I'm a bit of a lurker on these forums, so i'm not exactly sure how to quote other people properly but I'll try to make what I say vs what Alyrium said clear. No offense to Alyrium Denryle but i'm going to counter argue your 9-10 point order of the evil white man (what ever the fuck that means in this historical context.) I want to stress I don't agree with Jud at all on the basis he does not understand treaty law and seems completely oblivious to how the treaties work on a nation by nation basis, not to mention seems to be racists without knowing it. 1. Amerind Tribes (hereafter referred to as Amerinds) live as they had for 10k years. They have natural resources, distinct and interesting cultures, regional governments. Everything one might expect from a conglomeration of different cultural groups with a wide array of levels of development. Some were neolithic pastoralists or hunter/gatherers. Some were up there in Iron Age territory.
Like to point out that the amerind tribes, nations, and empires ( I am assuming you are including south american civilizations into this general sweep correct? If not I shall refer to all groups as First Nations and imply from this point forward that all groups from Central America as the southern tip all the way up Newfounland/Iceland are part of your amerind tribes label.) are for these 10k years killing, looting, waging war and exterminating each other quite frequently due to cultural, economic and political reasons. Just saying this due to your use of pastoralists and hunter/gatherer line as a hint of pacifism, war and exploitation are not inclusive to the "white man" and the first nations of Canada where not in any sense of the word pacifists or peaceful, war did not magically come into existence because the "White Man" showed up, it was always there.2. The White Man shows up, and for a few years, everything is cool. Amerind people's are a bit wary, but in many cases start to help out these new and interesting people.
Complete and utter generalization. Which White Man landings you talking about? The Vikings settlements getting wiped out in Newfoundland? The Conflicts between the English colonists and Powhatan Confederacy? Or maybe the little cluster fuck the French landed in (The Iroquois expansion period that ended with the bearver wars.) Overall some of the amerind people allied with the various outposts of european nations others opposed, depended on their geopolitical standings and internal leaderships.3. Until it turns out that The White Man wants something from them other than teaching them that corn exists. It might be gold, or furs, or agricultural land, or timber. Hell, it might even be slaves, because that was a thing. Oh yes, so much slavery. So, The White Man Takes. Unburdened by any sort of moral stricture, because The White Man is christian, and does not accept the humanity of non-christians.
This is great, so let me get this straight slavery only exists in the white man world...............and hey it only exists for Christians too! Aside from the obvious Aztec, Mayan, Incan systems of slavery that predates euro arrival you should read up on how Natives treated their rivals and took prisoners and more importantly why they took prisoners. You should be surprised. The argument that Industrial slavery was worse than Native slavery holds no weight in my eyes since the process of turning one into a slave is always the same, taking someone through social, economical, or physical means and making them fucking property to benefit someone else. I'm curious if you know about the whole picture of the slave trade worked between the "White Man" and the Natives as in how many Africans the Natives bought for their plantations they built. (This would be more in the lower half of North America primarily carried out by the Cherokee not South America where Spain was basically manpower hunger for their mines to support their imperialism in Europe and beyond.) 4. [b]The White Man uses guns germs and steel to ethnically cleans the native people's from the east coast. This creates infighting as refugees go west, only to run into tribes that have enough issues just supporting themselves. The White Man signs treaties with these western tribes, using them to fight their wars (say, between the english and french) by proxy, and using them to help them ethnically cleanse the tribes who wont sign the treaties.
What's funny here is that you once again lump "white man" into one massive general group again. Each of the Euro Colonial Zones had different goals, French came looking for trade route to China, English came looking for something to counter Spanish Power, Spain came for Gold, Dutch for fur and for prime locations to raid Spanish shipping ect. Many of the Native groups actually worked hand in hand with the new arrivals, Quebec and the Huron being the stand outs, while other powers could care less about proxy wars and treaties Spain being notorious for this, Dutch were terrible at making allies and thus lost their colony, England overall attempted to honor their treaties but a little tea party kinda fucked that up for them. About half of the wars between the native groups up to the american war of independence were natives fighting to control the trade to the Europeans who were trading them prime goods, like steel axes, house goods, guns, cannons, horses, medicine, building materials ect. The other half was just plan old fuck you nation vs nation shit.5. After that is done, and The White Man then discovers that their former allies have stuff they want. Abrogates the treaties.
This is interesting, The process that you have talked about has happened over generations with governments, ideologies and entire nations rising and falling on both sides of the ocean and you think that treaties are what immortal and never get changed, broken, or run out? Also you realize that this can only be looked at on a Treaty by Treaty basis? And that the reason so many of the First Nations lost out on their former treaties is because of the War of Independence and the fact they allied with the British? Just saying that you are really simplifying this down and furthermore making it seem like every treaty signed was always intended to be broken. 6. Repeat steps 3-5.
7. There are still some Amerinds left. The Cherokee for example in Georgia. Andrew Jackson death-marches them from Georgia to Oklahoma in what is called the Trail of Tears. This sort of thing occurs for every remaining Amerind Tribe that is not living in the high arctic. The White Man even hunts the buffallo out from under the subsistence hunters of the western plains region--even from their own land prior to the (wait for it) abrogation of the treaties that guaranteed the territorial integrity of people like the Lakota.
I'm going to say that "White Man" should be replaced with USA. Your right about all of this, though you skipped a hugh period of time from the initial trade relations, 7 years war, conquest of New France, war of indepence to the Trail of Tears. The middle kinda explains how it got to the point of the trail of tears with the Cherokee and the five civilized tribes.8. Eventually, the only land remaining for the Amerind Peoples are the types of land no White Man wants. Land with no natural resources, that is difficult to farm, with few (if any) easy trade routes like navigable rivers.
Agree with you here, the First Nations for the most part got a shit deal with the "New" North American Powers of the that treaty period ( United States, Mexico, Dominion of Canada) Overall though a case by case would have to be examined here for me to actually agree that all the land deals given was intentionally useless. 9. When the Amerind People fight back, they are slaughtered and/or demonized by The White Man. Amerind children raised or educated in White society are taught that they are racially or culturally inferior to The White Man (this bit continues well into the 1900s). Even white children are indoctrinated with the belief that Amerind people are to be despised by way of classic childhood games like cowboys and indians and various media sources. Like the entire film genre called "Westerns". Major politicians chastise those in their ranks who might meet with Amerind leaders because "They killed General Custer and it is an insult to that Great American Hero to talk to them", ignoring the fact that the people who killed General Custer were defending themselves from genocide. Education and employment policy is only just recently such that Amerind peoples have a shot at making their lives better--but only if they leave their people and what ancient traditions they still have behind.
I could talk about the various problems between the American Settlers, Frontier Laws, The First Nations attempts at getting a country started, American Manifest Destiny ect. I would also point out at this point it feels like you are talking about almost exclusive US vs First Nations history not Canadian/British vs Fist Nations history. One thing jumped out at me here though. As someone who studied film I have to point out that westerns are not some evil propaganda tool made to discredit and demonize First Nations Peoples. They are made to fucking make money. If knights vs vikings where appealing to paying crowds back then that is what they would have made. There are examples of films made that aim to portray First Nations Peoples poorly but those are more reflective of the times and the directors/producers of those projects than an entire genre. As for your points of education, politicians and such I can only say that needs to be addressed on a case by case since generally my experience and understanding of First Nations is an overall positive one, especially what I learned about them in my entire school period. I do agree about one thing. FUCK CUSTER. posting.php?mode=reply&f=7&t=156213&sid=e562c660aeeeb74e496c5ad8bddd8d2a# 10. The White Man wonders why the remaining Amerind Peoples are so poor and economically undeveloped, and are bitter about how they dont pay taxes and get government subsidy. Said White Man proposes that we abrogate our treaties again and take the last thing we want from the Amerind people. Their cultural identity and autonomy. We have taken everything else. It is just that one last thing. Then .
Okay this is where you pissed me off. Fighting motherfucking racism with motherfucking racism is not fucking cool. I agree that people who don't understand the issues and history that lead up to this point and the current issues within the First Nations are stupid and to be honest not worth debating due to said stupidity but really Alyrium lumping every single "White Man" into a group and saying we are "bitter" and i'm not sure "everything will be solved" seems to hint at the "White Mans" final solution. My point is that implying that the "White Man" is evil, manipulative, and pure evil is just as bad as anything Jub's said so far. Also what the fuck is "White Man" that is like me saying "Black Man" or "Yellow Man" be clear, in historical context they where Western Europeans for the most part and in modern context would be North American.
On another Note, Zor I hope your Dad gets over it quickly, being mugged is fucking scary and it sucks.