Red Army by Ralph Peters

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Blayne
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Red Army by Ralph Peters

Post by Blayne »

This was a book I've picked up recently and enjoyed it a lot.

Here's the summary from Wikipedia:
Red Army was unique among military fiction published in the United States during the 1980s,
in that it told its story exclusively from the perspective of officers and men in the Soviet Army.
Even more uniquely, the Soviet Union prevailed over NATO forces thanks to a combination of rapid military success and political strategy.
No other technothriller by the authors in the genre — such as Tom Clancy, Harold Coyle, Dale Brown, or Sir John Hackett —
presented an opfor perspective for the entire book or victory at the end of the novel.
It was also unique for the genre in that the author did not focus at all on detailed descriptions of the weapons and technology used,
and instead concentrated on the characters and their respective stories in the conflict.
So as we see here, its a WWIII technothriller akin to Red Storm Rising where the Soviet Union seeing that its losing the Cold War without a shot being fired makes one last gamble to conclusively "win" at the last thing they know for sure they are good at, fighting.

As noted its done entirely from the Soviet perspective, with characters from various SSR's and gives some emphasis on Soviet doctrine of deep operations and of the Soviet way of fighting a war. Additionally there's scant details on the weapon hardware use. There is no usage of NATO call signs like "Growler", "Akula", "Hind" or inform you of what they are. Only their role, what's its doing, some commentary regarding 'size' and so on. For instance they will say "Anti Aircraft vehical", "tank", "anti tank gun", "assault rifle" and so on. The only real detail we get is what ammunition is being used. For instance NATO tanks were described as "large and boxy" while the Soviet ones as "feeling really small", so we can guess Centurion versus T-62M's but we don't always "know" giving the ready if they're well versed in Cold War technocrafting to imagine what's being used without going "Hey! Those aren't ready in enough numbers yet!"

Now the below may qualify as spoilers and I am doing a full review, so you have been warned.

I've been able to track down a few basic premises the author RAR'ed away in order to allow a Soviet victory under the best possible circumstances; this is perfectly fine as the author had pointed out he did this specifically to provide a counter weight to other WWIII technothrillers that have everything going in NATO's favour.

-Some sort of SALT treaty was signed which had the West remove their Ground to Ground missiles from Europe.
-West Germans made artificially incompetant. (This is admittedly in hindsight)
-The West doesn't immediately resort to using tactical nuclear warheads in response.
-China I guess is just sitting on their thumbs?
-The conflict seems to have been kept to Germany, no other theaters are mentioned, the war is kept European in scope and not expanded to Turkey, the Black Sea or Asia.

I'll get to the book review part in a moment, but first operational art! :eng101:

The book includes very helpful maps of the north German plains with updated maps each chapter of the Soviet progress, the Soviet plan is actually pretty darn clever and is (Okay, I know this sounds really arrogant and pretencious but...) what I would've done if I wargamed it; essentially the Soviet plan is a trap within a trap plus an additional trap that was ad hoc added half way through.

Firstly you had General Trimenko (I think he's either a Tymoshenko or Rokossovsky stand in) with the Second Guards Tank Army thrusting into the north with five reinforced divisions, here's an excerpt as they can say it better.
Excerpt wrote: “In the north, the Second Guards Tank Army, reinforced to a
strength of five divisions, attacks in the Uelzen -- Verden --
Arnhem operational direction, with the immediate missions
of crossing the Elbe-Seiten Canal in multidivisional strength
on the first day of operations, locating and exploiting the
boundary between the Netherlands Corps and the German
Corps, and rapidly penetrating the Netherlands operational
grouping in depth.”
[I don't know who commands the 20th in the novel, I don't think its ever mentioned]
Excerpt wrote: “the Twentieth Guards Army attacks in the Duderstadt -- Paderborn -- Dortmund
operational direction, with the mission of developing a
rapid penetration in the Belgian sector, thereby creating an
early crisis in the vicinity of the enemy’s army group
boundary. In this instance, as in the example of the Second
Guards Tank Army in the north, it is our expectation that
early penetrations on its flanks will force the enemy’s
Northern Army Group -- NORTHAG -- to commit its
available reserves early and in a piecemeal fashion as it
attempts to stabilize both of its flanks. Finally, upon receipt
of the appropriate order, the Twentieth Guards Army is
prepared to execute a turning movement to unhinge the
British defense just to the north, should that prove
necessary.”
Followed by an attack in the center by the Third Shock Army under General Starukhin (Zhukov stand in?) who is meant to keep the British pinned down until the decisive moment where the British start pulling off reserves to help the Germans to the North and the Belgians to the South in efforts to counter encircle the Soviet thrusts.

At this moment is when the Soviets unleash a whole Unified Army Corps to smash through the now exhausted British lines and break through to the Weser river and brush aside the remaining and off balance enemy forces.

In essence a pincer movement from the north and south to distract and pull away enemy forces from the center, hiding the real intention of a massive assault from the center and then a push to the weser.

What's interesting during this briefing is the emphasis on timing, on logistics tables, on the preplanning planning of absolutely every detail trying to eliminate "luck" as a factor in the final outcome; something very much at the core of Soviet military thinking (according to the author anyways but it makes sense to me). Everything is meant to happen at a certain tempo at a certain pace and be accomplished by a certain day. If something goes wrong there's backup plans, if something goes wrong with the backups there's other alternatives. At no point is any setback anything more than that.

The book adopts the Multiple Character Point of View from the Third Person Omniscient perspective, whereas there's a whole bunch of characters in different roles and the book tends to narrate "He thought that is vodka was warm, and it made him sad." and so on. What's marvelous about the book is the way it clearly goes to great pains and lengths to make the Soviets actual human beings with their own motivations and feelings. Many just want to get home, some enjoy the chance to fight the probably enemy and thrive in the chaotic environment, and so on. There's no antagonists here except the 'enemy', the characters are colourful, have personality and act so very human. I heard an interesting truism once, 'when the going get's tough, the tough gets going.' And the book seems to more often than not reverses this, many tough or otherwise capable people break down under the stress, but others thrive, war is hell it seems.

Another pain the author takes to point out to you is that the Soviet Army isn't "the Russians" but is composed of many ethnic nationalities that make up the USSR; such as Kazahks, Ukrainians, Georgians, Estonians and so on not just Russian. I like the point trying to be made although there's no mention as to the "Category" system for divisions the Soviet had that ranked the reliability and readiness of divisions mostly composed of the minorities (or how they likely would not be in the front lines).

The author does such a good job at characterization I genuinely felt a bit shocked when some of them just die at random out of the blue. I won't say who but it sucks.

Honestly make me this game, seriously just shut up and take my money EA! I would play this if it were the next Battlefield game, just make it entirely from the Russian perspective, the Chinese like playing Joint Ops and you mostly play Americans shooting PLA soldiers!

The book begs the question, what if this had happened the way it did? Unlikely yes, a lot had to go "right" for this scenario to work, but suppose West Germany got occupied and merged with East Germany and the war got smothered under political indecisiveness so the Cold War got cold again, would the Sovet Union had "bounced" back economically from having West Germany and such a forceful position on Europe?

I certainly wouldn't want to be France or Britain in that situation.

However though... To be honest while the book is absolutely brilliant, a technical masterpiece and a fun read its boring narratively speaking.

Why is this? Well the reasons are fairly simple and obvious with a bit of reflection.

Firstly lets look at the character deaths, yes I understand the point, war is hell, and very pointlessly random. Sure that makes for realism which is fine! In of itself, but it also makes for a boring story if it accomplishes absoloutely nothing. If you are going to kill off characters I like in a pointless random way to reinforce Lifes Hard Lessons(tm) then at least make the modicrum of effort to have someother character profoundly moved by it and motivated to I don't know, live life to the fullest or something.

Perfect example, [btw MASSIVE SPOILER you have been warned]






Serious now, you've been warned.



Trimenko Dies.

I LIKED HIM! He had an interesting nervous tick and struck me a lot as a Russian General Model, he had STYLE and he really liked machines more than people, so that won points from me and he had this really bad ass rivalry happening with Starukhin.

But then he just dies!? And nothing happens because of it, nothing regarding Starukhin, nothing involving Chibisov who was the closest thing to a human friend he had, nodda! It happens, it passes by and we hear virtually nothing about what happens with the northern tank armies after that, zzzzzzzz.

One or two pointless random character deaths like this would've been fine, but every character offed is offed in this precise fashion it's egregious I say! A literary travesty! Wasted potential! Sure there's two times it happens where it feels like there's actual meaning to it but at least one of the times I felt cheated out of an interesting potential character arc and the second time (in which it had some depth) I just felt like my time was wasted with what seemed to be a humiliation congaline you know?

From wasted potential we move on to entirely missing plot, as in the whole plot, its gone, missing, as if cut out with a laser. It's just following a technically interesting military going about its day with lots of action but there's no development, the characters don't really interact in a meaningful way. There's no narrative, nothing 'happens', oh sure there's hints that something might've/could've been developed from something but it never is. The fact is that it doesn't read to me like a "story" but more like a choose your own adventure where the only choice is the railroad the author set you on.

For contrast lets look at Stargate SG1 and Re:Battlestar Galactica; you have the aspects of a on going military operation; but you also have "stuff" happening, there's a progress towards some broader end goal (even if the end goals was "Summon Bigger Fish" for one and "Incomprehensible Pseudoreligious gibberish" for the other; this is superior to nothing at all). SG1 had Daniel Jackson and his search for truth, O'Neill and coming to terms with his sons death (hrrrrm), Humanities broader goal of resisting threats to our existence and so on.

You had the broader conflict and then you had smaller fractale conflicts in microcosm of the broader conflict and they related to each other. Having the conflict literally be a war and everyone's sub conflicts be surviving the war strikes me as a cheap cop out. Its serviceable, it does the job, but it doesn't analyze or question its structure, it doesn't challenge the reader beyond the initial well crafted premise.

Je ne c'est quois... It's like I have something that is missing half of what could make it great, alone the one half makes it good, but with that something else it could be "great", and to me personally this mostly comes from how I feel that the book positvely oozes with lost potential. Which becomes absolutely painful with how frustrating it gets because of how often it just barely brushes past some interesting conflict or theme but then zips by it without so much as a wave and a good bye.

I mean sure, I liked how it portrays how even good men, professional men, when in a stressful environment, with their lives on the line and exhausted may make bad judgement calls or do acts they could never imagined themselves doing either out of fear or desperation. Such as the times when POV characters either witness, or partake in war crimes. But the author only seems willing to give the matter a passing mention, "well the Generals made an honest attempt to stop it so that makes it okay." and I just feel a little cheated again that I've been denied an interesting addition to the story arc y'know?

Lets look at how an American show or book would do it.

A tank Major is commanding his ad hoc tank brigade due to bad case of officer attrition and just won an impressive engagement against the enemy, but during the heat of battle as troops are making their way through an refugee column on the bridge across a major waterway a massacre happens and there's some attempted rape of civilians.

In both cases of an American show, and in the book; the officer POV character who is meant to be a sort of protagonist we're meant to like manages to stop it before it gets worse but the damage is done. In an American show the situation would be different, but always in the case of good intentions leading to a negative result within the context of a wider success.

In SG1... SG1 usually manages to save the day, but there's good questions whether they did it "the right way" or whether there was unnessasary risk or danger so this prompts some soul searching and intra character and organizational conflict of Your Own Side versus You and so on.

This..... Just doesn't happen in the book. A golden oppurtunity for General Malinski (the POV character whose managing the whole front) to interract directly with some of the front line characters is presented and then discarded. It's an "event" in a series of events where some character may interact with it, but only superficially.

One last final criticism although it isn't once I personally noticed until it was pointed out to me, but.... sigh. The author kinda still does that Tom Clancy/You Know Who thing of where they have that pet peeve whom the book serves somewhat of a vehical to be critical of. It's barely noticible if you enter into the task of reading the book to see the characters as "people" and not as the literary voice of the author. But essentially the West Germany military the Bundeswehr the author is very criticial of and NATO in general; it's better here, and possibly justified a bit as the author is clearly meaning the book to be a critique of NATO's strategy of forward defense at the time, and best seen in this context as being a novel sized staff "memo".

This I think wouldn't be as grating however if the American forces in the novel basically escaped the fighting entirely unscaffed and undefeated, only beginning to redeploy a reserve corps northwards to contain the Soviet successes near the end with one sided tactical success that I didn't entirely understand. I'm vaguely pretty sure the Americans didn't have stealthy undetectable attack helicopters at the time, and also a little strange that the F-16 seemed so god like to Soviet airmen when in the late 80's I'm pretty sure Sukhoi and Mig had some good stuff on hand*.

*I think there were around 1500 Mig-29 and 500 Suhkoi-27's, the F-16 shouldn't have been that surprising to the attack plane pilot? Also I'm pretty sure its an F-16 as it very much pointed out Fly by Wire movement, I don't recall the passage however, it might have said the name.

All in all, I liked this book, it was thoroughly enjoyable and it is one of my great guilty pleasures is playing a "Russian" character in a video game, and seeing a book wherein America Saves the Day is averted with a decisive Soviet victory was just plain cathartic.

So there's my review, I recommend this book to anyone with a passing interest in technothrillers, again I'll mention my interest in the what if presented here:

Reading the book yourself if you have, or if you eventually do so how did you find the book? Were the Soviets capable of success here given the handwaves the author presented? And if the Soviets "won" and managed to occupy West Germany, my goodness, how much would that change everything!?

When compared to other technothrillers if I were to give it a score 9/10, cause' Soviets winning. If I were to judge it as a novel on its own merits....? 7/10. It's good but missing much of what makes a great book.
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Re: Red Army by Ralph Peters

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The story is basically what the Soviets hoped would happen and planned for, and what many in NATO felt was all too likely to happen. The Soviets focus on the British-Belgian-Dutch forces which had the least firepower while being grouped together in NORTHAG and yet the hardest terrain to defend, punch through before NATO can politically approve the use of nuclear weapons, after which such use would mean nuking most of Germany, and bring about a political collapse of NATO while the military situation is still in doubt and before NATO can fully deploy its reserves. Avoiding this scenario is a major reason why GLCM and Pershing were fielded, providing nuclear assets that could strike far behind Soviet lines, be based far behind NATO lines, and yet not force large number of NATO aircraft to be held in reserve... but then NATO went and abolished both systems without any corresponding increase in conventional firepower and started talking about a CFE treaty instead.

It was too short to be a complete story, but that wasn't really the point, and would have taken a book three times as thick. I liked it. Part of the idea really, was to show how completely limited a field of view people in the front line of a war have. Its sort of like Hacketts The Third World War stripped of the wider political commentary.
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Re: Red Army by Ralph Peters

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Moved.
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Re: Red Army by Ralph Peters

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Sea Skimmer wrote:The story is basically what the Soviets hoped would happen and planned for, and what many in NATO felt was all too likely to happen. The Soviets focus on the British-Belgian-Dutch forces which had the least firepower while being grouped together in NORTHAG and yet the hardest terrain to defend, punch through before NATO can politically approve the use of nuclear weapons, after which such use would mean nuking most of Germany, and bring about a political collapse of NATO while the military situation is still in doubt and before NATO can fully deploy its reserves. Avoiding this scenario is a major reason why GLCM and Pershing were fielded, providing nuclear assets that could strike far behind Soviet lines, be based far behind NATO lines, and yet not force large number of NATO aircraft to be held in reserve... but then NATO went and abolished both systems without any corresponding increase in conventional firepower and started talking about a CFE treaty instead.

It was too short to be a complete story, but that wasn't really the point, and would have taken a book three times as thick. I liked it. Part of the idea really, was to show how completely limited a field of view people in the front line of a war have. Its sort of like Hacketts The Third World War stripped of the wider political commentary.
So the logical American counterpart novel would be Team Yankee then?

@OP: You might find it interesting to compare and contrast against Team Yankee, which was from the POV of an American tank company commander, and the wider war ended IIRC in a 'draw' after Minsk and Birmingham got nuked and everyone lost their nerve.
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Re: Red Army by Ralph Peters

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If RA is any indication Team Yankee should be a very short book considering how fast the Soviets here went through machines :grin:

So the West/NATO withdrawing their Ground to ground cruise missiles actually happened then? Oh my, we got off lucky then that we got Gorbachov in the saddle instead of someone potentially more willing to risk it, like Molotov.

Wasn't Peters' concern though is that the above scenario was what NATO was in denial and didn't think would happen? The forward defense strategy only makes sense I think in the case of a all across the front zerg rush without specific breakthrough points.

But yes I loved the sense the book provided of how narrow the field of vision individual commanders of, I'm reminded of an earlier thread way back when where people discussed the Soviets were likely to jam some 50-90% of NATO communications. Assuming NATO does the same back as happened in the book, that does a lot to make a lot of people feel alone. You don't know whats going on or where anyone bloody is.

I think what I liked best about this, is precisely the lack of political commentary and that the USSR even though its clear they started it, they aren't portrayed as baby eating monsters like in CoD:MW or what-his-face's story over at HPCA. It helps we never saw the political situation leading up to it unfold, just professional career generals doing their job for the rodina.

On the other hand a proper story, and three times the length of the book regardless... I would've liked that a lot.
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Re: Red Army by Ralph Peters

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Team Yankee really just fails the reality check for me, though I'd say when I first read it ~15 years ago I was a fool to think highly of it. It sets up some at times interesting scenarios but they are really just sand table exercises connected by about nothing. Everything is far too clean and controlled and the Soviets are endlessly incompetent. Its based on The Third World War, but at least the set pieces in that book jumped around to different types of combat, and had stuff going utterly horrible for NATO when appropriate like the Milan company being left with a single survivor.

Sword Point was a little better, we can't blame Coyle for the absurd setup since people really thought it might happen, but if it did happen its plausible nukes wouldn't be used, and the core of the combat comes off a lot more like something that might happen in turn. Also the war starts by mistake, which was everyone's dire fear.
Blayne wrote: Wasn't Peters' concern though is that the above scenario was what NATO was in denial and didn't think would happen? The forward defense strategy only makes sense I think in the case of a all across the front zerg rush without specific breakthrough points.
NATO wasn't in denial exactly, NATO knew that the only realistic defense was deterrence, not victory in battle. Forward defense was adapted in the 1970s to force the Soviets to deploy enmass close to the border so they could be immediately slowed down and then targeted with tactical nuclear weapons. This decreased the likelyhood the Soviets would try that shit. Without nuclear release forward defense would fail. Much Soviet thinking was focused on the need to overwhelm NATO before it could make such a political decision, exploiting the relative weakness of NATO command compared to the Warsaw Pact in which the Soviets strictly controlled all nuclear weapons and high command levels. The earlier NATO tripwire strategy basically had the same goal, but was located well back from the border to avoid being overrun. Problem was that meant all the tac nukes land on West Germans, and a risk existed the Soviets would grab some land, but then not engage NATO forces. Would NATO go all out to counterattack? So the line was shifted forward.

The problem is as time went on the Soviets gained a much more powerful conventional force and a ever more serious night capability, even if not equal to that of NATO. This put forward defense on shaky grounds because the communist might punch through very quickly, become hard nuclear targets surrounded by German civilians, and overrun large portions of NATOs tactical nuclear forces as well as disrupting NATOs ability to shuffle around warheads. To meet this NATO needed enough conventional forces to deploy in depth, but NATO was not willing to fund active duty forces of the required scale, nor could several NATO members mobilize all that quickly. Forward defense was never going to beat the Soviets conventionally. NATO needed its reserves to deploy a defense in depth to seriously think about that. Deploying those reserves in large amounts would take at least a week, full deployment much longer. But the Soviet forces already in the Warsaw Pact could mobilize (even though they are all active duty they had to do stuff like pile ammo and fuel in all the trucks) in a couple days. That created a window of vulnerability. I forget the timelines in Red Army but it was aiming at this gap as I recall.

By the late 1980s people were working on some new technology that might have changed things, like what became sensor fused weapon, suddenly allowing artillery and aircraft to kill massed tanks in a way never ever before possible, potentially a perfect countermeasure to massed Soviet tactics, but such systems were not deployed until the mid 90s, and only then in very down scaled forms of what had originally been envisioned. A number of other systems like JSTARS and RAH-66 were also part of this, as well as some much more silly ideas like train hunting cruise missiles. This all came under the follow on forces attack heading. Basically, gain the defensive depth NATO lacked on the West German side of the border, by attacking the Soviets on the East German side.

One thing Gorbachev ordered in the late 1980s to reduce tensions, and acknowledge NATO fears on all this, was finally reduce the tank strength of the Group of Soviet Forces in Germany. NATO had actually been asking for this for a long time, on the basis that if as the Soviets claim the forces are only defensive (which was true and not true, the Soviets really did think offense the best defense even if NATO attacked first) they didn't need so many tanks. So Gorbachev had most of the tank divisions in the GSFG replace one tank regiment with a motor rifle regiment, converting them into motor rifle divisions. End result was less offensive power, but considerably greater defensive strength. Around this time we also now know the Soviets really did deemphasis training for offensive operations, and actually began training to defend river lines in East Germany and made troops default 'war' roll to dig into these positions rather then mass for the attack. Though, even with some reduction in number of tanks, GSFG was still really fucking powerful, and as I recall when Berlin wall fell the exchange had not yet been completed.

The Soviets BTW never liked forward defense either, because they knew it was a bad conventional defensive plan, and since they were not so sure NATO was really plotting to use nuclear weapons instantly, because of the clear political and strategic problem that created (they had no belief that limited nuclear war could occur, rightly so) they thought the real point of forward defense was to keep NATO posed for an attack on the Warsaw Pact. This wasn't such a threat on any random day, but it was a huge concern if one of the satellite states had a full scale uprising, or NATO attacked under cover of wargames that increased its forces in the field. Both sides had military liaison missions active on each others soil in no small part to reduce the chances that normal exercises were mistaken for war preparations but the risk remained for both sides.

The original NATO defensive plan was everyone hide behind the Rhine, the fallback strategy. This was the only way to defeat a Soviet conventional invasion with limited forces but it would mean giving up something like 80% of West Germany and half of Holland.
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Re: Red Army by Ralph Peters

Post by Blayne »

Woah, didn't notice the update :)

Was all of this planned with forces available in Europe at the time? Could have what I'll just call Operation Suvorov since he's the only Russian general I recall to operate in Western Europe, worked even if the Chinese attacked and aimed for Vladivostok to retake the amur watershed? The timeline I observed in the book was basically had the West Germans surrender Day Four or Five (I think they reached the Weser Day Three?), would this have been significantly too short for the PLA to react?

Which I think brings up an interesting question, if Europe was compromised by a West German collapse would have the United States potentially have turned to China to try to salvage containment and seen the rise of a Sino-American alliance regardless of the Six Four Incident?
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Re: Red Army by Ralph Peters

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The Chinese in the 1980s were a screaming hoard of infantry with about a dozen armored divisions in total and barely any modern tanks or anti tank weapons, in fact none at all prior to the later 1980s when the West and Israel sold them certain items. MiG-21 clone, T-54 clone, AT-3 Stagger clone was the top notch of PLA firepower.

The PLA is not going to fuck with the Soviets when the Soviets have already launched a gamble for world domination. The Chinese people would probably cease to exist before it was over if they tried, and that's before the Soviets drop any nukes. In fact until near the end of the 1980s the Chinese were not even accepting much like modern military strategy, they still had a 'peoples war' strategy which was almost entirely defensive, and the fresh memory of taking 50,000 casualties while being defeated by Vietnam in 1979 trying to use the shit for an army they had in offensive action. Mobilizing for a quick invasion of the USSR would be physically impossible.

Meanwhile the Soviet Union had enormous reserves, that goes with having over 150 motor rifle and tank divisions in the order of battle. The east and west and south had large groups of armies in the USSR assigned as reinforcements, plus several armies held deep inside the Soviet Union which could go to any of the 'strategic directions'. The Soviets could throw ~thirty more divisions into central Europe before they even had to think about drawing on the reserves earmarked for the far east. The war simply would be over before any of these forces could get into action, they made little sense to even have but the USSR didn't implode by being wise with military spending.

Soviet forces in the far east generally didn't have the best equipment or very high standards of readiness, which is why the Soviets were concerned about the area, but they were still immensely more powerful then anything the Chinese could assemble. The Chinese were a human sea, while Russia was the god of artillery and automatic weapons. The Chinese stay home.

And yeah, if NATO fell apart a lot of effort would go into building relations with China from the uS. That was in fact already happening in the late 1980s but a huge number of projects were cut short by the fall of the Berlin wall and Tiananmen square. Milan missiles and several models of helicopter, plus some thousands of 105mm tank guns actually made it into Communist Chinese service, as did Crotale anti aircraft missiles, but much more was in the works including TOW, possible Harrier and A-10 deals and rumors of much more advanced jet sales. Some of the stuff that was sold later then was cloned by the Chinese, in some cases with a license, in other cases basically Tiananmen square put a halt to a licensedeal but the Chinese reverse engineered what they already had.
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Re: Red Army by Ralph Peters

Post by weemadando »

On this topic, I just read Chieftains, which was pretty damn good at showing a similar "low level" view of the conflict from a few PoVs. Was considering getting Red Army at the same time, so given this chat I think I'll have to.
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Re: Red Army by Ralph Peters

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Sea Skimmer wrote:Team Yankee really just fails the reality check for me, though I'd say when I first read it ~15 years ago I was a fool to think highly of it. It sets up some at times interesting scenarios but they are really just sand table exercises connected by about nothing. Everything is far too clean and controlled and the Soviets are endlessly incompetent. Its based on The Third World War, but at least the set pieces in that book jumped around to different types of combat, and had stuff going utterly horrible for NATO when appropriate like the Milan company being left with a single survivor.

Sword Point was a little better, we can't blame Coyle for the absurd setup since people really thought it might happen, but if it did happen its plausible nukes wouldn't be used, and the core of the combat comes off a lot more like something that might happen in turn. Also the war starts by mistake, which was everyone's dire fear.
Hmm I see your point. I read Team Yankee and Red Army I think almost two decades ago myself so at the time they didn't seem particularly far fetched at all. Ian Slaters books I do remember as being terrible dreck. The whole historical and ahistorical timeline meddling does seem to be a problem all over. I mean it happens with Clancy too. In a world where a major city got blown up with a nuke, and america went to war with Japan and hte entire cabinet got killed, it boggles that 9/11 would be anything less than a relative footnote.

I've been trying without success to try to find a the title of a technotriller from the mid 90's about United Nations sanctioned Harriers operating from a converted tanker in the Antarctic to foil an Argentine plot to something something oil something. And in the end USS Enterprise comes in to clean up with the multinational characters grumbling about the "Americans" always "something big stick something arrogance something".

If you could point me to the title I would be oh so grateful :P
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Re: Red Army by Ralph Peters

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The Ian Slater books are so bad I think they had to have been written as a joke by the author to see how bad of crap you could throw out and still have people suck it down. I mean the radar guided torpedoes? Also of course, its plain that past the third one the author changed, but I'm not so sure even the third one was by the fool.

No idea on that Harrier one, it didn't have a DD-21 cutting through some waves on the cover did it?
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Re: Red Army by Ralph Peters

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It's definitely not anything by James Cobb, which is what it'd think off if the cover has a dd21.

I can't remember if it was slater or coyle that had a general bitching that the media doesnt knw that
apcs aren't tanks to his hot wife though. Might even be both.
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Re: Red Army by Ralph Peters

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Hell if I even remember, I just remember a bad book with a DD-21 and the Falklands war being something that exists I could look up if you recalled that. UN vs Argentina , yeah that should take over three days to resolve... sounds like a killer plot.
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Re: Red Army by Ralph Peters

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Sea Skimmer wrote:The Ian Slater books are so bad I think they had to have been written as a joke by the author to see how bad of crap you could throw out and still have people suck it down. I mean the radar guided torpedoes?
How about holographic torpedoes projected from Ukrainian satellite (that somehow are picked by sonar) during US/Russia naval exercises to cause war between the two?
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War is averted when plucky analyst thinks to rewind tape and finds out "torpedo" passed straight through USS Iowa before "hitting" Kirov (concealed bomb on board) :lol:
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Re: Red Army by Ralph Peters

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Whatever nonsense that is from is long past anything I read. Actually though that might not be as batshit impossible as radar for a torpedo, in theory some kind of high power light projection could create a thermocline in the water that would reflect active sonar.
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Re: Red Army by Ralph Peters

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Sea Skimmer wrote:Whatever nonsense that is from is long past anything I read. Actually though that might not be as batshit impossible as radar for a torpedo, in theory some kind of high power light projection could create a thermocline in the water that would reflect active sonar.
Well, you could *maybe* create something that will appear on sonar, but I doubt you can replicate the sound of torpedo engine or even create small, pinpoint signature of metal tube torpedo would have. IMHO, radar in torpedo is more plausible than this (you'd only need to run cable back to submarine to power your torpedo-sized radar with entire reactor output so it can barely see vicinity, but at least it would somewhat work :P ).
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Re: Red Army by Ralph Peters

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One of the things you notice about Soviet strategy concerning NATO is that much of it is the direct result of lessons learned from fighting the Nazis. Clearly the Soviets strongly disliked the idea of dug-in, set piece defensive battles that NATO was so fond of. It was all going to be gigantic, smashing armored thrusts aimed at NATO soft points to cut off and defeat the west in detail.

It turns out it was the Russians who perfected the art of Blitzkrieg.
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Re: Red Army by Ralph Peters

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Interesting... did the NATO preference for defensive battles grow out of watching things like Stalingrad and Kursk, do you think? 'Cause that would be deliciously ironic.
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Re: Red Army by Ralph Peters

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CaptHawkeye wrote:One of the things you notice about Soviet strategy concerning NATO is that much of it is the direct result of lessons learned from fighting the Nazis. Clearly the Soviets strongly disliked the idea of dug-in, set piece defensive battles that NATO was so fond of. It was all going to be gigantic, smashing armored thrusts aimed at NATO soft points to cut off and defeat the west in detail.
Well, thats because NATO strategy/tactics were pretty similar in many respects to Nazi strategy/tactics. And guess who ripped apart the Wehrmacht.
It turns out it was the Russians who perfected the art of Blitzkrieg.
Deep Battle =/= Blitzkrieg.
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