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 Post subject: Racism Discussion from "My Dad Was Mugged" Thread PostPosted: 2012-09-27 05:22pm
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Losonti Tokash wrote:
You also took my statement completely backwards. :/


Most Canadians view natives with a bit of contempt. They don't pay taxes, get extra money from the government, and have often been given prime tracts of land where they don't have to follow the same zoning laws as the rest of us. Of course when we build entire communities for them they wreck things; there have been examples of homes having their doors stripped to be burned because the families living in them didn't pay their heating bills. Then they complain that we gave them run down houses and only gave them one house per 4 families.

Those of Scottish descent were removed from their land and likely shipped over here to fight for a cause they could care less about, so where are their reparations? I know they're white, and thus we should just ignore the fact that bad shit happened to them too, but why should we bother with giving natives special rights when we deny them to others? Why shouldn't they be happy to live in a first world nation that would be more than happy to accept them as equals?

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 Post subject: Re: My Dad was mugged PostPosted: 2012-09-27 05:53pm
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one might speculate that there are complex and historically rooted socio-economic factors contributing to these problems

instead of literally 'fucking indians in the way of good land get a job you smelly people'



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 Post subject: Re: My Dad was mugged PostPosted: 2012-09-27 06:16pm
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Zablorg wrote:
one might speculate that there are complex and historically rooted socio-economic factors contributing to these problems

instead of literally 'fucking indians in the way of good land get a job you smelly people'


This. Also, eat shit, Jub.



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 Post subject: Re: My Dad was mugged PostPosted: 2012-09-27 06:23pm
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Jub wrote:
Losonti Tokash wrote:
You also took my statement completely backwards. :/


Most Canadians view natives with a bit of contempt. They don't pay taxes, get extra money from the government, and have often been given prime tracts of land where they don't have to follow the same zoning laws as the rest of us. Of course when we build entire communities for them they wreck things; there have been examples of homes having their doors stripped to be burned because the families living in them didn't pay their heating bills. Then they complain that we gave them run down houses and only gave them one house per 4 families.

Those of Scottish descent were removed from their land and likely shipped over here to fight for a cause they could care less about, so where are their reparations? I know they're white, and thus we should just ignore the fact that bad shit happened to them too, but why should we bother with giving natives special rights when we deny them to others? Why shouldn't they be happy to live in a first world nation that would be more than happy to accept them as equals?


I think you kinda miss the point that Native people have treaty rights, because they have treaties. I don't remember the government making special treaties with Scottish conscripts.

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 Post subject: Re: My Dad was mugged PostPosted: 2012-09-27 07:12pm
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Zablorg wrote:
one might speculate that there are complex and historically rooted socio-economic factors contributing to these problems

instead of literally 'fucking indians in the way of good land get a job you smelly people'


Throwing money and special rights at them has been doing so well thus far and the gap between the Nations of haves and the nations of have nots is huge. Even in wealthier bands wealth distribution isn't close to even. Not to mention the fact that non-native renters and employees living and working on native land are often treated poorly, or the fact that stores that used to have a set percentage of required native employees dropped the policy because they couldn't find enough reliable native workers because the kids they were hiring felt entitled to the positions. In fact, how is that even fair? Why can't other stores set ratios of whites to non-whites as they choose?

Losonti Tokash wrote:
Zablorg wrote:
one might speculate that there are complex and historically rooted socio-economic factors contributing to these problems

instead of literally 'fucking indians in the way of good land get a job you smelly people'


This. Also, eat shit, Jub.


Nice rebuttal, very well thought out.

spaceviking wrote:
I think you kinda miss the point that Native people have treaty rights, because they have treaties. I don't remember the government making special treaties with Scottish conscripts.


That's the entire issue. They shouldn't have treaty rights, they're Canadians or Americans and should be treated as such.

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 Post subject: Re: My Dad was mugged PostPosted: 2012-09-27 07:20pm
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Well many people agree that these treaties have served to do more harm then good. You can not however simply eliminate treaty rights, they are contractual agreements between Native groups and the Government of Canada.

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 Post subject: Re: My Dad was mugged PostPosted: 2012-09-27 07:25pm
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Sorry Jub I was too busy laughing at your "the true victims of racism are whites" and "those natives have unfair privileges over their oppressors." It's also pretty stupid to just decide they're Canadians or Americans when a fair number don't consider themselves that at all. Thanks for being a fantastic illustration of my original comment, though.



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 Post subject: Re: My Dad was mugged PostPosted: 2012-09-27 08:05pm
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spaceviking wrote:
Well many people agree that these treaties have served to do more harm then good. You can not however simply eliminate treaty rights, they are contractual agreements between Native groups and the Government of Canada.


We just need to find a loophole and prove that they have breached some term of the contract. That, or we could setup boarders around these 'nations' and restrict trade and apply tarrifs to outside goods. Then they can live life without paying taxes and the government still gets paid.

Losonti Tokash wrote:
Sorry Jub I was too busy laughing at your "the true victims of racism are whites" and "those natives have unfair privileges over their oppressors." It's also pretty stupid to just decide they're Canadians or Americans when a fair number don't consider themselves that at all. Thanks for being a fantastic illustration of my original comment, though.


They live within the boarders of these nations and use services provided by the governments of these nations. I don't care what they think they are. If they want to live on their own they can provide their own power, pave their own roads, and do all the things nations normally do for themselves.

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 Post subject: Re: My Dad was mugged PostPosted: 2012-09-27 08:07pm
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It's almost as if a false view of indigenous entitlement and privilege is central to right wing idiocy in nations where these populations exist.



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 Post subject: Re: My Dad was mugged PostPosted: 2012-09-27 08:09pm
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weemadando wrote:
It's almost as if a false view of indigenous entitlement and privilege is central to right wing idiocy in nations where these populations exist.


False view? Do they or don't they have special rights that normal citizens do not?

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 Post subject: Re: My Dad was mugged PostPosted: 2012-09-27 08:17pm
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Jub wrote:
We just need to find a loophole and prove that they have breached some term of the contract. That, or we could setup boarders around these 'nations' and restrict trade and apply tarrifs to outside goods.


I am completely speechless.



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 Post subject: Re: My Dad was mugged PostPosted: 2012-09-27 08:18pm
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Losonti Tokash wrote:
Jub wrote:
We just need to find a loophole and prove that they have breached some term of the contract. That, or we could setup boarders around these 'nations' and restrict trade and apply tarrifs to outside goods.


I am completely speechless.


I think all people should be treated equally, nobody more or less equal than anybody else. I don't feel bad saying that I support enforcing this view.

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 Post subject: Re: My Dad was mugged PostPosted: 2012-09-27 08:21pm
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It's almost like we afford them some small extra priviledges in the law because we killed the vast majority of them and then subjected them to cultural brainwashing or something. But I guess they should just get over us stealing their land and identity.

Hey Jub-Jub, do you post retarded racist bullshit in every thread involving different cultures the west has fucked over or are there just 2 examples?



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 Post subject: Re: My Dad was mugged PostPosted: 2012-09-27 08:28pm
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Get the fuck out of here. You realize that if you wanted to end the treaties, Canada would have to surrender vast tracts of land (basically everything from northern Ontario, right across to the Rockies, up to the Arcitic Sea) back to the First Nations? Because that's the only valid outcome of ending them, unless you're a fan of basically stealing that land from them (arguably, again). They ceded their lands to us because they were decimated by disease and the over-hunting of the bison by European settlers, and the Crown traded food aid for their territory.

This isn't your land, or my land, unless you recognize the validity of those Treaties.

Learn some fucking history before you spout your ignorant shit, you racist shit heel.



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 Post subject: Re: My Dad was mugged PostPosted: 2012-09-27 08:44pm
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Flagg wrote:
It's almost like we afford them some small extra priviledges in the law because we killed the vast majority of them and then subjected them to cultural brainwashing or something. But I guess they should just get over us stealing their land and identity.

Hey Jub-Jub, do you post retarded racist bullshit in every thread involving different cultures the west has fucked over or are there just 2 examples?


Every culture has suffered, whites have suffered at the hands of whites throughout history. Why don't the Scotts, who were ripped from their lands and brought over to the new world to fight for a cause they could care less about, have special rights? If my parents are killed then do I get special treatment because my life now sucks? That has more of a direct effect on me than something that happened a generation or more ago.

Phantasee wrote:
Get the fuck out of here. You realize that if you wanted to end the treaties, Canada would have to surrender vast tracts of land (basically everything from northern Ontario, right across to the Rockies, up to the Arcitic Sea) back to the First Nations? Because that's the only valid outcome of ending them, unless you're a fan of basically stealing that land from them (arguably, again). They ceded their lands to us because they were decimated by disease and the over-hunting of the bison by European settlers, and the Crown traded food aid for their territory.

This isn't your land, or my land, unless you recognize the validity of those Treaties.

Learn some fucking history before you spout your ignorant shit, you racist shit heel.


I'm sorry, I was born here as much as they were, I just pay taxes and don't get extra rights. Why should I pay for them to get extra when I didn't do anything and my ancestors didn't do anything because they didn't come over until WWII. What about other recent immigrants who weren't involved, why should they want to give the natives a free ride on their tax dollars?

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 Post subject: Re: My Dad was mugged PostPosted: 2012-09-27 08:51pm
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Jub wrote:
Flagg wrote:
It's almost like we afford them some small extra priviledges in the law because we killed the vast majority of them and then subjected them to cultural brainwashing or something. But I guess they should just get over us stealing their land and identity.

Hey Jub-Jub, do you post retarded racist bullshit in every thread involving different cultures the west has fucked over or are there just 2 examples?


Every culture has suffered, whites have suffered at the hands of whites throughout history. Why don't the Scotts, who were ripped from their lands and brought over to the new world to fight for a cause they could care less about, have special rights? If my parents are killed then do I get special treatment because my life now sucks? That has more of a direct effect on me than something that happened a generation or more ago.

Poor white people. So oppressed! :lol:

Read up on American Indians before responding to another post in this thread please. If you can read.



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Last edited by Flagg on 2012-09-27 08:57pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: My Dad was mugged PostPosted: 2012-09-27 08:55pm
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Go fuck yourself. You have no fucking idea what challenges minorities face in general, let alone Native Americans. You're so goddamn smug and blinded by your white privilege that you think YOU are the one who is discriminated against and that minorities somehow have an advantage over you.

Get the fuck out.



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 Post subject: Re: My Dad was mugged PostPosted: 2012-09-27 09:05pm
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Flagg wrote:
Poor white people. So oppressed! :lol:

Read up on American Indians before responding to another post in this thread please. If you can read.


Poor natives asking for money from people who don't even have ancestors that did anything to them. I'm such a bad guys for being born White that some of my money goes to paying for something nobody from my family did, all because, you know, all white people are the same evil group that hates minorities. Cry me a river.

Losonti Tokash wrote:
Go fuck yourself. You have no fucking idea what challenges minorities face in general, let alone Native Americans. You're so goddamn smug and blinded by your white privilege that you think YOU are the one who is discriminated against and that minorities somehow have an advantage over you.

Get the fuck out.


I'm so forcing them to smoke drugs and huff gas and destroy the nice houses we built for them. I'm forcing them to complain about how harsh the world treats them even though they don't pay taxes and get free education on our dime. I'm forcing them to drop out of school and have kids and then not do the job that was handed to them just because they were born native. Where is my quarter of a house and free job?

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 Post subject: Re: My Dad was mugged PostPosted: 2012-09-27 09:12pm
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Losonti Tokash wrote:
Go fuck yourself. You have no fucking idea what challenges minorities face in general, let alone Native Americans. You're so goddamn smug and blinded by your white privilege that you think YOU are the one who is discriminated against and that minorities somehow have an advantage over you.

Get the fuck out.


I won't further engage with a blatant racist. This is all you get.



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 Post subject: Re: My Dad was mugged PostPosted: 2012-09-27 09:15pm
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Jub wrote:
Flagg wrote:
Poor white people. So oppressed! :lol:

Read up on American Indians before responding to another post in this thread please. If you can read.


Poor natives asking for money from people who don't even have ancestors that did anything to them. I'm such a bad guys for being born White that some of my money goes to paying for something nobody from my family did, all because, you know, all white people are the same evil group that hates minorities. Cry me a river.

Losonti Tokash wrote:
Go fuck yourself. You have no fucking idea what challenges minorities face in general, let alone Native Americans. You're so goddamn smug and blinded by your white privilege that you think YOU are the one who is discriminated against and that minorities somehow have an advantage over you.

Get the fuck out.


I'm so forcing them to smoke drugs and huff gas and destroy the nice houses we built for them. I'm forcing them to complain about how harsh the world treats them even though they don't pay taxes and get free education on our dime. I'm forcing them to drop out of school and have kids and then not do the job that was handed to them just because they were born native. Where is my quarter of a house and free job?



Wow. :finger:



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 Post subject: Re: My Dad was mugged PostPosted: 2012-09-27 09:26pm
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Man let me tell you something, as the son of immigrants that came over in the 80s, you know what we think when we see First Nations and the conditions they live in and learn the shit they had to go through? We think, "fuck, I wish I could do more for them." Don't go thinking all immigrants share your views.

Every single person in this country shares responsibility for the condition of First Nations today, because we prospered on the lands they were conned into giving up. If you don't want to accept responsibility for that, feel free to leave this country.



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 Post subject: Re: My Dad was mugged PostPosted: 2012-09-27 09:29pm
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Jub wrote:
Losonti Tokash wrote:
You also took my statement completely backwards. :/


Most Canadians view natives with a bit of contempt. They don't pay taxes, get extra money from the government, and have often been given prime tracts of land where they don't have to follow the same zoning laws as the rest of us. Of course when we build entire communities for them they wreck things; there have been examples of homes having their doors stripped to be burned because the families living in them didn't pay their heating bills. Then they complain that we gave them run down houses and only gave them one house per 4 families.

Those of Scottish descent were removed from their land and likely shipped over here to fight for a cause they could care less about, so where are their reparations? I know they're white, and thus we should just ignore the fact that bad shit happened to them too, but why should we bother with giving natives special rights when we deny them to others? Why shouldn't they be happy to live in a first world nation that would be more than happy to accept them as equals?

The First Nations were pre-existing nations in Canada, and the Parliament made treaties with them.

The Scots were no more a pre-existing nation in Canada than the Ashanti or the Hmong. That kinda makes a difference.

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 Post subject: Re: My Dad was mugged PostPosted: 2012-09-27 09:33pm
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Jub wrote:
Poor natives asking for money from people who don't even have ancestors that did anything to them. I'm such a bad guys for being born White that some of my money goes to paying for something nobody from my family did, all because, you know, all white people are the same evil group that hates minorities. Cry me a river.

If the British were to pay reparations to Ireland, some of that reparation money would come from Jamaican immigrants.

How the fuck is that different?

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 Post subject: Re: My Dad was mugged PostPosted: 2012-09-27 09:43pm
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Honest question, who's surprised that the guy who advocated invading Middle Eastern countries to "put down" radical Islamists has turned out to be a huge racist? Show of hands?



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 Post subject: Re: My Dad was mugged PostPosted: 2012-09-27 09:57pm
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Concessions accepted.

Now, in the bluntest way I can say this. Natives should have the same rights and responsibilities as any other citizen. I'm not saying they don't have issues and that we shouldn't deal with those issues. I just think we should deal with them the same way we deal with non-natives that have the same sorts of issues. After all, people are people.

Phantasee wrote:
Man let me tell you something, as the son of immigrants that came over in the 80s, you know what we think when we see First Nations and the conditions they live in and learn the shit they had to go through? We think, "fuck, I wish I could do more for them." Don't go thinking all immigrants share your views.

Every single person in this country shares responsibility for the condition of First Nations today, because we prospered on the lands they were conned into giving up. If you don't want to accept responsibility for that, feel free to leave this country.


I see the local natives in my area and half of them are richer than average and the other half are dirt poor. I see the government building communities for these people and these new communities being trashed. I see natives being handed jobs just because the company chose to build on native land. I see them paying no taxes and still having all the same services that I pay for. I see my native friends not wanting status cards because they're ashamed of getting hand outs.

I get that they got a raw deal, but they got hit hard by small pox and we got hit hard by the black death. Just because we thrived and they didn't shouldn't mean we have to support them forever.

amigocabal wrote:
The First Nations were pre-existing nations in Canada, and the Parliament made treaties with them.

The Scots were no more a pre-existing nation in Canada than the Ashanti or the Hmong. That kinda makes a difference.


People are people, if some people that have suffered and are getting extra for it all people who has suffered should be paid. Except that would be stupid so nobody should get special status or handouts. People are people and should be treated as such. People with issues should be helped with resources made available to all, not to just some. If one pays taxes all, so long as they earn enough to do so, should pay taxes.

amigocabal wrote:
Jub wrote:
Poor natives asking for money from people who don't even have ancestors that did anything to them. I'm such a bad guys for being born White that some of my money goes to paying for something nobody from my family did, all because, you know, all white people are the same evil group that hates minorities. Cry me a river.

If the British were to pay reparations to Ireland, some of that reparation money would come from Jamaican immigrants.

How the fuck is that different?


It isn't and nobody should be pair reparations for things generations past did. If you're going to pay for hardship pay for current hardship. If you want to fix the issues then deal with the cause and not just treating the symptoms.

SilverWingedSeraph wrote:
Honest question, who's surprised that the guy who advocated invading Middle Eastern countries to "put down" radical Islamists has turned out to be a huge racist? Show of hands?


Racist? How am I racist for saying that all people should be treated equally because at some point the people in our family tree were treated like crap. I'm saying we should treat them like the citizens of the countries they live in and set about fixing their social issues the right way. The current system isn't just stupid and unfair, it also does a shitty job at fixing the issues.

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