What would you do if your child became a fundamentalist?

[Surlethe]

What the title says. Given how my in-laws, especially my father-in-law, have treated my wife, this is a question we've talked about regarding our own child, since we intend to raise her, well, non-fundamentalist. The way I currently see my job is this: to produce a healthy, productive, rational adult. Beyond that, all I can do is love my children (current and future) unconditionally and always be welcoming and willing to reasonably support them. So if my daughter at some stage became a fundamentalist, I suppose my reaction would be to talk it through with her - question her, see how well she has internalized critical thinking and applied it to her new beliefs. Beyond that, though, I suppose I would welcome her into our home and still be her loving father, even though her actions disappointed me.

So, how would you react if your children became fundamentalists? Or evangelicals? Or (if you are of the evangelical persuasion) atheists? How would you ideally react? How would you probably react? How does this jive with your parenting vision?

[Ghost Rider]

For the fundamentalist, I'd probably blame myself, given the persuasion and my parents and peers, literally means that I let my kid get influenced by someone greater then me as a parent...for a very long time.

If of the other bent? Similar. I have no other way of framing it because the parents are the greatest influence on the child for most of the formative years, and what you do will define them. They will either take your views or reject them because of you.

[Simplicius]

Given my attitudes, those of my parents, and those of my likely wife and likely in-laws, I don't think it would be a likely occurrence. If somehow it did - despite being raised in the middle of two families of curious, intelligent, not-religious and religious-but-tolerant people - then it could only represent a huge failing on our part that our child somehow never picked up the ability to ask questions, seek out answers, and avoid falling into closed-mindedness.

I suppose all I could do would be to continue to try and promote curiosity and intellectualism at home, and make sure that any questions the child did have received fair and honest answers. If she decided to take her fundamentalism seriously as she got older then conflict might arise because I couldn't possibly support that particular endeavor - it would be an abrogation of my parental responsibility to make sure my children are well-equipped to prosper in the wide world, since fundamentalism is a mentally limiting attitude and is antithetical to that purpose.

If she continued to be a fundamentalist as an adult I don't think it would necessarily damage the relationship (assuming any childhood conflicts were eventually resolved, forgiven, or whatever) - unless she turned out to be an incessant proselytizer or a ceaseless trumpet of her views. That would be difficult for me to stand, and the ensuing arguments would be a good reason not to go visit very often.

[Darth Wong]

I would argue with him until he sees reason.

Seriously, that sounds like a flip answer but it's pretty much accurate. The fact is that fundamentalist arguments do not have anywhere near as much intrinsic validity as atheist and scientific arguments, and so the only way for fundamentalists to uphold their belief system is to use a combination of "la la la la I can't hear you" tactics and grossly dishonest tactics. Frankly, those kinds of tactics work far better for a fundie parent than for a fundie child, who cannot easily ignore his parents or shout them down with authority tactics.

[Mr Bean]

Depends on what he's/she's a fundamentalist of.

No son or daughter of mine if I could help it would be intellectually lazy, so if they do become a JW, or Evangelical, then the first thing I'd do is find a nice country to break them of the habit/and or make being a fundamentalist a harder thing to do. While I like DW's idea of simply talking them through that, I'd fear the shut down default response to much to simply try to badger or reason them out of it.

The best response is simply preventive, expose your children to as much science and as much knowledge as possible, expose them to higher learning early in the sense and make use of the things your children will be taught in school(Easter Bunny, Santa Clause ect) are objective lessons on widely held delusions that everyone has growing up, but some people keep all the way through their life.

[Darth Wong]

While I like DW's idea of simply talking them through that, I'd fear the shut down default response to much to simply try to badger or reason them out of it.

Kids can't shut down or dismiss their parents that easily. The reason some kids turn out more fundie than their parents is simply that there's a pretty straight line between mainstream Christianity and fundamentalist Christianity anyway. Mainstream Christians are incapable of making all the arguments against fundamentalism that I could.

In fact, the only real difference between mainstream Christianity and fundamentalist Christianity is a sense of certainty. The mainstream Christian realizes that his religion is just a set of personal beliefs, so he allows for the possibility that his beliefs may be wrong, or that his interpretation is flawed. The fundamentalist allows for no such thing: he is absolutely certain of his beliefs. The beliefs themselves aren't much different.

PS. Technically, one might argue that fundie beliefs are a lot different by citing things like YEC. But that's also more a matter of certainty; both sides believe the Bible is based on something real, so the only question is how hard one must work in order to convince them that a certain part of the Bible is false. With moderates, they're willing to let it slide if the science seems to be overwhelming (although a lot of them still trend toward creationism anyway), but with fundies, there is absolutely nothing which would convince them.

[Dark Flame]

I honestly don't know what I would do. Since I'm not currently (nor will I be in the near future) a parent, that's a tough question for me. I'm hoping that I could expose them to critical thinking and let them handle it. If they choose to believe in Christianity, that's fine.

If they do things the fundie/JW/Evangelical way, I'm hoping to be rational and kind and try to persevere and get them to think.

Unfortunately, I could see myself just ignoring everything they say, and stop spending any time with them. This works better for an adult child, obviously. If they're still young and believe this stuff, I'd hopefully opt for Mike's way and use parental authority to get my points across.

I also think Bean's preventative approach is a great idea. I would think that if a child is raised by parents that value critical and logical thinking, then that would be a natural thing for the child to do and would give them the tools to come to their own conclusions through thinking.

[Superman]

I'd probably view it as some kind of rebellion and blame myself for screwing him/her up.

[tim31]

Writing things off as 'rebellion' assumes that they'll get over it on their own, in my opinion. I don't think I just leave it at that. My parents raised me under the premise that if I wanted religion, it was there, but they weren't going to brand me; in fact, my father was raised a protestant and then threw it all out the window using the same reasonings as most learned atheists, while my mother was raised a catholic and let it lapse after bearing my(half) older sister. But you know what they say about habits dying hard...

At the end of the day, I won't discourage religion in the kids, especially as we're going to be sending them to schools that have certain mandatory components. I will impress the fact that christianity is an interpretation of unverifiable stories written by people who lived a long time ago. I won't discourage them from church groups as a social network, but it is unlikely that they would be involved in such things if they have not been introduced to them by their parents.

I can't really conceive, at this point, circumstances that would have either of my kids becoming fundies, short of some sort of major socio-economic change in this country as a reaction to national/world political events, or some sort of cataclysm. But that's another bag of angry cats.

[Superman]

Writing things off as 'rebellion' assumes that they'll get over it on their own, in my opinion.

Oh, I disagree. As my psychiatrist has pointed out, rebelling against a parent can be a lifelong issue. I'm convinced that my dad, who was a fundamentalist pastor for years, went into the Jesus business because my grandfather who raised him always told him that type of thing was bullshit. My grandfather was also a mean and extremely abusive parent who had a terrible relationship with my dad for years. Becoming a pastor, as my dad now admits, gave him a sense of power and independence on some level from my grandfather. In fact, and interestingly enough, he actually stopped being a pastor when my grandfather died... but that's another topic.

But you're also right in that rebellion can be a phase... it's just not always the case.

I don't think I just leave it at that. My parents raised me under the premise that if I wanted religion, it was there, but they weren't going to brand me; in fact, my father was raised a protestant and then threw it all out the window using the same reasonings as most learned atheists, while my mother was raised a catholic and let it lapse after bearing my(half) older sister. But you know what they say about habits dying hard...

I'm glad it wasn't crammed down your throat like it was mine. I had to go and participate with all that church crap at least 3 times per week for hours on end. If I didn't, my dad never hesitated to beat the crap out of me. It was pretty frustrating, to say the least.

At the end of the day, I won't discourage religion in the kids, especially as we're going to be sending them to schools that have certain mandatory components. I will impress the fact that christianity is an interpretation of unverifiable stories written by people who lived a long time ago. I won't discourage them from church groups as a social network, but it is unlikely that they would be involved in such things if they have not been introduced to them by their parents.

Yeah, I see what you mean. If I someday have kids who become fundamentalists, I certainly would see it as at least partially being a failure on my part. I'd still want to have a relationship with him/her, but I'd also try and get to the bottom of it. Hopefully I can someday have the kind of relationship with any future kids where we can talk openly about these types of things.

I can't really conceive, at this point, circumstances that would have either of my kids becoming fundies, short of some sort of major socio-economic change in this country as a reaction to national/world political events, or some sort of cataclysm. But that's another bag of angry cats.

I can't picture it either. At any rate, I've yet to meet a fundie (I'm talking militant/aggressive fundies here) who didn't grow up in some kind of screwed up home with jerkoff parents (even if they don't realize it), and I hope that I could do a better job with any future kids than that.

[tim31]

My father has hangups from abuse at the hands of his father, but his rebellion involved first getting a motorcycle and second leaving home. From what I've been able to peice together from accounts of my uncle, who is a church minister(albeit Uniting Church, so not hardcore), they were both preening egotists thanks to my paternal great-grandmother, who was apparently quite a schemer(although my father does not agree with this, and has a somewhat rose tinted view of her, as she helped raised him in lieu of his mother, who he didn't see after the age of about eight until he was the age I am now, just before her death).

In my dad's case, his upbringing meant he rebelled away from the church; going into the medical profession(especially in women's healthcare) cemented it.

[Superman]

Yeah, I think people are either fundie by upbringing or they convert later in life to deal with their own problems. Maybe that's not always the case, but it's certainly held true in my experience.

Anyway, if my future kids ever become fundies, I wouldn't want to give up on them. I'd definitely try and bring them back to the Light Side.

[Solauren]

First, what are they 'Fundie' about, and in what way?

Some types of fundie are rather harmless. Hey, if my kid want's to waste 3 hours a day meditating to Buddha, that's his problem. However, if she's starting fights over Buddha, well, that's s problem.

I'm going to assume Christian Far Right Nut Case Style or whatever the term would be.

Second, I find out why they went Fundie, and immediately set about covertly removing (or at least neutralizing it's) that as an influence in their life. Depending on the source, they could be anything from not letting them hang out with someone, changing teachers/schools, blocking channels, game nights, or depending, restraining orders.

Next, I find out the crux of their beliefs, and figure out a way to tear them apart. Skeptics Annotated Bible comes to mind, as does modifying a bible story, reading them that, and when they scream it's evil, point out it's a bible story, and I just changed the names.

Really however, it depends on how old the kid is at the time, and what caused them to go fundie, and about what. That would really dictate both how immediate, and longer term response.

[Darth Wong]

Some types of fundie are rather harmless. Hey, if my kid want's to waste 3 hours a day meditating to Buddha, that's his problem. However, if she's starting fights over Buddha, well, that's s problem.

You'll change your tune when you have kids of your own. Seriously, what the fuck kind of idiot thinks it's OK for his kid to waste his life as long as he's not hurting anyone else? That's the attitude we take toward complete strangers, not our own progeny. We want our own children to be happy, successful, productive human beings. It is completely unacceptable for a parent when he sees his kid wasting his life. If my kid went Buddhist fundie and wanted to live in a monastery and chant mumbo-jumbo for the rest of his life, you can goddamned well bet I'd be unhappy about it.

[Superman]

If my kid went Buddhist fundie and wanted to live in a monastery and chant mumbo-jumbo for the rest of his life, you can goddamned well bet I'd be unhappy about it.

I agree with you, but what if he claimed that he honestly felt happier than he's ever been as part of that monastery? I think this is where it gets kind of complicated. Of course it's all religious bullshit, hell I tend to see religious people as plain nuts, but I'd also want my kid to be happy. I'm not sure how I would handle that.

[Darth Wong]

If my kid went Buddhist fundie and wanted to live in a monastery and chant mumbo-jumbo for the rest of his life, you can goddamned well bet I'd be unhappy about it.

I agree with you, but what if he claimed that he honestly felt happier than he's ever been as part of that monastery?

Every fucking cult member says that. It's either brainwashing or selfish horseshit. I don't just want my kid to be selfishly happy in his own deluded world, isolated from reality. I want him to be a productive human being who gives something back to the society that gave us all so much. Anything else is unacceptable. I demand that from myself, I demand it from my children.

What kind of person abandons all of his responsibilities in life, to his friends, to his family, to society, and goes to wall himself up in a place where he can focus on his own happiness and nothing else?

I think this is where it gets kind of complicated. Of course it's all religious bullshit, hell I tend to see religious people as plain nuts, but I'd also want my kid to be happy. I'm not sure how I would handle that.

Having your child grow up to be a happy but monstrously self-absorbed little shit is not acceptable.

[LadyTevar]

Guys? This isn't really Relationship-Based, and it's turning into "Bash the Fundies"

Off to OT it goes.

[Darth Wong]

Tev, the font colour you use is almost invisible against the BlackSoul background. And while I'm not going to overrule, I wonder if the move is somewhat premature. It's mentioning fundies, but it's still largely about how one raises one's own children. Unfortunately, most of the people in this thread have absolutely no idea how that's done, so I have to be the one to point out that a father has the right to expect more of his children than "they keep to themselves and don't hurt anybody".

[Singular Intellect]

I have to be the one to point out that a father has the right to expect more of his children than "they keep to themselves and don't hurt anybody".

So as a father, what is more important to you? Your kids being happy, or being productive?

Let's assume for the moment that they would only truly be happy engaging in what you've defined as 'unproductive' activities, and relatively unhappy otherwise.

[Pint0 Xtreme]

I have to be the one to point out that a father has the right to expect more of his children than "they keep to themselves and don't hurt anybody".

So as a father, what is more important to you? Your kids being happy, or being productive?

Let's assume for the moment that they would only truly be happy engaging in what you've defined as 'unproductive' activities, and relatively unhappy otherwise.

Wow. False dilemma fallacy 12 o'clock! I don't believe for a split second that there exists one person for which there is not a productive lifestyle that is also fulfilling.

[Singular Intellect]

Wow. False dilemma fallacy 12 o'clock! I don't believe for a split second that there exists one person for which there is not a productive lifestyle that is also fulfilling.

What makes you think your personal beliefs have shit to do with the point of my question?

I asked the question with a specific assumption; whether you think that assumption is realistic or not is irrelevent to the point.

[Darth Wong]

I have to be the one to point out that a father has the right to expect more of his children than "they keep to themselves and don't hurt anybody".

So as a father, what is more important to you? Your kids being happy, or being productive?

Why should I have to choose? Why can't I assign equal weight to both?

Let's assume for the moment that they would only truly be happy engaging in what you've defined as 'unproductive' activities, and relatively unhappy otherwise.

And we should assume that ... why? This is not some fucking abstract thought exercise, you little twat. And I'm not interested in playing whatever game you want to play. These are my children, and if you have something to say, then grow some fucking balls and say it, otherwise shut the fuck up before I ram your bullshit down your throat.

If you're trying to say that it's bad to expect anything other than pure selfish happiness for your children, you're an idiot. It's like saying that you'd rather raise a happy asshole than a less happy but more decent person. I don't want to raise a selfish asshole, no matter how happy he is.

[Havok]

I have to be the one to point out that a father has the right to expect more of his children than "they keep to themselves and don't hurt anybody".

So as a father, what is more important to you? Your kids being happy, or being productive?

Let's assume for the moment that they would only truly be happy engaging in what you've defined as 'unproductive' activities, and relatively unhappy otherwise.

Wow. False dilemma fallacy 12 o'clock! I don't believe for a split second that there exists one person for which there is not a productive lifestyle that is also fulfilling.

Forced laborers spring to mind. In fact there are tons of lifestyles that are "productive" but are not fulfilling in any way.

[tim31]

I said I'd let them go to church if they wanted, I didn't say I was going to let them go extreme.

[Darth Wong]

I don't believe for a split second that there exists one person for which there is not a productive lifestyle that is also fulfilling.

Forced laborers spring to mind. In fact there are tons of lifestyles that are "productive" but are not fulfilling in any way.

Did you thoroughly read that sentence before replying to it? He's not saying that there's no such thing as an unhappy productive lifestyle. He's saying there's no such thing as a person for which there is no productive/fulfilling lifestyle to be found, which is slightly different. In any case, it's the same black/white fallacy.