All Star Games/Exhibition Games Discussion [All Sports]

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All Star Games/Exhibition Games Discussion [All Sports]

Post by Darth Fanboy »

So I wanted to pose this question to the sports fans of the board, and not just the NFL fans, but this topic is prompted by a recent interview done by the NFL comissioner where he voiced his displeasure with the Pro Bowl.

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The quality of play in this season's Pro Bowl has drawn criticism from fans, former players and at least one player who played in the game. On Sunday, commissioner Roger Goodell said you can add his name to the list of detractors.

In an appearance on ESPN Radio's "Mike and Mike in the Morning" on Sunday, Goodell said the league must address the quality of the game and even said he would consider eliminating the all-star game if it can't be improved upon.

"I really didn't think that was the kind of football that we want to be demonstrating for our fans," Goodell said. "And you heard it from the fans. The fans were actively booing in the stands. They didn't like what they were seeing."

Goodell said something has to change.

"We're either going to have to improve the quality of what we're doing in the Pro Bowl or consider other changes or even considering eliminating the game if that's the kind of quality game we're going to provide," Goodell said.

Goodell said he talked to NFL Players Association executive director DeMaurice Smith about changes they need to make for the game.

"I know players love to be in Hawaii but we have to start with the quality of what we're doing," Goodell said. "If the fans are responding negatively to what we're doing, we better listen. And that was my message."

NFLPA spokesman George Atallah said Sunday via his Twitter account that the players don't want to lose the Pro Bowl from the annual schedule.

"The Pro Bowl is an important tradition; one that we as players want to keep," he wrote.

Green Bay Packers quarterback Aaron Rodgers, who was named the NFL's MVP on Saturday, said this week that some of his NFC teammates "embarrassed themselves" with the effort they gave in the game.

"I was just surprised that some of the guys either didn't want to play or when they were in there didn't put any effort into it," Rodgers said.

The AFC routed the NFC 59-41 in a game that drew boos at Aloha Stadium in Honolulu for its lack of early intensity. Rodgers, who started and played the first quarter for the NFC, didn't name specific players.

New England Patriots guard Logan Mankins, a four-time Pro Bowl selection who didn't play in the this year's game because his team is playing in the Super Bowl, said Wednesday that he doubts there's a realistic way to ramp up competitiveness.

"I don't know how you fix it," Mankins said. "You're going to give a little effort, but you're not going to get out of control. Some guys are free agents over there. You get hurt in a Pro Bowl and it's going to affect that contract with another team. Who would want to get hurt in a Pro Bowl and not be able to play the next season?"
I have never sat down and watched a Pro Bowl unless it was already on the television, I haven''t watched an NBA or NHL all star game in many years. I like the MLB All Star game but I don't like that it "means something" with home field advantage going to the league that wins and actually have attended the last two (affordable tickets and driving distance to both stadiums for me).

I find the competition of sports interesting enough I can certainly see the appeal of these games, but as a fan of a team I recognize the dangers that these exhibitions pose. As a fan of the Anaheim Ducks last year, it was very difficult to see our All Star & Olympic goaltender Jonas Hiller take a puck to the head and suffer vertigo symptoms that lingered until this season (and perhaps still do). The NFL being another hard hitting sport is certainly a risk to players that are looking to keep their playing careers going as long as possible. Pete Rose separating Ray Fosse's shoulder in the 1970 MLB All Star Game is well remembered to this day as well (though it wasn't as career killing as some make it out to be).

The quality of these games tends not to be reflective of actual competitions either, as defense takes a backseat and the effort is decidedly not as present. NHL games average 5-6 goals per game, all star games usually feature at least twice as much, with double digit scores not unheard of. NBA all star games have teams routinely surpass 130-140 points (a good average for a team is about 100). NFL Pro Bowls are far above normal scoring for a game. BEcause of the numerous pitching changes and other factors MLB games do not seem to suffer from this as often

Also highlighting All Star Game issues are players not wanting to play. Alex Ovechkin backed out of this year's NHL All Star game despite being one of the two most recognized names in hockey (whether you think it was for legitimate reasons or because he was throwing a hissy fit about his suspension is another discussion) and previously Pavel Datsyuk and Nicklas Lidstrom, also big names in the sport and teammates for Detroit, were actually suspended for skipping the game. The MLB All Star game is not nearly as strict as to players backing out of the game but does have players back out.

Then there is the issue of fan voting, which will sometimes mean that undeserving players will make it in as a popularity contest more than an acheivement based on performance. I do not disagree with this because the games are the sporting version of fanservice, and why not let them have a say in deciding the roster? It makes the game more relevant to people who otherwise have no stake in it. Although fans of the Vancouver Canucks and the "Vote for Rory" campaign took this to the extreme when trying to get a second rate yet popular defenseman (Rory Fitzpatrick) into the All Star game despite statistically being unexceptional and not being well known outside of Vancouver.

By comparison, the leagues, tv networks and the host venues are the biggest beneficiaries of these games but the benefit to players outside of perhaps performance bonuses are not that great by comparison (correct me if i'm wrong of course). I'm not certain that it's worth a small payday for players to participate in these games in the more hard hitting sports (any sport but especially NFL and NHL), or that it is worth the missed chance to rest for midseason exhibitions (MLB, NHL, NBA).

So I pose the following questions to other sports fans on this board, This question can be extended to exhibition match games in other countries, such as the ones played by NRL in Australia, or "friendlies" played by national soccer teams.:

-Do you watch All Star games or similar exhibition games?

-Do you think it's worth the risk to players to participate in these games?

-Is the benefit to the sport (increased exposure, opportunity to promote star players, generate fan interest etc...) worth it more than the risk to popular players, or the potential negative attention from a poorly played game?
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Re: All Star Games/Exhibition Games Discussion [All Sports]

Post by Tsyroc »

The only All-Star games that sort of make sense and that I might watch if I come across them are those with college players getting one last chance to show the pros something after the college season is over. Even then those games aren't very good either.

Other than that I don't care for All-Star games and really don't blame players of contact sports for not wanting to play in them or at least not put out that much effort. IIRC, there was a rookie NFL player a few years ago who wrecked his knee in the all rookie flag football game at the Pro Bowl. He was out the entire next season.

I also would to like know how much Aaron Rogers would like it if the defensive players were really allowed to come after him full tilt and the Pro Bowl rules weren't slanted to favor the offense even more than the regular rules. If I were a defensive player I might be motivated enough by another chance to knock the QBs block off?

I've never watched the NHL All-Star game. The only NBA All-Star game I remember watching was the one where Magic Johnson was voted in and allowed to play in after leaving early in the season because of his AIDS diagnosis. That was also around the time of my peak NBA interest which has never been very high and is essentially non-existent now.

The only time I remember anyone caring about the MLB All-Star game was back when I was 9 or 10 years old and playing Little League. I think the game is essentially a waste. Making it so the winning league gets home filed during the World Series made it a teeny bit more interesting but it's still a crap game during a time when the players could use the rest more than another meaningless game. I also think the voting for who gets in this game is one of the worst out of the various all-star games.
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Re: All Star Games/Exhibition Games Discussion [All Sports]

Post by Darth Fanboy »

Robert Edwards, the guy nearly lost his leg to that! I had forgotten about that completely.
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Re: All Star Games/Exhibition Games Discussion [All Sports]

Post by aerius »

The only all star game I've ever watched is hockey, and to be honest I like the skills competition a lot more than the game itself. If I miss the game I'm not going to be upset, but if I miss the skills comp I am not a happy person. The game is pretty laughable, it's pretty much a game of shinny at half speed, you're not going to see Scott Stevens flattening people or one of the forwards crashing the net. It's pretty much just a bunch of fancy passes and shots that you see only in shinny and pond hockey, I might as well just watch the pond hockey championships we have here every year.
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Re: All Star Games/Exhibition Games Discussion [All Sports]

Post by Havok »

I hate the NFL Pro Bowl. Just do away with the game completely. If the league (NFL and NFLPA) is concerned about player safety like they say they are, then they shouldn't be having these guys suit up for extra practices or games, especially when they truly mean nothing. Not how people think pre-season is meaningless when it absolutely is not.

My advice and suggestion to the NFL is this; Elect your Pro Bowl squads. Starters and alternates. Then instead of having them play a meaningless game where half the starters don't participate because of "injury" and where the crowd has now begun to BOO their lack of effort, you take the AFC and NFC rosters on a two or three week tour of the country to say six or eight selected sites and let the fans actually meet them and talk with them. Make a big event in different cities every year for fans that would otherwise NEVER get to Hawaii of even Miami for a Pro Bowl. Do the skills competitions, 40 yard dash races, some flag football events with fans, old timers flag football, etc..

Also, do it after the Superbowl so that you get all the players that are voted in, and for gawds sake, let voting go to the end of the fucking season AT LEAST. It should, in my opinion, go up to Championship weekend so that you get to see all the playoff teams play at least one game. The big problem with this, is that football fans are stupid and will forget the regular season by then and the Pro Bowl rosters will be stacked with only players in the playoffs.

Of course that leads to my final suggestion on the Pro Bowl and that is that there should be some restrictions on the way and which fans are allowed to vote. I'm tempted to say that only fans that buy tickets to a game can vote, but that isn't entirely fair and would keep me out of the voting as I can't stand going to live pro games. Perhaps the NFL could figure out the average amount of votes each year since they let fans start voting, or say the last 10 years, then split the average 32 ways and give that number to each team as an allotment of their fans that can be on one of the 32 the Pro Bowl voting panels. Fans then would submit applications to be on the panel each year and could be judged on football knowledge and the like for admittance. Perhaps then you wouldn't get people that absolutely should not be in the Pro Bowl every year and you wouldn't see as many snubs of very deserving players.

The only other All Star game I watch is MLB, and that is only if I am even paying attention to when it is on and happen to be near a TV when that happens. Even then, if I miss the Home Run Derby the day before. I completely lose interest in the game itself. It's fucking moronic to have the winner of the game get homefield in the World Series by the way. Didn't that bite the Rangers in the ass this year?

Basketball seems like it's just a slam dunk contest and all star game all the time based on the games I ever see talked about... you know, Lakers, Heat, Cetics, Heat, Lakers, Celtics, Heat. I've never seen a NBA All Star game though, but I hear they are miles better than the NFL game and maybe on par with MLB. It's much easier to play basketball half assed and still be entertaining though.
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Re: All Star Games/Exhibition Games Discussion [All Sports]

Post by Jim Raynor »

Basketball is a sport that's well-suited to All-Star games, since it allows for both individual showmanship as well as team play. Also, playing seriously or semi-seriously in basketball doesn't usually result in players getting physically messed up.

Football on the other hand...why did they move the Pro Bowl before the Super Bowl again? The game's so meaningless anyway, but to take out the big stars from the championship game on top of that?
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Re: All Star Games/Exhibition Games Discussion [All Sports]

Post by aerius »

All star games and contact sports just don't go together, especially when there's absolutely nothing on the line. It's one thing for Canada to put together an all star hockey team to win the Olympics, there's actually a gold medal up for grabs there, but for the NHL game it doesn't make sense at all. At least with football the game's at the end of the season so if anyone gets hurt they have half a year to recover, but in hockey it's in the middle of the season so if a player goes down their team is fucked.

As much as I dislike watching a no contact half speed hockey game, I can't blame the players for putting their health first in an absolutely meaningless game. I think they should just officially make it a 4 on 4 shinny game so the players can go close to full speed without getting hurt and still show off their skills.
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Re: All Star Games/Exhibition Games Discussion [All Sports]

Post by Darth Fanboy »

Havok wrote:It's fucking moronic to have the winner of the game get homefield in the World Series by the way. Didn't that bite the Rangers in the ass this year?
Two years in a row, although it meant more this time.
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Re: All Star Games/Exhibition Games Discussion [All Sports]

Post by HeadCreeps »

I keep wanting to say the NFL Pro Bowl should happen as the opening game of the following season. It would at least garner more interest as a Hall of Fame game than the actual one they hold every year. It matches the theme as well; only the best players should be allowed to play in the game where some of the greatest players in the history of the game are being inducted into the Hall of Fame.

Then, even if the players don't actually take it seriously, the Pro Bowl becomes an attraction at least in the sense that football-starved fans get to be excited about the first game of the preseason. There isn't a real way I'm aware of to make the Pro Bowl into a serious game anymore since protecting your players from injury is so important, so I think making it even more of a ceremonial game is a better solution. The greatest players from the last season kicking off the next.

(let's ignore the flaws in the system where we decide who gets in, that's a different story)
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Re: All Star Games/Exhibition Games Discussion [All Sports]

Post by Darth Fanboy »

I doubt the owners or players would go for it given that a catastrophic injury then would be even more of a detriment, and the time practicing for the pro bowl is time teams will want their players in their training camps.

That being said I love that idea and it would be, as you said, a more interesting start to the season than the HoF game.
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Re: All Star Games/Exhibition Games Discussion [All Sports]

Post by Darth Fanboy »

Jim Raynor wrote:Basketball is a sport that's well-suited to All-Star games, since it allows for both individual showmanship as well as team play. Also, playing seriously or semi-seriously in basketball doesn't usually result in players getting physically messed up.

Football on the other hand...why did they move the Pro Bowl before the Super Bowl again? The game's so meaningless anyway, but to take out the big stars from the championship game on top of that?
I think the idea was to give the NFL fan something to tide them over during that weekend where there are no games played and to see if by doing that there might be a lead in based off the upcoming Super Bowl hype rather than fans not caring since the Super Bowl is supposed to be the big culminating end to the season. But like you said, the top two teams in the league do not contribute players which means that 2 of 32 fanbases don't give a crap about the game.
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Re: All Star Games/Exhibition Games Discussion [All Sports]

Post by Alferd Packer »

I wish the Pro Bowl wasn't a joke, but it is. Football is really dangerous, and no one wants to put their health on the line for a meaningless game. I just don't know how you give it meaning. Maybe a huge cash payout to each member of the winning team? And no cash payout for the losing team? After all, money talks.
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Re: All Star Games/Exhibition Games Discussion [All Sports]

Post by Darth Fanboy »

There is a cash payout to the winners greater than that of the payout for the losers, and supposedly guys will start playing harder in the 4th quarter depending on whether or not they can make a few thousand extra bucks. Chump change for most of these guys.
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Re: All Star Games/Exhibition Games Discussion [All Sports]

Post by RedImperator »

Making the MLB ASG determine home field advantage might be the dumbest of Bud Selig's dumb ideas. Let's take a game where

1) the very best players may not be interested in playing
2 where something like half the "starting" pitchers can be disqualified because their last start was too recent
3) where you lift the starters you do have after every inning no matter how well they're pitching
4) the managers of the previous years' World Series teams get to pick players, even if they're huge fucking stupid idiots (remember a few years ago when Ozzie Guillen picked a bunch of White Sox having mediocre years to fill out the roster?)
5) the fan voting system practically begs for the teams to be stuffed with famous guys and players on popular teams regardless of how good they actually are at playing baseball (I love Shane Victorino, but the Phillies openly encouraged Phillies fans to stuff the ballot box on the Internet voting, which says all you need to know about All Star voting)

And then on top of that, you're using one game to determine WS home field, in a sport where the very best team that ever played (by winning percentage) still lost three dozen games in one year. Totally fair and not at all arbitrary!

The biggest problem for the ASG is that its main attraction is gone. Before Interleague, the only time great players in opposite leagues would play each other was during spring training and the World Series. Now it's not nearly as big a deal, especially since MLB tries to schedule popular teams with good players against each other in Interleague anyway.

The Home Run Derby, I think, exists only to prove that ESPN can ruin anything.

Really my favorite part of the MLB All-Star festivities is the "stars of the future" game or whatever they call it, where the minor league players play each other (I think it's limited to guys who haven't had a MLB callup).

All that said, the MLB All-Star game is approximately thirty million times less awful than the Pro Bowl. At least they actually play baseball in the All-Star game (hurr hurr that's exactly what's wrong with it hurr hurr). The Pro Bowl looks more like a walkthrough than an actual football game.
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Re: All Star Games/Exhibition Games Discussion [All Sports]

Post by Darth Quorthon »

The pro bowl is a neutered form of Football where teams aren't allowed to blitz, rush the kicker, press cover receivers past 5 yards, etc etc. Yes, I know it's an exhibition game, and you don't want anyone getting hurt. Just about everyone I've talked to, however, gripes that you aren't allowed to hit anyone during the Pro Bowl. And let's face it, I'm sure I'm not the only one who appreciates a nice bone-crunching hit once in awhile. I'm not wishing an injury on anyone, but it's football; it's a violent sport. Add to that the fact that it takes place within one week of the Super Bowl, which is what everyone is really looking forward to, and there you go. I can't imagine too many people would be broken hearted if Goodell actually pulled the plug on it as he hinted. I know that some players who missed the super bowl may very well enjoy the pro bowl and it's their last chance to get out there and play, but hell, there's a still a chance they could sustain a non-contact injury.

Other sports, by contrast, have their all star games in the middle of the season, have an all-star break, and have those other events to go along with it , like the slam dunk contest or the home run derby. Heck, in the NBA it isn't the all star game, it's the all-star weekend. You can't exactly have the Pro Bowl in the middle of the season, what are you going to do, give the players the week off before, or after? Or both? To say nothing of if a star player sustains a major injury during the game. Another factor I think may be the fact that other sports have their best-of-five and best-of-seven playoff series, so they don't generate that "one big game" effect that the Super Bowl does, so it's easier to key in on the all-star game.
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Re: All Star Games/Exhibition Games Discussion [All Sports]

Post by Alferd Packer »

Maybe then they should bump the payout. Make it, say, 20 million dollars, to be split evenly amongst the winning team. Losers get nothing, or worse, a pittance. Remove the restrictions on the defense, and you might actually see a football game.
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Re: All Star Games/Exhibition Games Discussion [All Sports]

Post by Darth Fanboy »

Here are the pro bowl rosters listed, with notations next to players who did not participate due to injury or due to Super Bowl participation, and noting who the replacements are.

$20 million split over an entire roster isn't going to be that much, especially for some of these guys who are already making big money per game. Tom Brady makes about $1 million per regular season GAME. Now you're talking about dividing the pro bowl winnings almost 50 ways, so about $400k, and that isn't even addressing what to do for players who can't participate for reasons pertaining to the Super Bowl or injuries. The average NFL contract is significantly lower, but many of the guys selected for the pro bowl are already making this kind of cash. Then there is the issue of fans not being nearly as interested in NFL exhibition games as they are games with any sort of meaning.

Maybe tie the Pro Bowl into fantasy football somehow? That seems to be a good way to get the NFL die-hards on board.
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Re: All Star Games/Exhibition Games Discussion [All Sports]

Post by thejester »

Paying them more also assumes that the underlying justification for all-star/exhibition games is correct (well beyond the 'let's make money from advertising revenue' which I suppose is the ultimate justification) - that putting the best players in the league together is going to result in an entertaining product. Not sure taking a bunch of players and assuming their innate skill will trump lack of teamwork, motivation etc to provide an interesting spectacle is every really going to hold up.
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Re: All Star Games/Exhibition Games Discussion [All Sports]

Post by Darth Fanboy »

thejester wrote:Not sure taking a bunch of players and assuming their innate skill will trump lack of teamwork, motivation etc to provide an interesting spectacle is every really going to hold up.
It works with basketball and baseball, not so much with more physical sports. Basketball the game turns into an offensive showcase and a lot of NBA fans like watching that, baseball by nature of the sport doesn't have as many problems since its a team effort but not a lot of coordination between players required as in other sports.
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Re: All Star Games/Exhibition Games Discussion [All Sports]

Post by Darth Fanboy »

And two weeks after this discussion died down Kobe Bryant had his nose broken during Sunday's game by Dwayne Wade. Not catastrophic but still one that had some Lake fans shitting a little blood.
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"Have some of you Americans actually seen Football? Of course there are 0-0 draws but that doesn't make them any less exciting."
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Re: All Star Games/Exhibition Games Discussion [All Sports]

Post by Havok »

On purpose?
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Re: All Star Games/Exhibition Games Discussion [All Sports]

Post by PLR2 »

It was a hard foul but it didn't seem like it was on purpose.
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Re: All Star Games/Exhibition Games Discussion [All Sports]

Post by Darth Fanboy »

Not intentional, but it turns out Kobe did get a concussion out of it and not just a broken nose.
"If it's true that our species is alone in the universe, then I'd have to say that the universe aimed rather low and settled for very little."
-George Carlin (1937-2008)

"Have some of you Americans actually seen Football? Of course there are 0-0 draws but that doesn't make them any less exciting."
-Dr Roberts, with quite possibly the dumbest thing ever said in 10 years of SDNet.
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Re: All Star Games/Exhibition Games Discussion [All Sports]

Post by houser2112 »

Kill it. Last year, I said to myself, "I haven't watched the Pro Bowl in years, maybe it'll be different this year.". It wasn't. The Pro Bowl is a waste of time because the players aren't allowed to play, and wouldn't even if they were. Move the Super Bowl back to the week after conference championships, too.
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