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 Post subject: Facsist Italy verses Nazi Germany (RAR!) PostPosted: 2012-08-27 05:04pm
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I remember hearing something that was basically that there was in the late 1930s there was some serious political stress between the Third Reich and Mussolini's Italy that might have culminated in war between the two states. So i wonder, could this actually of happened and if it did, what would be the consequences? I know that German aircraft and armored fighting vehicles were generally superior to Italian ones, germany has an industrial advantage, a larger population and fielded a larger military, but on the same note doing so meant one more enemy to fight and deprive it of it's biggest ally in Europe. What would be the results of such a war in world history afterwards?

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Last edited by Zor on 2012-08-27 07:57pm, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Facsist Italy verses Nazi Germany (RAR!) PostPosted: 2012-08-27 05:13pm
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I think germany would had bulldozed over Italy, but it would had been suicidal given such a conflict would had brought France into it (assuming this is at a time when Germany was threatened with war if it invaded Poland) even before then Germany was ambtious in reclaiming any territory as much at it could without being at war. Had they took on Italy they would had been unprepared for any attack by the larger contiental powers. Italy had a better navy and more men and tanks, plus Italy is far larger then Poland and had accses to the oils from north africa. Even if germany crushed Italy, France or the soviet union would had been ready to take full advantage.

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 Post subject: Re: Facsist Italy verses Nazi Germany (RAR!) PostPosted: 2012-08-27 05:20pm
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Zor wrote:
I remember hearing something that was basically that there was in the late 1930s there was some serious political stress between the Third Reich and Mussolini's Italy that might have culminated in war between the two states. So i wonder, could this actually of happened and if it did, what would be the consequences? I know that German aircraft and armored fighting vehicles were generally superior to Italian ones and Germany had a larger population and a larger military, but on the same note doing so meant one more enemy to fight and deprive it of it's biggest ally in Europe. What would be the results of such a war in world history?


If the departure consists of Britain and France not pissing off Mussolini over Abyssinia, and Italy going to war with Germany over Austria in 1938 (who knows why, given that Hitler backed down the last time Mussolini told him to over that subject) the Germans would probably be in trouble. They'd be advancing against defended positions over mountainous terrain, against opposition with better kit than they had, plus a much better chance of Britain and France getting stuck in given the knowledge that the Italians were on-side.



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 Post subject: Re: Facsist Italy verses Nazi Germany (RAR!) PostPosted: 2012-08-27 06:51pm
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Yeah, not so much of a German advantage in aircraft or tanks in 1938, in fact almost no German tanks have more then machine guns and 2cm cannon in the first place while Germany would be very short on ammunition attacking across mountains Italy had heavily fortified precisely in expectation of such a war. German meanwhile would also have had very little artillery over 15cm, big disadvantage in mountain fighting while modern bombers are only just coming into production and few Bf 109s yet exist to provide an advantage over Italian aircraft. In realistic terms such a war would stalemate with Italy accepting German occupation of Austria after its intervention is beaten off, if it was a fight to a finish the Germans would eventually win but at the cost of derailing Hitlers world conquest plans, as the Czechs will make very good use of the time, and leaving him even more completely isolated.



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 Post subject: Re: Facsist Italy verses Nazi Germany (RAR!) PostPosted: 2012-08-27 10:58pm
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Sea Skimmer wrote:
Yeah, not so much of a German advantage in aircraft or tanks in 1938, in fact almost no German tanks have more then machine guns and 2cm cannon in the first place while Germany would be very short on ammunition attacking across mountains Italy had heavily fortified precisely in expectation of such a war. German meanwhile would also have had very little artillery over 15cm, big disadvantage in mountain fighting while modern bombers are only just coming into production and few Bf 109s yet exist to provide an advantage over Italian aircraft. In realistic terms such a war would stalemate with Italy accepting German occupation of Austria after its intervention is beaten off, if it was a fight to a finish the Germans would eventually win but at the cost of derailing Hitlers world conquest plans, as the Czechs will make very good use of the time, and leaving him even more completely isolated.


I think that ironically, this could leave Germany as a stronger power than in OTL if it results in Germany and Austria unified but the Nazi attempts at easy conquests discredited and attempts to conquer the Czechs and Poles prevented and a full blown European war avoided. Especially if the unpreparedness for war triggers a coup against the Nazi government.

This puts Germany at its 1919 borders + Austria rather than the truncated ruin that was left in 1945 after another full scale war, with the biggest economy and by far the largest population of non-Soviet Europe. Ultimately WW2 was a losing proposition for Germany in almost every event, getting Anschluss and then dominating Eastern Europe politically and economically is a better option than attempts at conquest that lead to an inevitable defeat.

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 Post subject: Re: Facsist Italy verses Nazi Germany (RAR!) PostPosted: 2012-08-28 07:49am
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Realistically, Hitler's power would be seriously weakened if he failed to subdue Italy. (I guess France would just sit out that very obvious result.) With gaining Austria, which wasn't that valuable, Germany would have lost a lot with little in return, and his aura seriously dented, but he wouldn't have angered the Allied powers too much.

By then, the Germans would basically already be running a war economy for a decade, and soon the whole thing would start to unravel at the seams, sending them into a depression. To hide this problem, Hitler would need a war. But his military would be too beaten up to start another war, and certainly would refuse marching orders if he would send them against Czechoslovakia or Poland with France and Britain rattling their (by that time well mobilized) sabres.

When Russia finally starts to act against Finland or Poland (both attacks were just a matter of time), which would probably provoke the "Anglo-French Russian War", Germany probably would join the war on the British side (Hitler always adored them) against Russia, finally having the war he dreamed of. It would be as severe as WW2, but would take place in Scandinavia and Eastern Europe instead of Central/Western Europe.



The Greeks are somewhat undependable allies when it comes to keeping promises. I am sure the fleet of 300 galleys they promised will turn out to be 3 guys in an oversized cooking pot. (Thanas, revealing the plans for German world domination)

I do archery skeet. With a Trebuchet.

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 Post subject: Re: Facsist Italy verses Nazi Germany (RAR!) PostPosted: 2012-08-28 08:00am
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If it's fought in Austria in 1938, Italy will probably win due a simple fact: Austria is the most favorable terrain to the Italian army thanks to the experience matured in World War I. The Germans were already better equipped, but the only armies who could actually match the Italians in that one terrain were the Swiss (for obvious reasons) and the ones from the former Austro-Hungarian Empire (that fought Italy in high mountain during World War I and had the same experience), and those armies would have been neutral or, in the Austrian case, on the Italian side.
Invading Germany would probably be impossible, but there was a very good reason if Hitler stayed clear of Austria as long as Italy said so...

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 Post subject: Re: Facsist Italy verses Nazi Germany (RAR!) PostPosted: 2012-08-28 12:00pm
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Sorry, but German troops were in Austria and already annexed it. Italy would have to move into Austria, and it is much easier to get reinforcements into Austria from Germany than to come over the Alps, as the Italians would need to.

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The Germans would have no problem occupying all the noteworthy flat territory, while the Italians would have nothing but the Alps between them and Germany. The only route they would be realistically able to take would be over Klagenfurt, and this would mean they would meet all German force head on, after just passing the Alps. Tirol is almost impenetrable for a mechanized force - you would be sitting ducks on small passes, no cover from anything that flies, and every knocked out vehicle would be a huge roadblock.



The Greeks are somewhat undependable allies when it comes to keeping promises. I am sure the fleet of 300 galleys they promised will turn out to be 3 guys in an oversized cooking pot. (Thanas, revealing the plans for German world domination)

I do archery skeet. With a Trebuchet.

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 Post subject: Re: Facsist Italy verses Nazi Germany (RAR!) PostPosted: 2012-08-30 03:31pm
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The German troops moved in after the Italian ones moved out and left the local fascist government to fend for himself. And the impenetrability for mechanized forces is actually one of the reasons the Italians would win: without those, the Germans would have to fight on the Italian terms, with no ability to blitzkrieg their way through the Italian lines.

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 Post subject: Re: Facsist Italy verses Nazi Germany (RAR!) PostPosted: 2012-08-30 05:27pm
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After the attempted coup in July, 1934, Italian troops were mobilized at the borders, but did not enter Austria. January 1935, Mussolini gave Hitler green light to annect Austria. At no point Italian troops were in Austria.

And if Germany and Italy were to start a mad race into Austria, Germany would occupy most of the important territory by the time the Italians would have crossed the Brenner. The armies would probably meet somewhere near Graz.

The Brenner serves as a bottleneck for reenforcements. This would almost ensure a victory for Germany on Austrian territory, while doing the same for Italy if Germany crosses.

Since Germany wants Austria, occupation is a win. (although Südtirol and Trentino would certainly fall to the Italians) Since Italy wants a free Austria, bombing it to rubble won't get them brownie points. Also, they would be restricted to aerial combat, since both sides could effectively block the Brenner by airpower. It's a classic mexican standoff.



The Greeks are somewhat undependable allies when it comes to keeping promises. I am sure the fleet of 300 galleys they promised will turn out to be 3 guys in an oversized cooking pot. (Thanas, revealing the plans for German world domination)

I do archery skeet. With a Trebuchet.

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 Post subject: Re: Facsist Italy verses Nazi Germany (RAR!) PostPosted: 2012-08-31 02:39am
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So basically it would come down to if France decided to get involved.
Would Italy taking a stand get France involved? They might see it as an easy way to beat down Germany.

note: I'm not really familiar with the political situation of France/Germany/Italy at the time.



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 Post subject: Re: Facsist Italy verses Nazi Germany (RAR!) PostPosted: 2012-08-31 07:48am
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The situation was more or less the following.
Until 1936, France sees Italy as an ally, but not one useful enough to bother help in the League of Nations. Also, Germany remains the old foe, but is still useful to keep the Soviet Union at bay, and as long as they don't attack anything important or become dangerous will let them do as they wish (partly because they're still behind when it comes to rearmament).
Italy is neutrally hostile to Germany, as Mussolini considers Hitler a madman, and relatively friendly to France. France not helping with the embargo ordered by the League of Nations after the conquest of Abyssinia in 1936 and Germany giving the League the middle finger and helping economically Italy reversed the situation, with France seen as traitors and Germany as a necessary ally (by march 1938 Italy will throw Austria to the wolves). Note: at this point in time, Italy is the second strongest military power of continental Europe, as Germany is well behind in the rearmament process and France has just begun, while Italy has kept had never truly disarmed (Soviet Union is the biggest power, if only due sheer numbers). By 1938 both France and Germany will have surpassed Italy in terms of military power, as Italian industry was still weak and unable to fully support the needed modernization (the Royal Italian Navy will remain a power to be reckoned with, but the Air Force and the Army will be plagued by antiquated equipment, with the Army further weakened by the endemic corruption and nepotism of the officer corps and, outside a few specialized units and the Bersaglieri assault troops, truly capable only in mountain warfare).
Germany is hostile to France and friendly to Italy, but is still militarily weak (needing the Czechoslovakian weapon factories). Economic help and the renounce to former Austrian territories will gain Italy as an ally, and by 1938 there will be no problem at invading.
LaCroix wrote:
After the attempted coup in July, 1934, Italian troops were mobilized at the borders, but did not enter Austria. January 1935, Mussolini gave Hitler green light to annect Austria. At no point Italian troops were in Austria.

Checked. Mussolini didn't give the green light until 1938, but I have to concede that Mussolini never sent troops due the clear opposition of the Austrian public opinion (until they were invaded, at least).
LaCroix wrote:
And if Germany and Italy were to start a mad race into Austria, Germany would occupy most of the important territory by the time the Italians would have crossed the Brenner. The armies would probably meet somewhere near Graz.

By this point, German mechanized forces were badly organized and poorly coordinated (a factor unknown to everyone until the Anschluss itself), and the Austrian Army would have been able to stop them at the border.
LaCroix wrote:
The Brenner serves as a bottleneck for reenforcements. This would almost ensure a victory for Germany on Austrian territory, while doing the same for Italy if Germany crosses.

Assuming the Germans can pass the border, it's true.
LaCroix wrote:
Since Germany wants Austria, occupation is a win. (although Südtirol and Trentino would certainly fall to the Italians) Since Italy wants a free Austria, bombing it to rubble won't get them brownie points. Also, they would be restricted to aerial combat, since both sides could effectively block the Brenner by airpower. It's a classic mexican standoff.

Not quite.
1)Trentino and South Tyrol (Alto Adige in Italy) were already Italian territory (and still are). If you meant the still Austrian part Tyrol by that, then you're right, it would most probably fall immediately.
2)Italy's main objective was to keep clear the way to Hungary (with which they had good economic relations, and Austria was the best way to trade). What they need to call it a win would be the mountains in the south (that are guaranteed to be occupied, as the Austrians would be busy at the German border), Vienna and anything east of it. It depends on how long the Austrians can stop the Germans and the Wehrmacht can reorganize its troops, but if the Austrians can hold long enough the Italians occupy everything they're interested into and will reinforce them.
3)Nope. You can't block a mountain pass with air power, not with the airplanes and bombs of the time. The only ways were to march there and place a garrison or to blow up the mountain over it (a good reason for why the Italian soldiers of World War I hated the Austro-Hungarian ones was that the latters were better at sneaking up and set the explosive to blow up mountains under your feet). Or, if the nearby mountains had the right places, placing artillery to shell anyone trying to pass. Airplanes of the times were too light and had inadequate bombs for the task, and any attempt would mean give the troops a good laugh as the bombers try and fail to bomb them in spite of the winds.

Long story short: before Abyssinia, the smart thing for Hitler would be to stay clear of Austria, for an invasion would be kicked back and the French could decide he's too much trouble to keep and invade on the western border; after Abyssinia and before late 1938, the Italians can still defend Austria successfully, but they could decide it's not worth it (and in real life Hitler made sure the Italians decided so beforehand); after late 1938 (when the Czechoslovakian factories have produced enough tanks to quickly overwhelm the Austrians at the border) Germany wins, occupying the important territories before the Italians can pass all the mountains and move troops there, at which point the aftermath depends on Mussolini deciding to either recognize the new status quo and let him grab the country (most probable), grab the mountains at the south (possibly as bargaining chip for the link to Hungary) or go to war (highly improbable: the Italians are undefeatable in the mountains, but the Germans are superior in the plains, there would be little gain in case of victory and the other defender of Austrian independence is France, with which Italy isn't in good relations).

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 Post subject: Re: Facsist Italy verses Nazi Germany (RAR!) PostPosted: 2012-08-31 08:28am
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I was going for a late 1938 scenario, for plausibility reasons. Any earlier attempt would be so obviously futile that Germany wouldn't have taken it.

I still disagree on the can't block mountain pass issues. I've been over these passes a couple of times, and each of the possible routes could easily be blocked by a couple of bombs, making it impassable until it got cleared. A few sorties per week would be enough to keep the roads in a state that can't be passed by anything but infantry. (Which would be slaughtered if they try to walk that path and into well-fixed defenses on the other side...)

Oh, and on the point of the Austrian resistance - it would be non-existent... They only needed the German 8th Army to occupy the land, and the Germans were not fought, at all. Only chancellor Schuschnigg opposed Germany, the population and almost everyone else supported the annexation (Although not 99%, as the forged survey would later claim).



The Greeks are somewhat undependable allies when it comes to keeping promises. I am sure the fleet of 300 galleys they promised will turn out to be 3 guys in an oversized cooking pot. (Thanas, revealing the plans for German world domination)

I do archery skeet. With a Trebuchet.

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 Post subject: Re: Facsist Italy verses Nazi Germany (RAR!) PostPosted: 2012-09-08 03:59am
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LaCroix wrote:
I was going for a late 1938 scenario, for plausibility reasons. Any earlier attempt would be so obviously futile that Germany wouldn't have taken it.

In that case, Germany can win easily.
LaCroix wrote:
I still disagree on the can't block mountain pass issues. I've been over these passes a couple of times, and each of the possible routes could easily be blocked by a couple of bombs, making it impassable until it got cleared. A few sorties per week would be enough to keep the roads in a state that can't be passed by anything but infantry. (Which would be slaughtered if they try to walk that path and into well-fixed defenses on the other side...)

There are a few problems with that.
First, you need a BIG bomb, with more explosive than the SC250 already in service in the Luftwaffe or the 'Cow Shit' of the Regia Aeronautica (early WWII Italian aerial bombs had been nicknamed Cow Shit by the Navy because they had more or less the same effect on anything tough, like steel or rock). The SC500 would probably be more than enough, but I can't find out when it was first deployed.
Second, you need something that can place a bomb there in spite of the winds of high mountains. The Do23 and the He111 had the weight to not be smashed against the mountain in the attack run, but Luftwaffe planes of the time were quite imprecise (again, found out only in the invasion of Poland) and dropping the bomb and its weight could have 'interesting' effects on the ability to control it.
Finally, without blowing up the mountain, infantry with donkeys, mules and hinnies carrying their supplies and mortars would still pass. And that's precisely what mountain troops of the time were: infantry with donkeys, mules (preferred) and hinnies carrying their supplies and mortars. The occupation of the mountains would still be inevitable.
LaCroix wrote:
Oh, and on the point of the Austrian resistance - it would be non-existent... They only needed the German 8th Army to occupy the land, and the Germans were not fought, at all. Only chancellor Schuschnigg opposed Germany, the population and almost everyone else supported the annexation (Although not 99%, as the forged survey would later claim).

As far as I recall, most of the population was against annexation (to the point the Russians could actually use this to make Austrian soldiers desert even before the Sixth Army was surrounded), especially after the attempted Nazi coup of 1935. When the Germans actually invaded there was no fight because the politicians knew that without support they would ultimately lose and ordered the army to not oppose them, but with support incoming the Wehrmacht would have been opposed and, before late 1938, stopped.

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 Post subject: Re: Facsist Italy verses Nazi Germany (RAR!) PostPosted: 2012-09-08 09:58pm
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A big chunk of the alps are too steep for donkeys or mules to be effective. Huge numbers of aerial cable ways and rope hoists were required to supply the mountain fighting in WW1, and of course, the mountain lines almost never moved as a result. Nobody is sustaining a major attack through the high alps.



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 Post subject: Re: Facsist Italy verses Nazi Germany (RAR!) PostPosted: 2012-09-09 05:07pm
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lord Martiya wrote:
There are a few problems with that.
First, you need a BIG bomb, with more explosive than the SC250 already in service in the Luftwaffe or the 'Cow Shit' of the Regia Aeronautica (early WWII Italian aerial bombs had been nicknamed Cow Shit by the Navy because they had more or less the same effect on anything tough, like steel or rock). The SC500 would probably be more than enough, but I can't find out when it was first deployed.
Second, you need something that can place a bomb there in spite of the winds of high mountains. The Do23 and the He111 had the weight to not be smashed against the mountain in the attack run, but Luftwaffe planes of the time were quite imprecise (again, found out only in the invasion of Poland) and dropping the bomb and its weight could have 'interesting' effects on the ability to control it.
Finally, without blowing up the mountain, infantry with donkeys, mules and hinnies carrying their supplies and mortars would still pass. And that's precisely what mountain troops of the time were: infantry with donkeys, mules (preferred) and hinnies carrying their supplies and mortars. The occupation of the mountains would still be inevitable.

An occupation of the alps is inevitable, I agree, and would lead to a messy meat grind as they reenact WWI style battles in there. As I stated, and Skimmer agrees, you simply can't fight across the alps. Either you find a way around it or dig in at a convenient position.

Also, the bombs were there, even the Stuka A series was capable of carrying the SC 500, but they mention the A1 could only do so if the navigator was left behind. I know that the Ju88 A1 also was capable to deliver 500kg bombs. The SC1000 was introduced by the end of 1939, so it was existing as prototypes in 1938, as well.

Quote:
As far as I recall, most of the population was against annexation (to the point the Russians could actually use this to make Austrian soldiers desert even before the Sixth Army was surrounded), especially after the attempted Nazi coup of 1935. When the Germans actually invaded there was no fight because the politicians knew that without support they would ultimately lose and ordered the army to not oppose them, but with support incoming the Wehrmacht would have been opposed and, before late 1938, stopped.

Tell this the cheering masses. The annexation is a big black mark on our history, but we managed to play the victim card like a violon after the war. In fact, most Austrians very much agreed with the Germans, and welcomed the "unification". Jsut look at the rank sof the worst offenders among the nazi officers, you will find a overrepresentation of Austrians.

The unification was something most austrians wanted, even some social problems were not taken care of because we saw the solution in an unification (after it became obvious that the KuK monarchy would never reform in any way). This is why the Versailles contract explicitly forbade a unification. Not because we didn't want it, but because they knew we wanted, and didn't want Germany to become stronger...



The Greeks are somewhat undependable allies when it comes to keeping promises. I am sure the fleet of 300 galleys they promised will turn out to be 3 guys in an oversized cooking pot. (Thanas, revealing the plans for German world domination)

I do archery skeet. With a Trebuchet.

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 Post subject: Re: Facsist Italy verses Nazi Germany (RAR!) PostPosted: 2012-09-09 06:24pm
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A grinding German-Italian war in the Alps... what would the effects of that be? How are France and Britain going to take this? Or Poland, or Russia?



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 Post subject: Re: Facsist Italy verses Nazi Germany (RAR!) PostPosted: 2012-09-09 09:53pm
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They would all be incredibly happy and continue rearmament as planned. The Czechs would gain the most, since historically in 1938 they had completed the structure of the bulk of the heavy concrete bunkers they had planned, but said bunkers were almost completely lacking key armored pieces as well as all artillery turrets, effectively making the lines one of oversized machine gun positions rather then an improved rival to the Maginot Line. This was a major factor in the Czech decision not to oppose Hitler over the Sudetenland. Any serious delay would let them start completing these works.

But considering Hitlers historical economic problems, war with Italy is going to force him into a full scale war economy and create serious problems very quickly, maybe a lot more quickly then the outbreak of WW2 did. He wont have Czech or Polish gold to payoff anyone with, doesn't have millions of POWs as high quality slave labor, doesn't have a deal with the USSR to trade technology for vast amounts of raw materials on credit, doesn't have the neutrals in complete fear. That would create an incentive to widen the war, but any widening of the war would be certain defeat because its bound to end up as everyone in Europe short of Russia vs Germany.



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 Post subject: Re: Facsist Italy verses Nazi Germany (RAR!) PostPosted: 2012-09-24 05:03pm
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LaCroix wrote:
An occupation of the alps is inevitable, I agree, and would lead to a messy meat grind as they reenact WWI style battles in there. As I stated, and Skimmer agrees, you simply can't fight across the alps. Either you find a way around it or dig in at a convenient position.

Everyone who has been there knows it. It would depend on the ability of Luftwaffe to actually block the passes (the Royal Italian Air Force, for all its grandstanding, was pretty pitiful when it came to the bombs to deliver).
LaCroix wrote:
Also, the bombs were there, even the Stuka A series was capable of carrying the SC 500, but they mention the A1 could only do so if the navigator was left behind. I know that the Ju88 A1 also was capable to deliver 500kg bombs. The SC1000 was introduced by the end of 1939, so it was existing as prototypes in 1938, as well.

OK. The bombs were there. The question is: could the planes actually manage and live to tell? That's the other part of the problem.
LaCroix wrote:
Tell this the cheering masses. The annexation is a big black mark on our history, but we managed to play the victim card like a violon after the war. In fact, most Austrians very much agreed with the Germans, and welcomed the "unification". Jsut look at the rank sof the worst offenders among the nazi officers, you will find a overrepresentation of Austrians.

I'll check, hoping I wasn't led astray by the usual politicized teaching of history in Italy.
Simon_Jester wrote:
A grinding German-Italian war in the Alps... what would the effects of that be? How are France and Britain going to take this? Or Poland, or Russia?

Short answer: pass the pop corns.
Long answer: as the war goes on, France and Britain continue rearming without intervening (aside possible economic support to Italy to allow a continuation of the fighting), Czechoslovakia use all its weapon factories to fortify the German border enough to make Switzerland look wide open, Poland rearms to defend the border, Russia rearms and looks, and Hungary may either stay neutral or enter the war to help Italy (the one reason Italy would enter the war would be to keep the way open to trade with Hungary, and Hungary has the same reason to fight and 'preserve Austrian freedom'). Also, Italy learns earlier that biplane fighters are outdated and their bombs aren't really good, and, without Germany and Italy sending 'volunteers', the Spanish Civil War is quickly won by the Republicans (if it happens at all). And if Hitler tries and expands the war to the 'easy' and rich Polish target there's the horrible discovery that the Polish not only aren't that easy as target but they have defeated the Enigma machine in use at the time, and thus know exactly where and when to strike.
End result: the Republic of Spain cannot even imagine what horrors it avoided; Italy is militarily and politically stronger and has achieved the war aim of preserving 'Austrian freedom' (code for 'trade way for Hungary') but economically dependent on British help (and Mussolini is kicking himself in the ass for that), with possible reawakening of the anti-fascist factions; Germany is economically ruined, with the Nazi out of the way (for now, at least); Austria suffers what Spain has avoided, and the population is royally (and rightly) pissed at their 'liberators'; Stalin and the Polish government have enjoyed the show.

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 Post subject: Re: Facsist Italy verses Nazi Germany (RAR!) PostPosted: 2012-09-24 05:45pm
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That assumes Italy will win the war instead of screwing it up as they usually did in every war in the 20th century.



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A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood

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 Post subject: Re: Facsist Italy verses Nazi Germany (RAR!) PostPosted: 2012-09-25 05:33pm
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That's because high mountain is the one battlefield where they couldn't screw up, if nothing else because the Alpini (Italian mountain troops) and their officers were recruited among people who already lived in high mountain, and the high command (usually) had enough common sense to let them lead the way in that battlefield. Once they reached the plains the career officers would take over and screw up, but at least in high mountain they knew what to do.
The war would have probably gone this way:
1)the Germans enter from North. The Austrian troops, sent there to stop them, fire a few shots to honour the flag and surrender;
2)the Italians enter from South, and, with most of the troops sent to stop the Germans, conquer the Alpine regions in little time (for mountain fighting, anyway);
3)when the Italians reach the central plain the Germans have already occupied everything important, but Mussolini orders to attack anyway;
4)the Italians, strong of their military superiority, break through and conquer Vienna;
5)some Italian general screws up, and the Germans (including the former Austrian army) retake Vienna. The Italians run back to the Alps;
6)the Italians, led by the Alpini and strong of their current military superiority, stop the German counteroffensive on the Alps. Britain and France start supporting Italy's weak economy to preserve their military superiority in anti-Hitler function;
7)the Italians break through again, but this time the Germans are ready and kick them back faster, possibly before reaching Vienna (depending on when the Italian general screws up again);
8)rinse and repeat 7) until the Germans run out of weapons or the Hungarians invade from South to 'preserve Austrian freedom', whichever comes first;
9)Austria is 'liberated', and Hitler falls. Peace, finally!;
10)Mussolini finally realizes he was played like a fiddle and has someone kick him in the ass, and Chamberlain chalks 'taking down those wacky Nazis' and 'making Mussolini harmless to Britain' from his To Do-List.

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 Post subject: Re: Facsist Italy verses Nazi Germany (RAR!) PostPosted: 2012-09-30 05:04am
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lord Martiya wrote:
That's because high mountain is the one battlefield where they couldn't screw up, if nothing else because the Alpini (Italian mountain troops) and their officers were recruited among people who already lived in high mountain, and the high command (usually) had enough common sense to let them lead the way in that battlefield. Once they reached the plains the career officers would take over and screw up, but at least in high mountain they knew what to do.
The war would have probably gone this way:
1)the Germans enter from North. The Austrian troops, sent there to stop them, fire a few shots to honour the flag and surrender;
2)the Italians enter from South, and, with most of the troops sent to stop the Germans, conquer the Alpine regions in little time (for mountain fighting, anyway);


Eh what? How is that even remotely plausible? Austria surrenders to Germany but leaves few troops on the Italian side? Not buying that one, especially considering both Austria and Germany had good mountain troops as well.

Quote:
3)when the Italians reach the central plain the Germans have already occupied everything important, but Mussolini orders to attack anyway;
4)the Italians, strong of their military superiority, break through and conquer Vienna;


How? With what heavy artillery and what tanks?



Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
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A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood

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 Post subject: Re: Facsist Italy verses Nazi Germany (RAR!) PostPosted: 2012-10-01 05:44pm
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Thanas wrote:
Eh what? How is that even remotely plausible? Austria surrenders to Germany but leaves few troops on the Italian side? Not buying that one, especially considering both Austria and Germany had good mountain troops as well.

The Army surrenders to Germany. The government, being basically an Italian puppet, sends it all to stop the Germans, only to discover that the troops were just paying lip-service. And when the unified German-Austrian troops move back to retake the mountains the Italian Army can block the way by firing from the top of the mountains, as they did in WWI in the aftermath of Caporetto (the Italian defense in the mountain front was centered on the mountain Grappa, from which they shelled into submission the Austrians every time they entered range for an attack).
Thanas wrote:
How? With what heavy artillery and what tanks?

Don't know about the artillery, but the tanks are the Carden Loyd tankette (L.2/29 for the Italians), L3/33, L3/35, L.5/21 and L.5/30. Not the best vehicles around, but comparable with the Panzer I and Panzer II and, without the Czechoslovakians weapon factories, more numerous.
A well-equipped army would easily walk over the Italians in the plains, but at this point the Germans are not well equipped. I admit that the Italians would be fried after the Germans occupied Czechoslovakia and learned how to drive the captured tanks (even before beefing up the numbers of Panzer I and II and start producing the III and IV), as I have more than a shred of common sense, but before that the Italians have superior numbers of comparable tanks, and the Germans didn't find out about their pre-war coordination problems until the annexation of Austria.

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 Post subject: Re: Facsist Italy verses Nazi Germany (RAR!) PostPosted: 2012-10-02 07:02pm
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lord Martiya wrote:
Thanas wrote:
Eh what? How is that even remotely plausible? Austria surrenders to Germany but leaves few troops on the Italian side? Not buying that one, especially considering both Austria and Germany had good mountain troops as well.

The Army surrenders to Germany. The government, being basically an Italian puppet


How so? How was Austria an Italian puppet?

Quote:
, sends it all to stop the Germans, only to discover that the troops were just paying lip-service. And when the unified German-Austrian troops move back to retake the mountains the Italian Army can block the way by firing from the top of the mountains, as they did in WWI in the aftermath of Caporetto (the Italian defense in the mountain front was centered on the mountain Grappa, from which they shelled into submission the Austrians every time they entered range for an attack).


Oh, you just magically assume the Austrian Army will just stop defending the mountain passes. That is just....odd. As to your tank answer, maybe I should have phrased it better. Like "how will Italy get the tanks and artillery in position".

You assume the Italians will just somehow be able to roll over the Austrians and take the mountains. That is not supported by any evidence, nor do you present any that the local commanders were in bed with the Italians.



Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood

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 Post subject: Re: Facsist Italy verses Nazi Germany (RAR!) PostPosted: 2012-10-02 07:18pm
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It’s interesting how you cite the aftermath of Caporeto, and ignore how during the battle numerous fortified Italian mountains already fell. Grappa and the Paive river line held because heavy snow was falling, the attacking Astrogoths were exhausted and suffering from the Spanish flu, and the Italians finally had motivation to fight because they realized that loss of this line would mean the loss of northern Italian and probably Italian participation in the war. The will to fight in the high mountains of Austria will be much much weaker. I doubt the Italians would put up all that effective fight before they fall back to the fortifications on the Italian side of the border. All the more so because Mussolini would almost certainly put his blackshirt units in the vanguard, and once they get torn apart the streams of shattered retreating men will demoralize and disorganize the regular army coming up behind them.



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