StarDestroyer.Net BBS

wautd wrote:Edit: the show's samurai wanking aside, I was actually surprised when they tested the samurai armor and how effective it was.

Maybe, just maybe, in the zeal to debunk samurai as being the ultimate warrior, people have taken it too far in the other direction. After all not invincible does not necessarily mean armoured in paper with a sword made out of pottery.

Anyway, this show continually surprises me with how willing it is to be utterly stupid. I mean, really, Vlad the Impaler versus Sun Tzu? Vlad the Impaler versus Sun Tzu? Fucking really? Not even Spacebattles could come up with something that dumb, and they've made an art out of dumb versus battles. Maybe there can be a twist ending where Vlad shows up for the one on one duel, only to discover that Sun Tzu ignored it and burnt all his crops.

It'd be better if Vlad turns into a vampire and Sun Tzu has to counter him with a wooden stake through the heart, with kung fu.

It would drive the show out from under the sphere of ridiculousness and into the absurd, which could actually be a good thing.

The thing that shits me most about Samurai wankers is that they focus so much on the katana. Actually samurai primarily used a kind of longbow, which much like the katana was made of crappy materials. Many samurai were horse archers, it was only towards the end of the samurai era that the whole ''sword-wanking, honor is everything'' mentality really got going.

Neko_Oni wrote:The thing that shits me most about Samurai wankers is that they focus so much on the katana. Actually samurai primarily used a kind of longbow, which much like the katana was made of crappy materials. Many samurai were horse archers, it was only towards the end of the samurai era that the whole ''sword-wanking, honor is everything'' mentality really got going.

Which "end of the samurai era"? Because as far as I can recall the acknowledge last hurrah of the samurai, the Satsuma Rebellion of 1877, had most of them armed with British and Russian muzzle-loading rifles, cannons, and mortars. Sounds more like common sense warfare than sword-and-honor-wankery.

Ilya Muromets wrote:Which "end of the samurai era"? Because as far as I can recall the acknowledge last hurrah of the samurai, the Satsuma Rebellion of 1877, had most of them armed with British and Russian muzzle-loading rifles, cannons, and mortars. Sounds more like common sense warfare than sword-and-honor-wankery.

Sorry, you're right, I'm misremembering it badly (it's been awhile since I took Japanese history, at least that's my excuse). At least I got the main thrust right, that for the most part the katana was not as important as it is often made out to be.

What you are referring to is the Tokugawa Shogunate, which brought an end to the Warring States period. Without any wars to fight, Samurai instead devoted their time and energy into dueling with swords. Katana-wanking is just a romanticisation of that period. Samurai didn't fight battles with solely bows either - they used lances, naginatas, and swords as well. It's really during the Tokugawa era that swords came to the forefront.

Neko_Oni wrote:Actually samurai primarily used a kind of longbow, which much like the katana was made of crappy materials.

Look, help me out here a little, but are you suggesting that even Japan's wood is inferior to its European equivalent?

Ford Prefect wrote:

Neko_Oni wrote:Actually samurai primarily used a kind of longbow, which much like the katana was made of crappy materials.

Look, help me out here a little, but are you suggesting that even Japan's wood is inferior to its European equivalent?

Yumi Bows were composite affairs made from bamboo and leather. From what i gather, however they were more powerful and they had stronger bowstrings than what was available in Europe.

Zor

No, yumi incorporate bamboo into their construction, in later the 1500s-1600s as the core of the bow, but they weren't purely made out of it*. There are other kinds of wood in Japan. Not that it really matters, given that bamboo is pretty incredible.

*I've never heard of bows made out of nothing but bamboo, which might be a failure of my knowledge, but certainly the most notable designs did not have such construction.

Zor wrote: Yumi Bows were composite affairs made from bamboo and leather. From what i gather, however they were more powerful and they had stronger bowstrings than what was available in Europe.

Zor

Yumi bows had draw weights of ranging from 30-90 pounds, the English longbow had a range of 80-120 pounds of draw weight. That's gonna translate to far more range and impact than the former, so I'd hardly call the yumi stronger.

Zor wrote:Yumi Bows were composite affairs made from bamboo and leather. From what i gather, however they were more powerful and they had stronger bowstrings than what was available in Europe.

Uhm, which era are we talking about here? Because when the yumi becomes composite is around 1550, which is approx 200 years after the era of the english longbow.
They simply do not compare in draw. With the english longbow outclassing the Higo Yumi.
This is of course for a specific reason. The assymetry of the yumi was supposed to let you fire from horseback. A limitation the english longbow cared little for. So accuracy traded for power.

Well, yeah. But Zor didn't specify which time period or for what use exactly, which I took to mean that he was talking about all European longbows. So, I used one of the more powerful European longbows I could think of as a counter-example.

-Ilya
Agreed. Nothing implied vs your response. I just thought it strange that Zor would specifically mention them being composite and at the same time try a little bit of budo wanking.

The SS v Viet Cong weapons have been announced.

SS:
Mid Range: MP28
Short range: Mauser C96
Explosives: Schrapnelmine
Special: Flammenwerfer 35.

Okay, so, they claimed the C96 is a fully automatic pistol. This is not totally wrong - it did have a select fire variant, which was intended for sale to the East and so would probably be better as a Viet Cong option, since only the Wehrmacht used it.

The MP28 is a questionable choice next to the MP40, but I don't know enough about it's service history to comment.

Viet Cong:
Mid Range: MAT-49N
Short range: TT-33
Explosives: POMZ-2 mines and F-1 grenades
Special: Punji traps

No real comment except that really, the SS should also have a grenade.

So they're going with pre- or early-WW2 SS and First Indochina War era VC? At least, that's what it looks like from the load out.

Although, the C96? WTF? Even during the 30s that was already falling out of favor. And the Schnellfeuer didn't have anywhere near the numbers for it to be a standard pistol for the Wehrmacht let alone the Waffen-SS.

loomer wrote:The MP28 is a questionable choice next to the MP40, but I don't know enough about it's service history to comment.

I once heared the MP40 was pretty rare compared to the MP28 but people like Thanas probably know better than me.

Saw the episode last night. Man, those 2 Germans who presented the SS arsenal looked like charicatures

I was surprised the VC lost. After all, their submachine gun was a portable AA-gun (what with effortlessly shooting down that Huey helicopter 2 miles away )

wautd wrote:I was surprised the VC lost. After all, their submachine gun was a portable AA-gun (what with effortlessly shooting down that Huey helicopter 2 miles away )

...While being waved around wildly in a 90o+ arc...

wautd wrote:

loomer wrote:The MP28 is a questionable choice next to the MP40, but I don't know enough about it's service history to comment.

I once heared the MP40 was pretty rare compared to the MP28 but people like Thanas probably know better than me.

It was. The MP40 was only ever issued to elite units, paratroopers, tank crews and assault infantry. The SS, which was equipped with second-rate stuff due to the Wehrmacht hating them and thinking them unprofessional rabble (an assesment which generally was true, though it changed later on), likely only used the MP40 in very limited numbers. Note that this however changed, you can see pics of the battle of warsow with whole squads of SS men having MP40s, but for the vast majority of SS men, the MP28 is a far better representative.

That said, why anybody would pick the SS and make it the subject of a glorified "TOUGH GUYS" competition is beyond me. Far better to have picked elite Wehrmacht formations like the Panzer-Lehr or the Grossdeutschland division.

How does a civilian his hands on a Bouncing Betty? I knew it's easy to get firearms in the states, but landmines?

Norade wrote:

wautd wrote:I was surprised the VC lost. After all, their submachine gun was a portable AA-gun (what with effortlessly shooting down that Huey helicopter 2 miles away )

...While being waved around wildly in a 90o+ arc...

Heat seaking, jet-propelled bullets?

wautd wrote:How does a civilian his hands on a Bouncing Betty? I knew it's easy to get firearms in the states, but landmines?

Special permit? I know the Mythbusters get either people who can purchase these things to help them, or they apply to the right permits to use them. I would assume other similar programs do the same.

Norade wrote:

wautd wrote:I was surprised the VC lost. After all, their submachine gun was a portable AA-gun (what with effortlessly shooting down that Huey helicopter 2 miles away )

...While being waved around wildly in a 90o+ arc...

Heat seaking, jet-propelled bullets?[/quote]

No wonder our southern cousins lost. The Vietcong were cheating!

wautd wrote:Saw the episode last night. Man, those 2 Germans who presented the SS arsenal looked like charicatures

I was surprised the VC lost. After all, their submachine gun was a portable AA-gun (what with effortlessly shooting down that Huey helicopter 2 miles away )

I only saw the episode today (only the third or so time I've seen this show overall), and the two SS representatives (especially that ex-German military guy) definitely came off as being arrogant wankers. I also looked up the outcome prior to watching, and even then I'm still surprised.

I agree that the Schnellfeuer was an unfair choice, seeing as the Waffen-SS never even used them to begin with as far as I know; the Walther P38 probably would have been far more appropriate. For all I know, they probably would have abused the Luger by bringing out the full-auto variant with the snail drum mag. Also, punji stick versus flamethrower? Seriously?

Well get ready for a few more ridiculous comparisons. Scorpion bolt thrower vs chakram for long range, then they use the pilum for medium range vs a metal whip. There were so many contradictory statements this episode too, they say about the pilum "once it's thrown it's gone" yet for the chakram that's not mentioned and considering they carried multiple pilum. Scorpion was accurate up to 50 yards and they say it's slow to reload but they mention this is a one on one fight, so it makes sense that each battle started with a bolt to the chest, the Rajput would be out ranged. Also the final comments, "Centurions were formation fighters while Rajput where super awesome 1on1" something to that effect was pretty dumb considering they never said that about Spartans.

Watched the centurion vs. Putjab episode… Do they ever acknowledge for these ‘tests’ the people testing the weapons often weigh a good forty pounds more then the actual users?

Meest wrote:Well get ready for a few more ridiculous comparisons. Scorpion bolt thrower vs chakram for long range, then they use the pilum for medium range vs a metal whip. There were so many contradictory statements this episode too, they say about the pilum "once it's thrown it's gone" yet for the chakram that's not mentioned and considering they carried multiple pilum.

Pila.

Scorpion was accurate up to 50 yards and they say it's slow to reload but they mention this is a one on one fight, so it makes sense that each battle started with a bolt to the chest, the Rajput would be out ranged. Also the final comments, "Centurions were formation fighters while Rajput where super awesome 1on1" something to that effect was pretty dumb considering they never said that about Spartans.

So who "won"?

Also, it is a bit idiotic to take Centurions. After all, these were the hardcore veterans or the most promising young officers, so if they wanted elite roman fighters, one of the special auxillary forces or the Praetorian guard would be better.

Thanas wrote:

Scorpion was accurate up to 50 yards and they say it's slow to reload but they mention this is a one on one fight, so it makes sense that each battle started with a bolt to the chest, the Rajput would be out ranged. Also the final comments, "Centurions were formation fighters while Rajput where super awesome 1on1" something to that effect was pretty dumb considering they never said that about Spartans.

So who "won"?

Rajput warrior. As far as I can tell they just pick the one with the flashier weapons and style unless it's a complete blowout for one side.