Well this summer I decided I was gonna teach myself something novel and exciting. I was going to teach myself how to jump with a parachute. Paid the entire class, about $2500, a month ago, last week it started. We spent a few days doing the pre-jump classes, loads and loads of safety stuff. They assured us that accidents were rare, about 1 in 100.000 jumps statistically speaking.
Two days ago I did my first two jumps from 4 km, with one instructor flying on each side of me.
It was really the craziest experience ever, like hovering above a toy-model town.
Yesterday I was scheduled for my third jump, my heart was racing, just as we were getting ready to board the plane a group of "Swoopers" were landing about 100 meters away, suddenly one of them tried to turn left just as he was about to land.
He struck the ground waaay to fast, leaning about 45 degrees to the left (you are supposed to land standing as straight as possible), and everyone gasped and ran over to help him. A few minutes later I realized it was one of the guys I had talked to a couple of times during the classes. He was a real pro, something like 2000 jumps logged. Word from the hospital now is that most of his lower abdomen; legs, ankles, pelvis and spinal cord were ruined, also a really messed up left arm and shoulder, I caught a glimpse of him laying on his stomach making these awful gurgling pain noises, feet and legs twisted in a really unnatural way before the paramedics took him away. He's never going to walk again, in a medically induced coma right now.
What the hell should I do? I only did 2 out of 10 jumps I paid for, should I try to get some of the money back? I know it sounds greedy and stupid but it was a big expense in my book... Should I perhaps wait a few weeks and then go back and try to continue the class?
I'm feeling sick right now at the mere thought of boarding that diesel smelling plane again. My stupid "summer-plan" went straight to hell
First, holy shit man, that...that must've been a shock.
Second, it wasn't a "stupid plan" at all ; Accidents are rare in skydiving. The guy just had shitty luck and/or made a big mistake. You did not make a bad decision: no more than somebody who gets into his car and then gets t-boned by a truck did.
That said, I understand perfectly why you don't want to continue.
I can't give you any precise advice but this: sit down and think. The choice is really quite simple: if you don't feel that you can jump again, quit and get your money back. There's no point in forcing yourself to finish the class if you aren't going to get any fun out of it.
Unless you want to have a career related to skydiving, that is.
JULY 20TH 1969 - The day the entire world was looking up
It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth. I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth. I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small. - NEIL ARMSTRONG, MISSION COMMANDER, APOLLO 11
Signature dedicated to the greatest achievement of mankind.
MILDLY DERANGED PHYSICIST does not mind BREAKING the SOUND BARRIER, because it is INSURED. - Simon_Jester considering the problems of hypersonic flight for Team L.A.M.E.
They did not lie to you. Skydiving accidents really are rare. In fact, statistically speaking, skydiving is safer than the ultralight and homebuilt/experimental airplane flying I used to do.
However, accidents DO happen.
This self-reflection, doubt, and questioning you are currently undergoing is not only perfectly normal, it's actually a good thing.
Let me relate a personal anecdote. About 40 minutes after my very first flight lesson I was watching my instructor take off with another student. Something went wrong and the aircraft went nose-first into the runway. There we all were, standing around in silent shock for a few seconds looking at this aircraft standing on it's nose, tail quivering in the air.
I was with the group that ran out to the wreck. As it happened, both men were alive and conscious. It took about 6 or 8 people to physically lift the wreck off them so they could crawl out. The injuries did not appear to be life-threatening, but one had blood pouring out of his nose and both turned out to have broken ribs. One made a complete recovery, but the other, the instructor, turned out to not only have a broken nose but most of the bones around center of his face broken, and it turned out it wasn't just blood he was leaking but cerebrospinal fluid as well (or as he put it, "brain juice"). He escaped brain infection, but he wound up losing all his teeth and after a series of medical complications wound up with some heart damage. The aircraft was folded up and twisted. It wasn't a high-speed crash, it being an ultralight, but the aircraft looked like Godzilla had stepped on it. I was with the crew that helped get it up on a flatbed trailer and haul it off the runway.
Then I went home and pondered that the aircraft I'd been in, that had seemed so safe and fun, had crashed and serious injuries ensued less than an hour after I had been in it. Then I noticed I had gotten blood as well as grass and oil stains on the shirt I had been wearing and threw it away. Then I thought some more.
I wasn't the only person to have a first lesson that day. I was the only one of that group to go back.
It was not the last, nor the worst, aviation accident I've witnessed.
Accidents are rare but they do happen. As you have seen personally, the accidents can be devastating. From what you describe, most likely the guy himself made a mistake during his landing. That doesn't make him bad or incompetent or whatever, it just makes him human. Unfortunately, the sky and gravity are both unforgiving motherfuckers.
It's up to YOU whether or not you want to continue. Yes, accidents are rare, there is much you can do to avoid them, but they do happen. It is a real risk. Do you love skydiving enough to take that risk? If yes, continue your lessons - I needn't tell you at this point that listening to the safety information and performing procedures correctly is of vital importance. If you decide no, you don't want to risk it ... then don't. You do not have to do this, you do not have to continue.
Consider it your first real decision as pilot parachutist in command.
That's not just for now, that's for always. Every time before a flight, as part of a pre-flight, I have asked myself "do I want to do this today?" Most of the time the answer was yes, but sometimes it was no, even on a perfect day with a perfect airplane, and on those days I turned away and sat and watched others at play in the sky, or went home. Flying has given me some of my best memories - and some of my worst. I have buried other pilots. I have stories that would curl your hair... but I won't tell them now, because now you have one of your own to tell.
Think it over. It's unfortunate you witnessed something like that so early... or maybe not. You know the good and the bad here. Rest assured that no matter which way you decide you have my respect for having tried it at all. There is no right or wrong answer here, just what you choose to do or not do. The accident statistics they quote you are truth - but it's a hard truth when that rare event occurs in front of you. Accidents are rare, but when they happen they can happen quick and can be catastrophic.
If you feel a need to PM me about the topic please do. Or don't, if you don't feel the need. Some people find talking helpful, some don't.
Finally - if you decide not to continue call the jump school and tell them so. They will completely understand (and if they don't they're dicks). Don't know what their rules are about refunds in cases like this, but it can't hurt to ask. Regardless, don't let the money make the decision for you. If this isn't for you and they won't refund anything write the balance of your account off and walk away.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory.Leonard Nimoy.
Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.
If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy
As the old saying goes, I never understood why someone would jump out of a perfectly good airplane. But of course, I'm a very safety-oriented guy; I won't even ride a motorbike, and I'm very cautious while driving, since driving is by far the most dangerous activity I engage in. Some people want more thrills.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
Darth Wong wrote:As the old saying goes, I never understood why someone would jump out of a perfectly good airplane. But of course, I'm a very safety-oriented guy; I won't even ride a motorbike, and I'm very cautious while driving, since driving is by far the most dangerous activity I engage in. Some people want more thrills.
Which is funny cause like said above skydiving is statistically pretty safe.
I did it when I was younger and all I have to say is that you do what you feel you have to. If you can't bring yourself to try it then don't force yourself.
But as long as you do like you're supposed to you should be fine... hell you're likely in more danger driving to the field than you are doing the actual jump...
The difference is most people need to drive to actually go through life, like work and visit people, skydiving is optional fun time. It would be more like going to a track day car event that you can enter your car in. I don't get the appeal of risking your life to have fun, is it a atheist/agnostic thing? No second chances here why lose it falling out of the sky when there is still fun adrenaline stuff that can be done without death being the most likely outcome if it goes bad.
Back to the car racing example, even if you screw up or your brakes fail the most likely result of the crash isn't immediately deadly, but in skydiving if something does go wrong there isn't much that can be done, 2 chutes then you're at the mercy of gravity where as in the car there's a bunch of lesser things that can happen first before death. Guess the point is skydiving is a more black and white issue where some other fun activities don't need to reach that extreme and have a lot more grey area of potentially getting out alive if something does go wrong.
"Somehow I feel, that in the long run, Thanos of Titan came out ahead in this particular deal."
I've been through something similar. Back when I was still speaking with my family I had access to plenty of money to go off and try stuff and really wanted to be a pilot, so I got flying lessons from an excellent fellow, a guy with his twin rating, IFR, thousands of hours... He flew emergency evacuation ambulance helicopters for a living, going up in the mountains and bringing out injured people in addition to usual medical ambulance stuff (this is common around here with lots of rugged mountain terrain). I got my license and had done a relatively limited number of hours of single-engine VFR when I found out he smacked his copter into a ridgeline while trying to extricate someone from the Monte Cristo area of eastern Snohomish county. By the time I got over finding out about that to the point where I wanted to fly again, I didn't have the money anymore, and that was that.
The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. -- Wikipedia's No Original Research policy page.
Meest wrote:The difference is most people need to drive to actually go through life, like work and visit people, skydiving is optional fun time.
The problem with driving is that it's inherently dangerous, but more than that: people don't take it seriously like they should due to the amount of exposure and other people doing it. Just like people get careless with folding ladders and get themselves killed every year. This is a big deal as part of our Safety Training: don't get complacent. Training is pushed constantly because even people who know better get lazy, smell something funny, ignore it, then end up dead a few minutes later. It's the routine that kills people as much as the inherent dangers.
I don't get the appeal of risking your life to have fun, is it a atheist/agnostic thing? No second chances here why lose it falling out of the sky when there is still fun adrenaline stuff that can be done without death being the most likely outcome if it goes bad.
Like what? What's an acceptable amount of risk vs reward? I've been shooting since I was 5 years-old. Contrary to popular belief, shooting is actually a very safe recreational activity where one stupid mistake could easily get you killed. Kids routinely sign up to stand in front of another guy throwing 90MPH fastballs. I got knocked out for over a minute when a kid took a wild backswing to warm up and hit me in the head (coach called time-out, I pulled my catcher's mask and looked right). To this day I wonder A. if it actually happened (I never felt the consciousness loss) B.what were the chances that I might not have woken up.
I don't think you realize just how dangerous everyday fun really is.
Guess the point is skydiving is a more black and white issue where some other fun activities don't need to reach that extreme and have a lot more grey area of potentially getting out alive if something does go wrong.
Funny because the guy in the OP did survive. The problem is it doesn't take a whole lot to put someone down for the count. Cheerleaders get dropped on their heads every year, fishermen find ways with fast boats and alcohol to off themselves constantly, and even kids on bicycles fall a paltry few feet and never wake up. I attribute a lot of these deaths to complacency and lack of safety. Cheerleaders are getting tossed higher and higher and a spotter can't do much to catch someone falling 15 feet, even if they weight 100lbs. No one thinks fishing could be dangerous, so they just do whatever and Game Wardens can't be everywhere. Kids don't wear helmets because.... well kids. And adults and kids alike find ways (non alcohol related) to drown in droves every year in public and private swimming pools. Last I checked, skydivers have a shitload of regulations that must be adhered to or people go to jail and, go figure, they have a much lower death rate than the shit I listed.
All that said.... you have to be fucking crazy to jump out of an airplane.
I've heard of guys falling to their deaths while playing airsoft, for fuck's sake
Skydiving is deadly when something goes tits-up, but statistically it's pretty safe (IE. things only go tits-up rarely). When driving it is easier to survive if you get into an accident, but statistically it's less safe than skydiving (ie. there are actually more fatal driving accidents per capita).
It is possible to compare fatality rates between activities, you know.
JULY 20TH 1969 - The day the entire world was looking up
It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth. I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth. I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small. - NEIL ARMSTRONG, MISSION COMMANDER, APOLLO 11
Signature dedicated to the greatest achievement of mankind.
MILDLY DERANGED PHYSICIST does not mind BREAKING the SOUND BARRIER, because it is INSURED. - Simon_Jester considering the problems of hypersonic flight for Team L.A.M.E.
Darth Wong wrote:As the old saying goes, I never understood why someone would jump out of a perfectly good airplane. But of course, I'm a very safety-oriented guy; I won't even ride a motorbike, and I'm very cautious while driving, since driving is by far the most dangerous activity I engage in. Some people want more thrills.
Which is funny cause like said above skydiving is statistically pretty safe.
I did it when I was younger and all I have to say is that you do what you feel you have to. If you can't bring yourself to try it then don't force yourself.
But as long as you do like you're supposed to you should be fine... hell you're likely in more danger driving to the field than you are doing the actual jump...
Skydiving is statistically more safe because people aren't as blasé about skydiving as they are about driving. There's something about plummeting a mile that tends to make people more scrupulous about making sure their gear isn't in need of repairs. By comparison people just hop into their two ton whirring metal death trap and plow it into an embankment with the same level of caution one might treat cooking toast.
1:100,000 accident rate is bullshit, the rate is more like several per 1,000 depending on just what kind of jump you are doing, but most accidents are relatively minor, ankle injury and the like. Deaths are under 1:100,000, I'd go out on a strong limb and I suspect they manipulated what they said on that basis.
Did you enjoy the first two jumps? If you did, I'd go on with the risk. Dead is dead, no matter the details or causes, but you also only get one life to enjoy and as you age, stuff like this does become more risky from physical weakness. Also the odds are much higher for accidents on your first jump then follow up ones. Going 2,000 jumps and then being crippled, well, the odds do catch up with people but I mean, that also shows how safe it can be in the first place.
Me, personally, the idea seems cool and I may do it some day, but the risk is real and I have a family member with lasting, if non crippling, injury from parachuting, though in military service which is absurdly more dangerous then any recreational jumping because of how much extra weight (more then your own body weight) you end up jumping with.
If you are thinking about getting your money back, I'd contact the company for details now rather then several weeks from now, because if you wait they may be a lot less cooperative.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
They made a very preliminary report to the people who were in my training-camp. I'm probably going to try to continue in a week or two. The jumpmaster concluded that he was doing some of the more extreme stuff that goes into the sport. First of all, he was flying a wingsuit when it happened, it didn't cause the accident but the bogging down of arms and legs with extra material does make it a lot more difficult to react when time is short. More importantly, he was flying a new rig with a very small chute, small even in terms of pro parachute equipment, in order to gain higher velocities. He was doing so called "swooping", which is dangerous, but he was doing it by the book down to about 50 meters, the people who were close when it happened were pretty sure that he was going to land on some crates and assorted junk. In retrospect it would have been better if he had made a normal landing and simply crashed into the pile of boxes and crates. But instead he made a left turn to avoid it, probably to avoid making a fool of himself, and in doing so he lost too much altitude and hit the ground. Thanks for all the replies, it helps putting it in a perspective. There is something very disturbing about seeing it happen infront of yourself and hearing the sounds Vs. watching a youtube video of an accident.
Darth Wong wrote:As the old saying goes, I never understood why someone would jump out of a perfectly good airplane. But of course, I'm a very safety-oriented guy; I won't even ride a motorbike, and I'm very cautious while driving, since driving is by far the most dangerous activity I engage in. Some people want more thrills.
I'm no adrenaline junkie at all, but I have this feeling that I spend too much time on the internet and immersed in science fiction novels. Its nice to get out and do something, didn't you say that you would like to go into space once? But I agree, I've certainly spent a lot time now thinking about the downsides of this particular activity.
I went snowboarding/skiing with a few friends this past winter. On our last run down, a friend of a friend went down first and flipped on his snowboard, nailing an icy spot with his face. I was the next one down, and I saw him convulsing and seizing with blood all over his face, on my way down.
He had a concussion and a cut on his lip and forehead, but otherwise survived just fine.
My point is that any 'fun' activity we do has risks and consequences. Don't let fear of death prevent you from enjoying life. If you spend your existence afraid of death, you might as well be dead already.
Phantasee wrote:I went snowboarding/skiing with a few friends this past winter. On our last run down, a friend of a friend went down first and flipped on his snowboard, nailing an icy spot with his face. I was the next one down, and I saw him convulsing and seizing with blood all over his face, on my way down.
He had a concussion and a cut on his lip and forehead, but otherwise survived just fine.
My point is that any 'fun' activity we do has risks and consequences. Don't let fear of death prevent you from enjoying life. If you spend your existence afraid of death, you might as well be dead already.
That's absurdly black-and-white advice. It's all a matter of how much risk, and how much reward. You can't just give blanket advice telling people to ignore risks and not fear death. Only a fool does not fear death.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
Wingsuits, yeah those raise the stakes considerably. IIRC you aren't supposed to even try to jump with one until you have 400-500 jumps under your belt to give an idea of the required skill.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
Phantasee wrote:I went snowboarding/skiing with a few friends this past winter. On our last run down, a friend of a friend went down first and flipped on his snowboard, nailing an icy spot with his face. I was the next one down, and I saw him convulsing and seizing with blood all over his face, on my way down.
He had a concussion and a cut on his lip and forehead, but otherwise survived just fine.
My point is that any 'fun' activity we do has risks and consequences. Don't let fear of death prevent you from enjoying life. If you spend your existence afraid of death, you might as well be dead already.
That's absurdly black-and-white advice. It's all a matter of how much risk, and how much reward. You can't just give blanket advice telling people to ignore risks and not fear death. Only a fool does not fear death.
There's that fear of death that grips you right before you jump out of a plane, and there's the lesser fear of death that keeps you on the ground your whole life. I suppose it's more of a worry, to differentiate between the two.
Meh you could live a very calculated life and slip on a bananna peel tommorow. Death is not on our hands. When time comes we go so better to focus on living each day to its fullest potential for it could be the last.
I have to tell you something everything I wrote above is a lie.
Sarevok wrote:Meh you could live a very calculated life and slip on a bananna peel tommorow. Death is not on our hands. When time comes we go so better to focus on living each day to its fullest potential for it could be the last.
Do you always speak in pithy proverbs instead of meaningful English?
"living each day to its fullest"? If you wind up paralyzed, then you just condemned yourself to living decades of life where you need an assistant to wipe your ass. Does that sound like a "full life" to you?
It may be impossible to reduce risk to zero, but that doesn't mean it's pointless to manage risk at all. Death is not entirely under your control, but you can take steps to enormously alter the risk of it occurring. Simply buckling up your seatbelt and paying attention on the road can greatly influence your chances of being able to walk around 20 years from now.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
Sarevok wrote:Meh you could live a very calculated life and slip on a bananna peel tommorow. Death is not on our hands. When time comes we go so better to focus on living each day to its fullest potential for it could be the last.
This is the same stupid argument impulsive drunks use when you refuse to get shitfaced or even drink. Take a sip! Get drunk man! Have some fun! Lighten up! You only live once!
I don't get the appeal of risking your life to have fun, is it a atheist/agnostic thing?
No. It's because some forms of fun require you to put your neck out. I'm a rock climber. There's nothing like it. Everything you do comes with risks. Rock climbing just happens to have rather serious ones. You just live with those risks and manage it as best as you can.
Sarevok wrote:Meh you could live a very calculated life and slip on a bananna peel tommorow. Death is not on our hands. When time comes we go so better to focus on living each day to its fullest potential for it could be the last.
Taking care to follow safety procedures is calculating the risk, you know. People who take risks and survive are usually those who take calculated ones.
JULY 20TH 1969 - The day the entire world was looking up
It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth. I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth. I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small. - NEIL ARMSTRONG, MISSION COMMANDER, APOLLO 11
Signature dedicated to the greatest achievement of mankind.
MILDLY DERANGED PHYSICIST does not mind BREAKING the SOUND BARRIER, because it is INSURED. - Simon_Jester considering the problems of hypersonic flight for Team L.A.M.E.
Sarevok wrote:Meh you could live a very calculated life and slip on a bananna peel tommorow. Death is not on our hands. When time comes we go so better to focus on living each day to its fullest potential for it could be the last.
Taking care to follow safety procedures is calculating the risk, you know. People who take risks and survive are usually those who take calculated ones.
Pretty sure sky divers follow a lot of safety procedures including multiple backup chutes etc. Point is even with all the safety procedures when you are supposed to die you die. Alan Poindexter (NASA astronaut) died this month, 2 space shuttle flights, numerous aircraft carrier landings, combat missions in Operation Desert Storm. And he died in jet ski accident.
I have to tell you something everything I wrote above is a lie.
Sarevok wrote:Pretty sure sky divers follow a lot of safety procedures including multiple backup chutes etc. Point is even with all the safety procedures when you are supposed to die you die.
I don't even know what the bolded part is supposed to mean. Is it supposed to mean something?
Sarevok wrote:Alan Poindexter (NASA astronaut) died this month, 2 space shuttle flights, numerous aircraft carrier landings, combat missions in Operation Desert Storm. And he died in jet ski accident.
Wow, that almost sounds like he might not have done a great risk/reward analysis of a leisure activity requiring good reflexes/judgment to avoid injury. It's almost like that supports a position other than the one you are advancing.
I don't even know what the bolded part is supposed to mean. Is it supposed to mean something?
Death is outside your control ? You may adopt an extremely safe lifestyle but end up the unlucky one who failed the DC test when rolling for "will i die tommorow ?"
I have to tell you something everything I wrote above is a lie.
