Bringing Equality to Romans (RAR!)

[Zor]

(Yes, somewhat inspired by tLoK)

In this scenario, its 50CE when a new factor is put into the Roman Empire and seek to redefine it's nature and is considerably ahead of it's time, as are the tools they use to make this. they are called the Equalists.

As the name suggests the Equalists believe very deeply in the ideals of social, gender and political equality. Slavery, different categories of citizenship based on property and ancestry and male supremacy are abominations that must be purged from existence. Their objectives are to assume control of the Roman Empire and dismantle slavery completely and utterly, dismantle the Roman class system as well as achieving equality for roman women. They genuinely and full heatedly believe in this cause, but they also are willing to put themselves in charge during a period of transition and don't tolerate Anti Egalitarianism. There are some 10,000 Equalists with an equal male/female split and divided into two categories, Emancipators and Sustainers in roughly equal numbers. Both are fully literate and can speak Latin just fine.

Emancipators are Equalist soldiers. Your standard Emancipator is dressed in a union civil war uniform with a blue painted M1 Helmet and is armed with a Springfield-1866 Rifle, mills bombs, a revolver chambered for 9mm parabellum ammunition, a bayonet and a truncheon for showing slave traders and owners who is the boss and beating the wife beating out of wife beaters. One in a hundred is a shredder who exchanges the Springfield rifle for a Błyskawica submachine gun. To give them an edge in scouting one in ten of them has a spyglass. They also have twelve SCR-300 radios (although they can't replace these).

Sustainers operate out a few bases in the surrounding countryside about 30 kilometers from Rome. They fulfill non combat roles, including making weapons, ammunition and clothes for Emancipators, as well as printing propaganda posters and books, making paper and ink, maintaining manufacturing equipment, keeping records of supplies and raw materials, procuring coal, iron and other such raw materials necessary, going through paperwork and education to train up a new Egalitarian generation and doing other such jobs. Each one has a Revolver for defense. Their buildings are fortified against assault. They have the gear to make 300 new rifles, 300 new pistols and 50 sub machine guns per month, as well as being able to make 1,000,000 rounds of ammunition and 5,000 grenades per month. They have 6 months of raw materials and the output of 6 months of ammunition production stockpiled

Can the Equalists succeed in their plans?

Zor
Edit-increased the ammunition output

[Esquire]

No.

While it is true that a direct assault on Equalist positions would be at the very least bloody and probably suicidal for Roman legions, there's absolutely no need for one. The legions can simply dig in around their camps and wait; without artillery there's nothing the Equalists can do to dug-in troops and the legions will be quite capable of denying food and raw materials to the Equalists until they starve or surrender.

It's possible that the Equalists might try and punch their way through the Roman lines, but legionaries should actually have an advantage in trench-fighting, where their weapons won't be hopelessly outranged. In any case, the entire Equalist army is numerically equivalent to a single legion, and you can be damn sure that Rome will send a great deal more than a single legion to deal with something so dangerous and so close to home. Swamping the Equalists in bodies ought to work for keeping them contained.

[Thanas]

There are no legions near Rome. Pulling back troops from the frontier takes at least a month. Without them, the only thing Rome has is the Praetorian Guard, the equites singulares (German mounted bodyguards) and the urban cohorts. The latter are not really combat soldiers and the former two only slightly outnumber the number of new guys.

Rome has no fortification to speak of in these days. The easiest was to succeed here is to march on Rome immediately. I don't see them being stopped assuming they even know some sort of standard drill and tactics. Taking Rome will involve a lot of bloodshed, though. As would trying to go up against the rest of the Roman Army. Unless they manage to kill off the emperor, there will be a huge war which they would lose due to being unable to gain any allies.

[Simon_Jester]

Why does he have a blackpowder rifle and hand grenades that were filled with high explosives?

[Steve]

Why does he have a blackpowder rifle and hand grenades that were filled with high explosives?

It's a Zorian RAR. These things happen.

[Zor]

Unless they manage to kill off the emperor, there will be a huge war which they would lose due to being unable to gain any allies.

Large numbers of freed slaves?

Zor

[Rabid]

To be honest, I don't know if freed slaves would side with the Egalitarians.

I mean, I have almost no knowledge on the question, but I was under the impression that the standard of living of Roman slaves, at least in central Italy and relative to the average plebeian, wasn't that bad ; and that most of them would have preferred continued servitude with a chance of them or their child earning their freedom someday than to risk getting crucified for their rebellion.

Am I wrong ?

[Thanas]

No, not really.

[Thanas]

Unless they manage to kill off the emperor, there will be a huge war which they would lose due to being unable to gain any allies.

Large numbers of freed slaves?

This is after Spartacus. No dice.

[Beowulf]

Why does he have a blackpowder rifle and hand grenades that were filled with high explosives?

It's a Zorian RAR. These things happen.

Don't forget a revolver chambered for ammunition intended for an automatic weapon, which is a smokeless powder round as well.

[madd0ct0r]

so they fight through to the palace and take the emperor hostage.

even if legions are recalled, city fighting favors the small ranged forces.

just keep churning out the propoganda and try and keep rome in one piece. after a few months...

[Sir Sirius]

Let me get this straight. You have a 5 000 Emancipators (or roughly one brigade) with an ammunition allotment of just 300 000 rounds a month?

That would amount to 60 rounds per man per month or about 2 rounds per day per man. Yeah, two rounds a day. Even with just the single shot breech loading Springfields a soldier could expend his weekly ammunition allotment in little more then a minute, to say nothing of the revolvers let alone the sub-machine guns.

[PeZook]

I have to pose an important question: if they take rome...what's next?

Can they enforce their will across the Empire? Will the local administration even follow their orders? If they can hold the city, which is by no means guaranteed, won't the likely result be a fracturing of the Empire/establishment of a new capital someplace else? Their ideology is pretty radical, after all.

Maybe a better route than military conquest would be to strike a deal with an ambitious local who'd actually be able to seize control of the administration. But who would that be, and what guarantees could he posibly give that he'd follow through with that radical plan, instead of just seizing power for himself?

[Thanas]

so they fight through to the palace and take the emperor hostage.

And what happens then when the Governor of Germania or Syria decides not to care much about that and declares himself emperor?

I have to pose an important question: if they take rome...what's next?

Can they enforce their will across the Empire?

No.

Will the local administration even follow their orders?

Which local administration? If they take the palace, the local administration is either dead or captured. As for provincial administration, no chance.

If they can hold the city, which is by no means guaranteed, won't the likely result be a fracturing of the Empire/establishment of a new capital someplace else? Their ideology is pretty radical, after all.

Sure. I bet there will be about five or six 50k+ armies arriving in italy within the next year trying to make their leader Emperor. Heck, just look at what happened after the death of Nero.

Maybe a better route than military conquest would be to strike a deal with an ambitious local who'd actually be able to seize control of the administration. But who would that be, and what guarantees could he posibly give that he'd follow through with that radical plan, instead of just seizing power for himself?

To be honest, the very idea of that plan would make it unacceptable to the nobility or the provinces. If you find somebody like that he'd just be a puppet with no authority except for the guns behind them. Cue six 50k armies showing up in Italy. They could destroy one or two, sure, but they'll take inevitable losses they cannot really replace.


Even more importantly - what feeds them, if not slaves?

[Rabid]

Even more importantly - what feeds them, if not slaves?

The same people, doing the same work, but not being nominally slaves ?

[Thanas]

Even more importantly - what feeds them, if not slaves?

The same people, doing the same work, but not being nominally slaves ?

I don't think that is what the OP had in mind.

[madd0ct0r]

Zor - what are the rules re recruiting and expanding gun manufacture?

take rome, let roman empire disintegrate into provinces, and try and raise a big enough army of freed slaves to take on the incoming legions.

(recruiting slaves to the troops could be the mechanism for freeing them, and i'd assume with split provinces a few of the legions would be more bothered about carving out their own little empires)

[Thanas]

Zor - what are the rules re recruiting and expanding gun manufacture?

take rome, let roman empire disintegrate into provinces, and try and raise a big enough army of freed slaves to take on the incoming legions.

Emperors tried that against usurpers. It failed as the untrained slaves were hacked to pieces. Besides, you are not going to get that many of them to join up and training them....eh.

i'd assume with split provinces a few of the legions would be more bothered about carving out their own little empires)

History disagrees with you on that one. The empre fragmented only two times in the course of its entire existence.

[madd0ct0r]

ok. so brute force is out -

plan D: Emancipators act as an elite mercenary force, fiercely against slavery and using the proceeds of their employment to slowly bribe and twist the politicians to their demands.

[Zor]

Zor - what are the rules re recruiting and expanding gun manufacture?

If they work on it, they might be able to set up enough double monthly production of ammunition in about a year.

Zor

[PeZook]

I have to pose an important question: if they take rome...what's next?

Can they enforce their will across the Empire?

No.

Figured as much. After all, they can't be everywhere at once, and their ideology makes it extremely hard to find even partially willing allies.

Which local administration? If they take the palace, the local administration is either dead or captured. As for provincial administration, no chance.

Yes, I meant the provincional administrations. I thought this might be a problem, because...well, it's just common sense.

To be honest, the very idea of that plan would make it unacceptable to the nobility or the provinces. If you find somebody like that he'd just be a puppet with no authority except for the guns behind them. Cue six 50k armies showing up in Italy. They could destroy one or two, sure, but they'll take inevitable losses they cannot really replace.

Well, actually, a stand-up field battle is basically the best thing the Romans could give the emancipators, because with 1866 Springfields against an enemy not armed with any sort of firearms whatsoever, the firing line is basically invincible, as long as it has ammo and some cavalry to screen flanks (easily enough raised and armed). If they can stockpile ammo for a year before having to fight a pitched battle, they should be able to destroy those six armies.

Replacing losses is also possible: they can make their own weapons, and recruit locals to use them. Training up a freed slave to be competent with a rifle and able to follow orders isn't that difficult - he should be reasonably competent with a rifle after a couple of weeks. You don't need people who are particulary crack shots, after all, at least not before the Romans adapt their tactics.

However, the two big problems with a military solution is A) Logistics. Supplies CAN be cut off by Romans pretty easily - the romans have so much more troops they can just control all sources, and force the fortress-dwellers to fight for every scrap of food. While an Egalitarian raiding party should be able to pull it off, they WILL take casualties (if not from getting stabbed in the face, then via bows, accidents, disease), expend their limited ammunition etc.

There's also spies, assassination (say, the ever popular "invite leaders for negotiations and then murder them all" trick...), sabotage...

Firearms and ammunition will also inevitably tricke into Roman hands over time, which will increase attrition further.

And then there's the killer point B - politics. In order to end slavery in Rome, you have to CONTROL the Empire, not just fuck it up. At best, even if you can defeat every army Rome throws at you (and they can throw a lot), a military solution means you will have to build an entirely new Empire from the ashes, gradually conquering Italy with local troops. Just changing the social mores will mean two or three generations of education at the least - it could take decades, possibly centuries, to reform the lands of the Empire and they'd look nothing like the the original when/if it's finally done.

[Akhlut]

Realistically, the Equalists are going to have to think very long term about this.

So, to that end, they must abandon the Roman Empire, at least for a long while. They'd probably see better results by moving up to Denmark and ingratiating themselves among the Germanic tribes. Or, at least, killing the nobility and "nationalizing" the property for communal use by the serfs and doing that in a round-robin fashion among the Germanic tribes.

Perhaps by setting up a state like this among the Germanic tribes and educating them and propagating this sort of society would result in a state strong enough to take on the Empire and then effect change on the Empire via a long, slow process of annexing bits of territory until the whole Empire is controlled.

That's still not exactly likely to work, but it at least has a chance of success that isn't there for simply assaulting the Empire.

EDIT: Also, Zor, I know you're into the post-spelling movement and all, but can you please at least initially refer to a work by its entire name in a post and then start using the acronym for it? It took me about 3-4 minutes to figure out you were talking about the Legend of Korra. It takes an additional 4-5 seconds for someone who types really slow to get that out the first time, mang.

[Thanas]

Figured as much. After all, they can't be everywhere at once, and their ideology makes it extremely hard to find even partially willing allies.

It is worthy to note that during most slave rebellions in history (even Spartacus) the slaves had no problem with the institution of slavery, but rather of them being the slaves. The same is true for example the slave revolt of St. John - the goal there was not to stop slavery, but rather make the Romans/Danes the slaves.

Well, actually, a stand-up field battle is basically the best thing the Romans could give the emancipators, because with 1866 Springfields against an enemy not armed with any sort of firearms whatsoever, the firing line is basically invincible, as long as it has ammo

I don't doubt that close combat will not really work. However, guerilla warfare, skirmishing (especially with mounted archers or archers like those syrians or Parthians) will take their toll. The Romans are not stupid - they will adapt easily. The Equalizers have too few troops to even take and hold the cities of italy. For example, the city of Aquila, garrisoned by a few veterans and the armed citizenry managed to resist the entire Roman field army (and win, to boot). Supplies are even more of a problem. If they cannot feed Rome (with what grain fleet?) the populace will be starving and revolting. Even 5000 guys cannot hold back a mob a million strong - at least not without massacring them. Guess what is a PR killer?

and some cavalry to screen flanks (easily enough raised and armed).

No. Cavalry was extremely costly to raise. For example, there were only a few areas of warhorse supplies, namely Dalmatia, Spain, Sicily and Cappadocia. Guess who owns those areas? In this scenario, the few racehorses alive in Rome (assuming the starving mob does not eat them) would not be enough and might not even be suitable to even equip a few hundred cavalrymen.

If they can stockpile ammo for a year before having to fight a pitched battle, they should be able to destroy those six armies.

Too bad it historically only took a few weeks of marching to get to Rome. And that is assuming they actually manage to kill the Emperor in the first place, which is not even likely considering the secret getaway methods of the Palace as well as the fact that one cannot contain the fleeing populace of Rome anyway (due to Rome lacking any walls) and 5000 men are not enough to mount an effective siegeline on the entire area of Rome anyway.

Replacing losses is also possible: they can make their own weapons, and recruit locals to use them. Training up a freed slave to be competent with a rifle and able to follow orders isn't that difficult - he should be reasonably competent with a rifle after a couple of weeks. You don't need people who are particulary crack shots, after all, at least not before the Romans adapt their tactics.

How do you answer hails of arrows and ballista shot from ~200-300 meters away? Yeah, a Springfield beats both but I doubt the slave will hit a lot considering these will be dispersed skirmishers and the springfielders got no artillery support.

However, the two big problems with a military solution is A) Logistics. Supplies CAN be cut off by Romans pretty easily - the romans have so much more troops they can just control all sources, and force the fortress-dwellers to fight for every scrap of food. While an Egalitarian raiding party should be able to pull it off, they WILL take casualties (if not from getting stabbed in the face, then via bows, accidents, disease), expend their limited ammunition etc.

There's also spies, assassination (say, the ever popular "invite leaders for negotiations and then murder them all" trick...), sabotage...

Firearms and ammunition will also inevitably tricke into Roman hands over time, which will increase attrition further.

And then there's the killer point B - politics. In order to end slavery in Rome, you have to CONTROL the Empire, not just fuck it up. At best, even if you can defeat every army Rome throws at you (and they can throw a lot), a military solution means you will have to build an entirely new Empire from the ashes, gradually conquering Italy with local troops. Just changing the social mores will mean two or three generations of education at the least - it could take decades, possibly centuries, to reform the lands of the Empire and they'd look nothing like the the original when/if it's finally done.

ITA here.

[Thanas]

Realistically, the Equalists are going to have to think very long term about this.

So, to that end, they must abandon the Roman Empire, at least for a long while. They'd probably see better results by moving up to Denmark and ingratiating themselves among the Germanic tribes. Or, at least, killing the nobility and "nationalizing" the property for communal use by the serfs and doing that in a round-robin fashion among the Germanic tribes.

Perhaps by setting up a state like this among the Germanic tribes and educating them and propagating this sort of society would result in a state strong enough to take on the Empire and then effect change on the Empire via a long, slow process of annexing bits of territory until the whole Empire is controlled.

That's still not exactly likely to work, but it at least has a chance of success that isn't there for simply assaulting the Empire.

I doubt that, for one simple reason - Germania in this time is not an area which is very great for long-range gunfire. It is filled with swamps, forests so thick that one can hardly see 15 meters ahead and populated by skilled warriors who made an art out of guerilla warfare.

[Akhlut]

I doubt that, for one simple reason - Germania in this time is not an area which is very great for long-range gunfire. It is filled with swamps, forests so thick that one can hardly see 15 meters ahead and populated by skilled warriors who made an art out of guerilla warfare.

Well, fine then.

However, since the OP doesn't specify where we start, why don't we move the Equalists to the vast steppes of Hungary and eastern Europe and build up a base of support among the horsemen who live there? That also has the benefits of adding cavalry from the subdued people which can then be used against the Germans after raising a large enough army, and then converting the Germans to Equalism, and then using this large force against the Empire. This, of course, will take centuries to first conquer the steppes, convert their populations, then doing the same to Germany and eventually Rome. Hopefully, in the intervening timer period between starting off and being strong enough to take on Rome, Equalism won't just become some bastardized Juche ideal with the Dear Leader leading a crusade against everyone else.

And, of course, this could still end in disaster, but keeping guns and horses on the plains of eastern Europe will at least keep the Romans from counter-invading too badly.

Also, it allows for time to do intelligent things, like build some fucking cannons. If one can build guns and ammo, simple cannons are a possibility, which will improve the Equalists chances of actually managing something other than slaughtering some Romans and then being slaughtered in turn.