Penn & Teller's "Bullshit"

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Penn & Teller's "Bullshit"

Post by Kodiak »

So, in looking through for some entertaining shows I came across Penn & Teller's Bullshit! Has anyone else seen this show and can express an opinion? I'm watching the very first episode and I like their angle, their sincerity, and their method of going right to the heart of scams and calling them what they are.
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Re: Penn & Teller's "Bullshit"

Post by Rye »

It's fun, but as time goes on their lolbertarian bias starts to grate. The smoking episode in particular is annoying, as are any where they deal with the environment (they seem to subscribe to Anne Coulter's "rape the world, it's yours!" view where human economy matters far, far more than anything else). The college one had a few good points but the conclusions were a bit abrupt and lame. The circumcision one is absolutely fantastic. Required watching.
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Re: Penn & Teller's "Bullshit"

Post by thejester »

It's 'entertaining' but generally all they do is set up on one partisan hack for a fall, abuse him on the voiceover and then trot out their own expert to give you the truth. Sometimes they're right (say, creationism) but other times as Rye points out they just advocate a ridiculous lolbertarian viewpoint.
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Re: Penn & Teller's "Bullshit"

Post by Boyish-Tigerlilly »

As others have said, they do have a bias. You just need to locate the right episodes to see it.

However, on the issue of smoking, I think they recanted their opinion later and apologized for being wrong on that episode. I am not sure if they did it for any others.
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Re: Penn & Teller's "Bullshit"

Post by mr friendly guy »

You can see segments of it on youtube to get a feel of the program, and see whether you like it. Start with the bottled water, mother theresa, feng suit ones.
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Re: Penn & Teller's "Bullshit"

Post by Darth Fanboy »

You must watch the one on colonic irrigation.
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Re: Penn & Teller's "Bullshit"

Post by Netko »

A particularly grating one, if you want to get really pissed off at them, is the one about the Americans with Disabilities Act. Basically, they take the lolibertarian view that businesses would carter to people with disabilities do to market pressure, which anyone with a brain and an ability to look at times and places without protections sees that it doesn't happen. Worse, they then trot out dishonest arguments against it (like the one about the braille script on drive-through ATMs, ignoring that they're just the usual ATMs positioned differently and as such no one is going to make different models just for the drive-through), along with a frankly ghoulish stunt (you have to see it to believe it) and an utter assholish attitude (they actually have a scene complaining against mandatory handicapped parking).

Despite them making several superb episodes, after that one I couldn't stomach watching the show again.
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Re: Penn & Teller's "Bullshit"

Post by [R_H] »

Darth Fanboy wrote:You must watch the one on colonic irrigation.
The fancy enema one? If it's that one you're talking about, then yeah, it's good.

Like the others have said, there are certain episodes where their libertarian bias shows. The (illegal) immigration is another one where a bias is noticable. It was cool how they showed what kind of a joke the fence is and how quick it took the guys who built it to tear through it.
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Re: Penn & Teller's "Bullshit"

Post by salm »

Their presentation is really annoying. They come off like moronic tough guys with that tone of voice they´re using.
They enforce the image of tough guy idiot with an obsessive over use of unnecessary swear words and being condescending.
I have no problem with using swear words and being condescending when done right but paired with their "tough guyness" it just makes them look socially retarded.
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Re: Penn & Teller's "Bullshit"

Post by Zixinus »

The quality of the shows are a mixed bag. Sometimes they make good points, other times they are idiots. If you are not afraid to see something that you don't agree with, then I would recommend it.

Expect the whole thing to be a freakshow though.
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Re: Penn & Teller's "Bullshit"

Post by Kodiak »

Zixinus wrote:The quality of the shows are a mixed bag. Sometimes they make good points, other times they are idiots. If you are not afraid to see something that you don't agree with, then I would recommend it.

Expect the whole thing to be a freakshow though.
Thanks for the evaluations. I honestly wish that James Randi would start his own show. I'd love to see his expertise applied to a lot of this stuff.
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Re: Penn & Teller's "Bullshit"

Post by Zixinus »

Thanks for the evaluations. I honestly wish that James Randi would start his own show. I'd love to see his expertise applied to a lot of this stuff.
He did? It was a show where he replicated the tricks that psychics and the like supposedly do. Problem was, that he didn't show any actual magical talent.
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Re: Penn & Teller's "Bullshit"

Post by weemadando »

The Psychic Dolphin one is the best of recent seasons. So fucking crazy.
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Re: Penn & Teller's "Bullshit"

Post by Rogue 9 »

Well, they have James Randi on Bullshit! fairly frequently. I have the first four seasons on DVD. There's a pretty good chunk of it I disagree with, but it's entertaining enough that I don't particularly care. The PETA and conspiracy theory episodes make it all worth it. :grin:
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Re: Penn & Teller's "Bullshit"

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Rogue 9 wrote:Well, they have James Randi on Bullshit! fairly frequently. I have the first four seasons on DVD. There's a pretty good chunk of it I disagree with, but it's entertaining enough that I don't particularly care. The PETA and conspiracy theory episodes make it all worth it. :grin:

I actually dont like the PETA one even though I hate PETA because they take a position so far into an inconsistently form of Anthropocentrism that it makes me sick. Saying they would kill every chimp on the planet to save one AIDs ridden junky. Fuck that
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Re: Penn & Teller's "Bullshit"

Post by Braedley »

There are a number of issues that they bring up where I don't agree with their position (the first one that comes to mind is their gun control episode), but on the whole, I agree with most of their views, and they present them in an entertaining fashion. There are definitely some episodes that are better than others. And to top it all off, many episodes contain at least some nudity, although in one episode they had to blur some because apparently, Showtime won't let them show erect penises.
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Re: Penn & Teller's "Bullshit"

Post by General Zod »

weemadando wrote:The Psychic Dolphin one is the best of recent seasons. So fucking crazy.
That one was pretty good, I also liked their NASA and Stranger Danger episodes, along with the Faith Healing one. But I found their Environment episode somewhat grating, since it really makes their lolbertarian nonsense stand out.
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Re: Penn & Teller's "Bullshit"

Post by Darth Wong »

Didn't they spout some stupid bullshit about second-hand smoke to the effect that it's harmless because some poorly controlled epidemiological studies failed to find a correlation?

And why go after PETA? The problem with PETA is their unpopular moral value system, but that's not a matter of fraud, hence not "bullshit". It's a matter of a different value system, and if you're going to call certain subjective value systems "bullshit" just because your own values are different, that's pretty questionable.
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Re: Penn & Teller's "Bullshit"

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Destructionator XIII wrote:If I remember correctly, their arguments against PETA is that the leaders of the organization are hypocrites and liars: they claim animal products and medical research on animals are evil, yet when those same things are beneficial for their own health, PETA's leaders eat them right up.
Did they happen to mention the oft repeated example of PETA euthanizing huge numbers of animals?
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Re: Penn & Teller's "Bullshit"

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Destructionator XIII wrote:If I remember correctly, their arguments against PETA is that the leaders of the organization are hypocrites and liars: they claim animal products and medical research on animals are evil, yet when those same things are beneficial for their own health, PETA's leaders eat them right up.
Well, I believe that human experimentation is evil, but if some of the Nazis' horrible human medical experiments proved useful for medical science, I would have no problem using the fruits of that research. It would be silly to cut ourselves off from useful knowledge because we hate the people who did the original research.
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Re: Penn & Teller's "Bullshit"

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The Spartan wrote:
Destructionator XIII wrote:If I remember correctly, their arguments against PETA is that the leaders of the organization are hypocrites and liars: they claim animal products and medical research on animals are evil, yet when those same things are beneficial for their own health, PETA's leaders eat them right up.
Did they happen to mention the oft repeated example of PETA euthanizing huge numbers of animals?
:?: The humane society euthanizes shitloads of animals too, but we don't insist that they stop calling themselves "animal shelters", or claiming that they are pro-animal, or claiming that they're against animal cruelty.
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Re: Penn & Teller's "Bullshit"

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Darth Wong wrote:Didn't they spout some stupid bullshit about second-hand smoke to the effect that it's harmless because some poorly controlled epidemiological studies failed to find a correlation?
They now admit that they got that one wrong, but apparently they're saving it (and the rest of their retractions) for the last episode, "Bullshit: Bullshit".
Kodiak wrote:Thanks for the evaluations. I honestly wish that James Randi would start his own show. I'd love to see his expertise applied to a lot of this stuff.
Check out James Randi: Psychic Investigator. He invites people making paranormal claims to come on his show and demonstrate that they actually can do what they say, and then they fail, and then he thanks them politely for coming. Also, Fry and Laurie showed up in the audience one time and made fun of a psychic. The whole thing is schadenfreude-tastic.
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Re: Penn & Teller's "Bullshit"

Post by Rogue 9 »

Darth Wong wrote:
The Spartan wrote:
Destructionator XIII wrote:If I remember correctly, their arguments against PETA is that the leaders of the organization are hypocrites and liars: they claim animal products and medical research on animals are evil, yet when those same things are beneficial for their own health, PETA's leaders eat them right up.
Did they happen to mention the oft repeated example of PETA euthanizing huge numbers of animals?
:?: The humane society euthanizes shitloads of animals too, but we don't insist that they stop calling themselves "animal shelters", or claiming that they are pro-animal, or claiming that they're against animal cruelty.
Yes, but PETA claims it is absolutely wrong for any human, anywhere, ever to harm an animal, yet they euthanize the vast majority of animals they take in, over two-thirds of them. That's a rate far higher than the Humane Society or most local animal shelters. The Humane Society does not make that claim, and they euthanize far fewer animals.

This same position is what makes it hypocritical for their directors to use animal-derived treatments, and at least one, MaryBeth Sweetland, is a Type 2 diabetic who takes insulin. They regularly denounce animal research as not worth killing animals to save human lives, yet don't have that quibble when it comes to their own personal well-being.

They appeal to pet owners for donations, yet say keeping pets is a form of animal exploitation and demand the immediate release of all pets into the wild. I'd say failing to mention that when appealing to animal owners for money constitutes some form of fraud, even if it isn't technically illegal.

Oh, and they fund domestic terrorism. ALF and ELF firebombers have gotten money from PETA for their legal funds after they're caught and charged. They gave an interest-free loan (or so it says on their taxes; he never paid the money back) to convicted firebomber Rodney Coronado, and hired another ELF terrorist whose name I forget to work for PETA and go around doing lectures at schools. In the episode they have footage of Coronado instructing a group of people on how to make a firebomb out of a milk jug.

I'd say that's plenty to go after them for.
Last edited by Rogue 9 on 2008-10-09 02:15pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Penn & Teller's "Bullshit"

Post by Rye »

Darth Wong wrote:
The Spartan wrote:
Destructionator XIII wrote:If I remember correctly, their arguments against PETA is that the leaders of the organization are hypocrites and liars: they claim animal products and medical research on animals are evil, yet when those same things are beneficial for their own health, PETA's leaders eat them right up.
Did they happen to mention the oft repeated example of PETA euthanizing huge numbers of animals?
:?: The humane society euthanizes shitloads of animals too, but we don't insist that they stop calling themselves "animal shelters", or claiming that they are pro-animal, or claiming that they're against animal cruelty.
Doesn't PETA condemn the human society and animal shelters for doing that, though? In fact, I think the episode detailed how PETA bought far more animals than they could look after from animal shelters and then killed the majority of them. Even though my beliefs are generally pro-animal welfare, that's incredibly fucked up.
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Re: Penn & Teller's "Bullshit"

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Rogue 9 wrote: They appeal to pet owners for donations, yet say keeping pets is a form of animal exploitation and demand the immediate release of all pets into the wild.
Do you have a source for this one?

I didn't think it sounded right, so I checked out the PETA site and I can't find any source for this. Frankly, it really doesn't even make sense, since a pet or other domesticated animal has very little chance of surviving in the wild. Releasing them would simply result in a slow, lingering death for the stronger ones and a quick, brutal death for the weaker, I suspect.

The PETA FAQ on "Animal Companions": http://www.peta.org/about/faq-comp.asp

There are also several articles and blogs on the PETA site in which PETA people talk favorably of owning pets and their own personal pets.

I'm not attempting to refute any of your other points. I've heard of those before and seen evidence presented on them. This one was new, though.

Sorry to continue the derail. OT I've seen a couple episodes of Bullshit! and really enjoyed them. I've got to go with the majority in here and say that most episodes are good, but others are a bit too libertarian for me. I just got free Showtime for a year, so if it comes back on, I'll be able to see it again.
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