor MacLeod wrote:I can think of one good thing to say about Tom Clancy. He's not Dale Brown.

Or Patrick Robinson who is the worst there is in terms of US milwank. The one with the worst Mary Sue's as well.

PeZook wrote:

Mr Bean wrote: PeZook... he did write them decades ago, two of them to be exact. But out of obscurity if Clancy is not the one to be pegged as writing the techothrillers that thrill, who is?

I can't come up with a decent technothriller author off the top of my head, sadly...sadly because it's one of those things I'd really like to irrationally love again

Stephen Coonts is one who manages to write good fiction without having the antagonists be idiots.

Havok wrote:I'm curious, in all the "OMG the US won again?!" whining... how many times has the USA actually lost battles and wars? This is an actual honest question.

I know Vietnam, and obviously there are engagements that were lost in WWII (You're welcome Europe, except Gemrany and Italy ) , but I mean in recent Tom Clancy time? Which times did the US not win?

its not about how small your national dick is

its about how its not interesting dramatically to see yet another rehash of super advanced overwhelming force america kills people it doesn't like effortlessly

I've read most of the Ryan books... I don't remember it being quite that bad.
And usually, IIRC it is mostly due to technological superiority, that allows the USA guys to always win, more than "GUNG -HO! USA USA!!".

I mean we do out spend every nation on Earth combined like 4 times over on something on our fancy military stuff.

man clancy stuff got way worse than the ryan stuff

do you want to know how many times america tech ninjas kill mexicans and or mexicans invade vegas? :V its the fascistic thing where the books are both about how america is super powerful tech wizards of right wing toughness who don't back down never ever OH SAY CAN YOU SEE... but also at threat from any and all brown people or slanty people or whatever with their cardboard guns and insidious drug problems who can miraculously threaten america in a stupid way so they can be trivially destroyed by the amazing and glorious military industrial complex for whom your freedoms were sacrificed praise lockheed

just cause the later stuff is even worse doesn't make the orgiianl stuff good by comparison

Sure it is that bad. Because even when you take away all the technological stuff, Clancy still has the Americans be the best guys there are.

I vaguely recall in Cadinal of the Kremlin how there was some lesbian KGB spy or something who sold out one noble scienteist because she wanted to put the moves on his girlfriend/fiance or something, and it lead to the HRT showing up, or something. Been ages since I read that book.


Then again if it had been Dale Brown we would have had power armoured US supper troopers backed up by laser and attack drone armed super stealth doomplanes and remotely piloted robot battle droids to the rescue. Who possibly were a mercenary outfit/private sector venture/freedom force/Batman Analog.

PeZook wrote: I can't come up with a decent technothriller author off the top of my head, sadly...sadly because it's one of those things I'd really like to irrationally love again

The Aden Effect


Which doesn't have any "and then war happens". In fact, it's more a buddy-cop book that's about the US trying to get a sweetheart oil deal while competing with the Chinese. No "Raahhh Freedom Democracy 9/11 arrgh!" which describes 99% of the technothrillers out there.

Connor MacLeod wrote:I vaguely recall in Cadinal of the Kremlin how there was some lesbian KGB spy or something who sold out one noble scienteist because she wanted to put the moves on his girlfriend/fiance or something, and it lead to the HRT showing up, or something. Been ages since I read that book.


Then again if it had been Dale Brown we would have had power armoured US supper troopers backed up by laser and attack drone armed super stealth doomplanes and remotely piloted robot battle droids to the rescue. Who possibly were a mercenary outfit/private sector venture/freedom force/Batman Analog.

I read Flight Of The Old Dog and Silver Tower in the 8th grade (1989) and even then i picked up on the cheezy factor. Still read both books though, but in my defense i was 13 and they had lots of explosions.

good 'technothrillers' aren't technothrillers at all

because it's a made-up genre about solving 'drama' with jet planes :v

Also in the Ryanverse we've had nuclear terrorism, successful bioterrorism...and 9/11 is still the defining thing for early 21st Century America.


"Sure we had tens of thousands killed by a nuke and super-ebola. But the WTC? Now is when we're going to have hitmen running around Europe. Go Ravens."

That was pretty hilarious.

Have you read the recent stuff though (I'm a terrible person) where the damn Democrats are trying to get a special forces soldier in trouble for shooting a sleeping enemy during a mission? And thankfully super secret black ops wetwork team take him onboard to save him from the evils of justice and due process?

No, I resolved to never read a TC book again after "Teeth of the Tiger". Not even checking it out of the library.

I think it's that same book where the Cartels team up with Al Qaeda to destroy America. Because the Cartels hate America and want to destroy it, right? Not just make insane profits from it.

PeZook wrote:Oh, come on. It's not that the US wins at all, it's that it wins effortlessly and easily and without any setbacks whatsoever against enemies too incompetent to ever feel threatening, whether it is fighting a set-piece battle against an overwhelming enemy force, tries to run off the Soviet Navy or attempts a deep penetration special op to destroy Chinese ICBMs.

You need drama in fiction ; Clancy writes technothrillers which stopped thrilling decades ago.

How many of his books have you actually read? Clancy got progressively worse, and the general political themes of the books are terrible (lowpoint IMO being the American girl raped and killed by those damn dirty slant eyes) but it's nowhere near as one sided as you suggest. Debt of Honour and the disabling or destruction of most of the USN's Pacific fleet. The arrogant F-14 pilot getting his comeuppance in Red October; the US boomer being hunted and sunk in Sum of All Fears, or the Berlin Brigade getting torn up by its Russian equivalents; the FBI getting outfoxed by the terrorists in Patriot Games. I understand bashing Clancy is a nerd past time, but at least try and be semi-accurate.