Fleet vs Armada

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JGregory32
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Fleet vs Armada

Post by JGregory32 »

This is something that has been bugging me today. Is there a difference between a fleet or an Armada? I know the that Armada is the Spanish word for Fleet but has the term changed over time?
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Re: Fleet vs Armada

Post by Simplicius »

I recommend you ask your nearest search engine.
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Re: Fleet vs Armada

Post by JGregory32 »

wiktionary seems to define an Armada as a large fleet, with special reference to the Spanish Armada. Anybody know the point where a fleet becomes a armada? Is it something subjective or something definitive?
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Re: Fleet vs Armada

Post by Ghost Rider »

Simplicius was on the ball on what he said.

Hell, Merriam Webster:

Main Entry: ar·ma·da
Pronunciation: \är-ˈmä-də, -ˈmā- also -ˈma-\
Function: noun
Etymology: Spanish, from Medieval Latin armata army, fleet, from Latin, feminine of armatus, past participle of armare to arm, from arma
Date: 1533
1 : a fleet of warships
2 : a large force or group usually of moving things <an armada of fishing boats>

Main Entry: fleet
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English flete, from Old English flēot ship, from flēotan
Date: 13th century
1 : a number of warships under a single command; specifically : an organization of ships and aircraft under the command of a flag officer
2 : group 2a, b; especially : a group (as of ships, planes, or trucks) operated under unified control

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Re: Fleet vs Armada

Post by B5B7 »

I would consider an armada to be the majority of a nation's (or planet's) ships in a single fleet, directed at a single target.
Also armada has a definite conquest/invasion feel to it, whereas fleets can perform many functions.
This is of course when the word armada is used by English speakers.
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Re: Fleet vs Armada

Post by Havok »

So at what point does a fleet of warships stop being a fleet and become an armada? At what size is the armada of fishing boats, merely a fleet?
The definition is great and all, but it doesn't answer the question. Unless you just say that they are completely interchangeable however a group of ships doesn't seem to ever start out as an armada and get bigger until people call it a fleet, but the other way around.
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Re: Fleet vs Armada

Post by Sarevok »

I would be more interested in how the military defines fleet and armada than look up some dictionary as well.
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Re: Fleet vs Armada

Post by Brother-Captain Gaius »

The dictionary definitions only offer denotations. I suspect that those curious are fully aware of the simple definitions and are asking about the connotations of each word, which is much more interesting.

For whatever it's worth, "fleet" seems to suggest a much more technical and organized use of the term, whereas "armada" is a bit more informal.

For example, you would probably not refer to a 3rd Expeditionary Armada. More likely it would be called the 3rd Expeditionary Fleet. Conversely, if you're staring at a colossal formation of uncountable 104-gun ships-of-the-line heading straight for you, chances are you'd say "Good lord, that's a massive armada!" rather than refer to it as a mere fleet, which is too sterile and clean of a term to properly express the impending doom in the air.
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Re: Fleet vs Armada

Post by Ghost Rider »

Then look what it means. Spanish for Fleet in naval terms is Armada. They have other words denoting fleet, but for a navy they use Armada.
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Re: Fleet vs Armada

Post by AniThyng »

For what it is worth, there *is* a similar spanish derived word that has a clear meaning - "flotilla", used to refer to a small fleet of small warships e.g. frigates and such.

Judging by the actual Spanish use of the word Armada though, it would more accurately be translated as "navy" e.g. "Armada Espanola", so clearly there is some shift in connoctation/meaning here.

*then again, perhaps that says more about the relative meaning of "fleet" versus "navy" in english, much like how "Army", the entire force is not the same as "Army", the administrative grouping above "Division".
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Re: Fleet vs Armada

Post by Ghost Rider »

AniThyng wrote:For what it is worth, there *is* a similar spanish derived word that has a clear meaning - "flotilla", used to refer to a small fleet of small warships e.g. frigates and such.

Judging by the actual Spanish use of the word Armada though, it would more accurately be translated as "navy" e.g. "Armada Espanola", so clearly there is some shift in connoctation/meaning here.
Actually the only difference is the thought that Armada refers to a navy/fleet/ships of a national persuasion. Fleet can have differences since fleets can refer to non national as well as few interesting differences for the spanish language. So there is a difference in that aspect.

As for the english use of it? Depends mostly on the person because usually they are not coming close to the original meaning and so far that has been bastardized by the fact people will proclaim massive armadas and fleets being interchangeable in usage and having none of the meaning behind a national persuasion or not.
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Re: Fleet vs Armada

Post by Stark »

Armada is like dreadnought; people with no idea have been wrong so long it's now an accepted meaning. Armada just means fleet, but in the world of the British Empire 'armada' always recalls the Spanish armada, so it's seen as a larger or dominant fleet.
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Re: Fleet vs Armada

Post by JGregory32 »

Building on what has been said so far how does this strike people as a working definition.
Fleet: A large number of similar vehicles sharing the same purpose, i.e. a fleet of merchant ships, a fleet of cars, or a fleet of fishing ships.
Armada: A group of military vessels comprised of two or more formal fleet elements who purpose is aggressive in nature.
To explain what I mean by 'two or more formal fleet elements' try to picture a grouping of formal fleets like the US Pacific Fleet combined with the Japanese Self Defense Fleet or the Australian Fleet who purpose is to invade or attack a target like the Philipines or China. Aggressive in nature and comprised of two or more organizational military fleets, that in my mind is a Armada.
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Re: Fleet vs Armada

Post by AniThyng »

JGregory32 wrote:Building on what has been said so far how does this strike people as a working definition.
Fleet: A large number of similar vehicles sharing the same purpose, i.e. a fleet of merchant ships, a fleet of cars, or a fleet of fishing ships.
Armada: A group of military vessels comprised of two or more formal fleet elements who purpose is aggressive in nature.
To explain what I mean by 'two or more formal fleet elements' try to picture a grouping of formal fleets like the US Pacific Fleet combined with the Japanese Self Defense Fleet or the Australian Fleet who purpose is to invade or attack a target like the Philipines or China. Aggressive in nature and comprised of two or more organizational military fleets, that in my mind is a Armada.
Somehow i think you missed the point and are conflating the formal naval hierachy term 'fleet' with the informal civvie usage. English speaking navies do not use 'armada' as a organizational unit. And i'm sure you realise it is the 'Japanese self defence FORCE', which is formally divided into 'escort fleets'. Like how the US Navy is divided into 2nd fleet etc.
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Re: Fleet vs Armada

Post by JGregory32 »

AniThyng wrote:Somehow i think you missed the point and are conflating the formal naval hierachy term 'fleet' with the informal civvie usage. English speaking navies do not use 'armada' as a organizational unit. And i'm sure you realise it is the 'Japanese self defence FORCE', which is formally divided into 'escort fleets'. Like how the US Navy is divided into 2nd fleet etc.
I do apologize, the previous post was written very early in the morning when I was having trouble sleeping.
My point, if I had a point was that in my mind and usage the term Armada should be used to describe a military force comprised of several fleets with hostile intentions.
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Re: Fleet vs Armada

Post by Ghost Rider »

JGregory32 wrote:
AniThyng wrote:Somehow i think you missed the point and are conflating the formal naval hierachy term 'fleet' with the informal civvie usage. English speaking navies do not use 'armada' as a organizational unit. And i'm sure you realise it is the 'Japanese self defence FORCE', which is formally divided into 'escort fleets'. Like how the US Navy is divided into 2nd fleet etc.
I do apologize, the previous post was written very early in the morning when I was having trouble sleeping.
My point, if I had a point was that in my mind and usage the term Armada should be used to describe a military force comprised of several fleets with hostile intentions.
Considered how bastardized the words have become? Sure.

It doesn't mean this at all, and demonstrated armada is the word fleet with a specific navy connotation rather then just bigger larger or more of the same.
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Re: Fleet vs Armada

Post by Havok »

I've been looking around and some people seem to think that an armada is a fleet of LARGE warships. Whereas a flotilla is a fleet of smaller warships of a similar type i.e. all submarines, and a fleet is a more generic term for all of the above. Take that as you will.
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Re: Fleet vs Armada

Post by AniThyng »

Flotilla at least is has precedent for being used by the US Navy in the recent past as an actual formation:

http://www.history.navy.mil/docs/wwii/Pearl/ph4.htm

"Armada" on the other hand has always seemed to be used informally. Thinking about it, it would actually work well in describing the D-Day invasion fleet, and very likely was used in that context. But unlike "flotilla" it is not the actual formation name.

Informal use of flotilla would work perfectly for the international anti-piracy fleet off somalia, since one would be hard pressed to call a collection of frigates with a handful of destroyers an "armada".
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