Surprise Surprise, Windows fatally Flawed

[Crazy_Vasey]

Myth: It is very difficult to install apps on Linux.
Fact: Ever tried it? It's only difficult if you're hopelessly clueless and you don't know how to read a README file. 99% of open-source apps nowadays will compile with "configure ; make". Precompiled binaries for RTCW and OpenOffice work fine. And in many cases, the apps you need come bundled with the distro anyway, already pre-compiled and configured.

You must be a very lucky man if you've never ran into dependancy problems in linux. I've had all sorts of wierd and wonderful problems mainly to do with KDE and the kernel headers. KDE apps really are arcane at times in their problems, KDevelop the last time I tried to compile it issued a crap load of error messages because it was using a KDE libs version that was slightly different from the one that came with my distro, I'm talking a single point release difference here breaking the compile.

Oh yeah and Mandrake is mad on some of the dependencies on it's RPMs. KDevelop can interface with GIMP if you wish so it gets added as a dependancy and I get to dp another 9 meg download. In the words of Lord Vader, yippee!

And then there was the time XFRee86 was dependant upon netscape navigator, I uninstall netscape and bye bye goes my GUI.

Or when the kernel decided it was dependant upon the Fortran compiler, how can a precompiled package programmed in C be dependant upon the fricking fortran compiler?

And for that matter the kernel compile process can be really bitchy, one time following the instructions exactly I rebooted after doing all the make make install etc and what did I get? A kernel image is too large message

I won;t even get into the hoops I had to jump through to get my modem working.

Bah! Most of my problems disappeared when I binned Mandrake and got Slackware.

Oh yeah and every new release of GCC they change the fucking C++ ABI so everything has to be recompiled, from the system libraries on up. They changed it in 2.95, 2.96, 3.0 and they're changing it for 3.2 this is one area MS beats them in, when they release a new VC++ they don't break binary compatibility anywhere near as bad.

[Darth Wong]

You must be a very lucky man if you've never ran into dependancy problems in linux.

Either that, or I'm simply not clueless. I was simply making the point that the difficulty of installing Linux apps was being grossly exaggerated. I came into Linux cold, and had no problem getting up and running with basic apps and functions. More advanced stuff took some work, but it always does. As for software installs, I made the point that many distros come with all the software you need for basic office work already pre-installed, hence installation troubles are irrelevant.

I've had all sorts of wierd and wonderful problems mainly to do with KDE and the kernel headers. KDE apps really are arcane at times in their problems, KDevelop the last time I tried to compile it issued a crap load of error messages because it was using a KDE libs version that was slightly different from the one that came with my distro, I'm talking a single point release difference here breaking the compile.

And if you try to use DLL's from NT 4.0 in win2k or even from the wrong service pack level in win2k, you'll have problems too. So what? Are you seriously trying to say that you should be able to mix and match different release levels of KDE software and libraries when you compile them, and expect smooth operation anyway? And since we're talking about newbie ease of use, why are we talking about custom-compiling pieces of the desktop anyway?

Oh yeah and Mandrake is mad on some of the dependencies on it's RPMs. KDevelop can interface with GIMP if you wish so it gets added as a dependancy and I get to dp another 9 meg download. In the words of Lord Vader, yippee!

Or you can simply download the source and compile, rather than complaining about a 9MB download (how big are win2k sp3? Oh yeah ... 130 MB).

And then there was the time XFRee86 was dependant upon netscape navigator, I uninstall netscape and bye bye goes my GUI.

If you uninstall a piece of software without checking its dependencies, that's your problem. Try uninstalling Internet Explorer from Windows. In the case of Mandrake, you can simply install other browsers if you want; this is hardly a problem worth whining about.

Or when the kernel decided it was dependant upon the Fortran compiler, how can a precompiled package programmed in C be dependant upon the fricking fortran compiler?

Your complaints mostly centre around the particular set of dependencies chosen by one team when they compiled the software. These are not valid complaints about Linux in general, and in fact, most newbies (the people who are supposedly going to have all these troubles with Linux) will not run into the problems you describe, for the simple reason that they're not going to try uninstalling pieces of the distro.

And for that matter the kernel compile process can be really bitchy, one time following the instructions exactly I rebooted after doing all the make make install etc and what did I get? A kernel image is too large message

Right. And when you try to recompile the WinXP micro-kernel and reboot, you ... oh, wait. M$ won't even let you see the kernel, much less recompile and customize it, will they?

I won;t even get into the hoops I had to jump through to get my modem working.

I found it easy. But I agree that hardware setup is easier on Windows (I even said so in my last message). I never said that Linux is better for everything, but I am trying to make the point that many of the anti-Linux points made by the pro-M$ crowd are either exaggerated trivialities or just plain wrong.

Oh yeah and every new release of GCC they change the fucking C++ ABI so everything has to be recompiled, from the system libraries on up. They changed it in 2.95, 2.96, 3.0 and they're changing it for 3.2 this is one area MS beats them in, when they release a new VC++ they don't break binary compatibility anywhere near as bad.

Again, this has little or nothing to do with basic user issues. You're basically saying that you'd rather develop software for Windows. You may make some valid points, but they're not relevant for most end-users or even administrators.

[Crazy_Vasey]

Either that, or I'm simply not clueless. I was simply making the point that the difficulty of installing Linux apps was being grossly exaggerated. I came into Linux cold, and had no problem getting up and running with basic apps and functions. More advanced stuff took some work, but it always does. As for software installs, I made the point that many distros come with all the software you need for basic office work already pre-installed, hence installation troubles are irrelevant.

If you don’t need to use software that your distro doesn’t come with or don’t need a newer version than yeah you’re right it’s pretty hard to mess things up. That is one good thing for Mandrake at least they have a buttload of packages.

And if you try to use DLL's from NT 4.0 in win2k or even from the wrong service pack level in win2k, you'll have problems too. So what? Are you seriously trying to say that you should be able to mix and match different release levels of KDE software and libraries when you compile them, and expect smooth operation anyway? And since we're talking about newbie ease of use, why are we talking about custom-compiling pieces of the desktop anyway?

I’ve mixed and matched DLLs between win2K and win98 before without any problems.

It was a point release. It was like 2.2.1 to 2.2.2 or something and they changed a name of one of their class members or something similar so when you got to the make stage you got a mess of error messages. And kdevelop isn’t a core part of KDE it’s a separate tool although I think they might bundle it now

Or you can simply download the source and compile, rather than complaining about a 9MB download (how big are win2k sp3? Oh yeah ... 130 MB).

Compiling from source doesn’t help an RPMs dependencies (false as they are). That is a problem at times as well, if you mix packages and source compiling dependencies can (will) get messed up.

And source downloads are often larger than the binaries (Mozilla is a good example, 10 meg or so to download a binary and about 25 meg for source)

Win2K service packs aren’t quite the same as a paint package. It’s a bit of an unfair comparison and it’s not like you actually need them running a home system most of the time. Unless you’re one of the fools who runs with every single service enabled you likely won’t notice a difference.

And my point was well I was venting because some of the packagers at Mandrake are braindead

If you uninstall a piece of software without checking its dependencies, that's your problem. Try uninstalling Internet Explorer from Windows. In the case of Mandrake, you can simply install other browsers if you want; this is hardly a problem worth whining about.

It is when you’re a linux newbie and your GUI goes walkabouts and you have to reinstall using commandline RPM tools. You’re right I should have checked but I didn’t expect it to be that fricking retarded. KDE needs NN4 to function… yeah… It was and still is a moronic decision almost on the level of MS making IE core to the system and making OE run VB macros

Your complaints mostly centre around the particular set of dependencies chosen by one team when they compiled the software. These are not valid complaints about Linux in general, and in fact, most newbies (the people who are supposedly going to have all these troubles with Linux) will not run into the problems you describe, for the simple reason that they're not going to try uninstalling pieces of the distro.

True but the fortran compiler is not a key part of the OS, not even close really I’m not aware of any software that requires it.

That’s just me venting at Mandrake and their stupidity in some of their decisions mostly.

Right. And when you try to recompile the WinXP micro-kernel and reboot, you ... oh, wait. M$ won't even let you see the kernel, much less recompile and customize it, will they?

Never had the need to recompile a windows kernel. It’s just worked and whenever I needed to update there were binaries.

And seeing the source is of NO use to nearly everyone, it’s not exactly newbie friendly code to say the least.

Again, this has little or nothing to do with basic user issues. You're basically saying that you'd rather develop software for Windows. You may make some valid points, but they're not relevant for most end-users or even administrators.

I couldn’t care less about it personally, I just use the latest version of GCC that I can get because earlier versions invariably have problems that I want or need fixing.

And for cross distro compatibility (which I see a holy grail for linux) it is a grade A nightmare. Something this fundamental should have been nailed down when the C++ standard was finalised back in oh 1997 or so. That’s five years and they still haven’t stabilised yet but they are making steps forward to a common standard.

I found it easy. But I agree that hardware setup is easier on Windows (I even said so in my last message). I never said that Linux is better for everything , but I am trying to make the point that many of the anti-Linux points made by the pro-M$ crowd are either exaggerated trivialities or just plain wrong.

Yeah but I had a bloody winmodem. I had to get a binary driver for the wrong kernel version to work and it was a fricking nightmare, situation is better now with RPMs and a source download but I’ve dumped 56k and gone cable modem.

Linux might get there for end users in a couple of years but before it can do so it needs to fix up a few things. Distros need to standardise on a package format, how sweet would it be to not have to hunt around for an RPM or .deb that works for your distro? It would be as easy as using windows, just double click, hit the install button and it works. A good GUI control panel would be nice especially for beginners, their eyes just glaze over when you tell them they have to edit a text file.

Xfree needs sorting as well. On distros that don’t have their own custom installers for it the damn thing is crusty as hell and shows its age. It doesn’t help that the autodetect script didn’t work on my Geforce2mx, hardly an obscure chipset either.

Ack this is way too long and I’m tired so it’s probably not very eloquent. I’ve also got the feeling that it lost the point somewhere. I just wanted to make the point that software install is getting better but needs improving.

[MKSheppard]

I have to say, I'm waiting for some major games to be released for Linux,
as well as for the Linux packages to "settle down"....when I get another
new comp, my old Pentium II 450mHz is gonna be my testbed for
Linux.....I want to play around on something non-critical for my needs
before I make the BIG LEAP

[Crazy_Vasey]

Most of the Q3 engine games are available for linux as is UT. Problem is it's very hard to make money selling software for linux, especially games, it's made even worse by the fact that they normally take about 6 months after the windows release and then complain when sales are low. What do they expect? People have already bought the windows version!

[Durandal]

Yah you are crazy. Do you know how much money you would have to spend getting people up to speed on a new linux distro? TONS AND TONS of it. it would be flying out the window. The average office worker is a task specialist, not computer specialists, confusing them is not a good idea.

I don't care. I'm talking about Linux as a server, not as a client. The fact is that Linux is a better server platform, and any network admin who knows anything will tell you that.

Whether a company gets virsuses, its mostly depends on the competence of the IT dept, not the users.

Partially true. Most MSCE's are incompetent. However, the fact that network admins are forced into installing server software with known vulnerabilities, which 99% of all virii are written for, is simply absurd. Windows 2000 and Exchange Server have numerous, documented, old, unfixed vulnerabilities. Network admins should not have to make up for Microsoft's failures.

Most virsuses can be stopped before they get into the hands of the user or do any damage. And its not like you cannot combine open source tech with windows. I run a modified apache (to id itself as IIS) on a windows 2k machine.

And why the fuck would you do that unless you were ready to admit that Microsoft's software simply sucks?

The fact is that Windows itself is expensive, insecure, exploitable garbage in a server environment. Since Windows 2000 Server comes with IIS, most people don't even bother with Apache, because IIS is already there. If they really wanted to use Apache, they'd build a Linux box and save thousands.

Granted something is free, but anicllairy costs like better admins really add up.

MSCE's are mostly incompetent. You need five or six of them to run a single network with anything near efficiency. One or two Linux admins could run a Linux server network better, and I can guarantee you that.

For every $1 you spend on licenses you are likely to spend about 16 on sequential expenses. So its not really such a cut and dry issue. It really depends on the people you are supporting.

But Windows is so exorbitantly expensive to maintain that it overshadows almost everything else. Linux distros don't force you into upgrades. Microsoft does. That costs a shitload of money.

whats a good idea for your netowrk admin, to most admins I have met who have just M$ certs, it would be a mind blowingly expensive option, considering the people involved.

That's because most MSCE admins are incompetent. They memorize a few facts, but they can't troubleshoot or problem solve unless they got that knowledge somewhere else.

For example, right now I'm helping the guys at my dad's office get the place fully wired. The network admin keeps complaining that Microsoft is going to stop supporting its older Mail server and that he should get Exchange. Management is a bunch of morons, so they want the hype behind the Microsoft name. They don't want some no-name Linux distro, even when I could probably download a server distro, install it on a machine and set it up with POP3 and SMTP mail services ... for only the cost of the hardware.

[His Divine Shadow]

security through obscurity

Thats true for Linux too since hackers want to hack windows boxes, not linux boxes mostly, so linux is kinda sheltered in that regard whilst windows gets this free "serivce" from hackers, I think it's good.

Oh and:
http://arstechnica.infopop.net/OpenTopi ... 5610976925

[His Divine Shadow]

The horror storyes I could tell... Coming from 1988 trying to learn Unix then 97 Dabbing with Linux and I made the biggest mistake of my life
I went to a Linux web-board
Arrgh the attidue for newbies....
How to describe it....

I once got FreeBSD and I went to a IRC channel and asked for help and I was riducled and then banned...
Gave up on it then.
I now have a Linux Distro running next to my NT4 and XP partitions, but I hardly use it, I dunno what to do with it, I don't want to do the ordinary stuff like surfing and crap because it's honestly not as good as on Windows where the whole interface just flows together much more seamlessly, I even have KDE3 installed but it's still not as good as the Windows GUI I think.

But this is not what it's for either if you ask me, I want to do something interesting and non conventional with it, cause thats the impression I get from these *nix systems, heighten my knowledge of linux and the stuff wich comes with it, is there anything I could do on it to further that?

[MKSheppard]

I once got FreeBSD and I went to a IRC channel and asked for help and I was riducled and then banned...
Gave up on it then.

How is Linux going to be the M$ beater if newbies are treated like this??

[Crazy_Vasey]

I can say a lot about Linux-Mandrake, little of it good but their community site at http://www.mandrakeuser.org is quite good and not at all hostile to newbies.

[Mr Bean]

Mandrake is about the only decent one out there and fourtunatly the community there changed, The board there used to be un-moderated and made Space-Battles look like a talk between Gandhi and The Dali Lama compared with them..

Lots of bannings later sure its better but the idiots are still out there...

[Crazy_Vasey]

That must have been a long time ago I've been visiting there every so often for a year now at least.

[Durandal]

Shep: Simple, it won't be the Windows killer. Linux is far too inconsistent in its interface, and quite frankly, Windows XP is a better GUI, and aside from monstrous costs and Microsoft's increasingly invasive activation schemes, Linux has no advantages over Windows for the common computer user.

However, on a server level, Linux is better. Windows 2000 Server is inadequate for even basic file and print sharing services. We had to take the network down today, and we told everyone to log out of their shared directory on the server. Well, one person, of course, did not. Guess what happened? All her files were corrupted, and the server took an extra 20 to 30 minutes to boot up because it had to run disk checks because of the corrupted files. All because Windows is too fucking stupid to automatically log users out on a shutdown for this exact reason. Netware would have done it. Linux would have done it. Mac OS X would have done it. FreeBSD would have done it. Windows didn't.

[phongn]

I once got FreeBSD and I went to a IRC channel and asked for help and I was riducled and then banned...
Gave up on it then.

How is Linux going to be the M$ beater if newbies are treated like this??

To be fair, HDS was referring to the BSD community rather than the Linux community - they are not the same.

[Azeron]

However, on a server level, Linux is better. Windows 2000 Server is inadequate for even basic file and print sharing services. We had to take the network down today, and we told everyone to log out of their shared directory on the server. Well, one person, of course, did not. Guess what happened? All her files were corrupted, and the server took an extra 20 to 30 minutes to boot up because it had to run disk checks because of the corrupted files. All because Windows is too fucking stupid to automatically log users out on a shutdown for this exact reason. Netware would have done it. Linux would have done it. Mac OS X would have done it. FreeBSD would have done it. Windows didn't.

1 look at this, and I know you don't know what you are talkimg about, and I wonder about the competence of your admin. Have you ever set up a Samba netowrk? Have you ever managed a Windows Domain? Do you even know what "Windows unified Login" is? Do you know how to track and manage windows users logged into a server? Do you even know how to properly shut down a server?

How can you evaluate windows as a server if you have really never set it up? Do you know about the security beenfits a widnwos 2k. XP server offers over unix?

You seem to be doing a lot of preaching regarding unix/windows but I don't see a whole lot of demenostrated knowledge.

I love how you imply say "well my company's admin told me windows sucks, and so do most windows admins, but he is good" then demonstrate he probably isn't that good in the first place. Perhaps the problems he is running into is a result of incompetence. I see 3 major IT failures resulting from a lack of the understanding of the techology involved and a planning failure, and finally a proceedual failure. Thats not even counting backup, recovery, contingency planning, analysis, and ineffectual repair after the accident occured. If you or your admin came to my desk, reported this accident and then proceeded to blame it on the OS, I would have forwarded a termination request to HR for being a greater danger to operations than any of the 99% of all viruses written for windows.

Anyone (nearly) who runs Samba knows that yah "its a great unix tool" but quite frankly its not a "bet the company infrastructure" tool, well at least on a medium - large scale. Unix is fine in many things, like DCHP, http server, SMTP, POP3, IMAP, some component in a multiiered application, or every step of the way in a Vertical application, but manageing a windows domain is not one of them. It workws fine as a client on a windows domain, provided it has winbind, but not as PDC or BDC that includes print sharing as well. You claim that BSD or OSX would have done better, far as I can tell you have to throw the Samba kill proccess manually before doing shutdown in Samba, so I don't see hgow you can claim that unix does this automatically. Quite frankly, even if it did generate the proper end session messages, it wouldn't have mattered, and the damage would be the same.

Yah granted IIS sucks, but so do some other propietery applications of unix systems. apache has bugs as well, that make it vulnerabel to attack. if you haven't upgraded to 1.3.26 you are generally considered vulnerable. but Yes I aggree I like apache over IIS, doesn't make Unix Supperior in every single way. Just that the web server, apache is superior to IIS (And even that is depending on what you are trying to do, and what your needs are)

Yes, money is a question, which is why small operations do tend to try to adopt unix if they can get something for free, but when they realize the additional costs of proper unix administration, they tend to shy away. 6 windows admins to run windows efficentl?y, try 1 80k win admin will handle all your troubles. $80k gets you a junior unix admin who will be still be learnign the more advanced topics on the job.

$16 to 1 is the windows typical cost ratio comparing licensing fees to total cost of ownership. so its really about 6% of what you are paying for, not a lot at all.

Suppose unix can do A, B, and D supperior to windows 2k server. but suppose that C is by far the most important task that your network, like file sharing, and domain management, updating all the windows computers automatically. I would probably shoose excahnge. Far as I can see there is no comparable Unix free/payware that comes close to doing what win2k server with exachange server does.

Quite frankly you are not qualified to be handing out these pronoucements about windows or linux, you have a lot to learn.

BTW as for those people that treated you like crap on the #channels or the newsborads by and large its just idiots who are insecure about thier knowledge of the technology so they have to look 3133t by berating n00bs, the Mandrake community is pretty good however. However Before spouting out newbie questions, you should avail yourself of the opportunity to read a few of the huge number of linux tutorials online, or buy a book or 2 (and read them). Ticks a lot of people off that n00bs ask questions listed in a FAQ easily accessed from the frontpage of most distros.