UPDATE II: Asiana Flight 214 Crash at SFO July 2013

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Broomstick
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UPDATE II: Asiana Flight 214 Crash at SFO July 2013

Post by Broomstick »

Initial crash thread
First update thread

From CNN:
Asiana says pilot error partly to blame for San Francisco plane crash
By Stella Kim and Laura Smith-Spark, CNN
updated 7:30 AM EDT, Tue April 1, 2014

Asiana Airlines says pilot error was partly to blame in last year's crash
The airline also cites auto throttle problems and inadequate warning systems
Three people died after the plane hit the seawall at San Francisco International Airport
The airline says the flight crew failed to execute a "timely go-around" when needed

(CNN) -- South Korea's Asiana Airlines admitted Tuesday that pilot error was partly to blame for the crash of Asiana Flight 214 in San Francisco last July, in which three people were killed.

Lee Hyomin, a spokeswoman for Asiana Airlines, said the pilot was not solely responsible for the crash but "could have failed to respond quickly" to factors including problems with the aircraft's auto throttle system.

The auto throttle problem was compounded by inadequate warning systems to alert the flight crew when the plane's airspeed fell too low, she said.

The spokeswoman also cited the "flight crew's failure to execute a timely go-around when the conditions required it by the company's procedures."

Another contributing factor was "air traffic control instructions and procedures that led to an excessive pilot workload during a high-energy final approach," she said.

As well as the three who died, scores of passengers were injured when the Boeing 777 struck the seawall at San Francisco International Airport and tumbled down the runway.

In January, Asiana filed a lawsuit against Boeing alleging that some equipment on the plane was improperly installed or defective, resulting in inadequate warnings for the pilots about low airspeed.

U.S. investigators have also looked at what part an airport navigation system that was out of service while runway improvements were made may have played in the crash.

Flight 214's pilot, Capt. Lee Kang Kuk, told the National Transportation Safety Board last year that he found it "very stressful, very difficult" to land without the glideslope indicator that helps pilots determine whether the plane is too high or too low during approach.

In February, the U.S. Department of Transportation fined Asiana Airlines $500,000 for failing properly to assist families affected by the crash.
I have some comments on the following:
the pilot was not solely responsible for the crash but "could have failed to respond quickly" to factors including problems with the aircraft's auto throttle system.
Could have? Could have? He DID fail to "respond quickly". Paying attention to your airspeed on final is basic, basic flying. The pilots are supposed to be in charge here and they failed to respond.
The auto throttle problem was compounded by inadequate warning systems to alert the flight crew when the plane's airspeed fell too low, she said.
Bwuh? Is this person claiming the Airbus doesn't have a stall warning system? No sink rate indicators? No stick shakers? You know, none of the basic required equipment for a fucking airliner?
The spokeswoman also cited the "flight crew's failure to execute a timely go-around when the conditions required it by the company's procedures."
:roll: They failed to execute a "timely go-around" when the goddamned laws of physics demanded it, screw airline regs.
Another contributing factor was "air traffic control instructions and procedures that led to an excessive pilot workload during a high-energy final approach," she said.
What. The. Fuck? The pilot is the final authority in flying an airplane. The pilot has the authority, nay, the obligation to fly the fucking airplane. That INCLUDES disregarding ATC instructions if following those instructions would result in an unsafe situation. That INCLUDES altering procedures as needed to ensure a safe landing.

Here is the goddamned regulation, chapter and verse:

14 CFR 91.3a: The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.
14 CFR 91.3b: In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency.


If your landing is starting to go pear-shaped, if you're about to crash, YOU DO WHATEVER YOU FUCKING HAVE TO DO to prevent that, INCLUDING ignoring ATC and standard procedures if that is what is required! DO NOT blame ATC in this you fucking assholes!


God damn this pisses me off.

The ONLY reason Aisana isn't totally dumping on the pilots is because doing so would force them to admit there is something seriously fucked up with their pilot training. There is something rotten in that airline, seriously.

There wasn't a goddamned thing wrong with the weather that day.
There wasn't a goddamned thing wrong with the airplane.
ATC didn't do a goddamned thing wrong here.

This airplane crashed and people died due to pilot INCOMPETENCE

Holy fuck, there is no excuse here - if a pilot can not land his airplane in perfect weather in a sound airplane he is not competent to fly that airplane. Landing aids out? Yes, that does make it less easy but a pilot should still be able to do a competent landing using just old fashioned eyeballs under those conditions.

Holy shit, there's one airline I am NEVER going to set foot on.
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Re: UPDATE II: Asiana Flight 214 Crash at SFO July 2013

Post by Borgholio »

Could have? Could have? He DID fail to "respond quickly". Paying attention to your airspeed on final is basic, basic flying. The pilots are supposed to be in charge here and they failed to respond.
While I'm not as experienced in the air as you are, I have taken a few training flights in a Cessna and it's just like driving a car. Speed going too low, hit the throttle. Or in a plane, if you have altitude, dip the nose a bit. You can't get much more basic than that.
Bwuh? Is this person claiming the Airbus doesn't have a stall warning system? No sink rate indicators? No stick shakers? You know, none of the basic required equipment for a fucking airliner?
Thought it was a Boeing-777. In either case, they're some of the most advanced airliners in the world. They should have everything including the kitchen sink (which I think they actually have one of...)
Another contributing factor was "air traffic control instructions and procedures that led to an excessive pilot workload during a high-energy final approach," she said.
What's excessive about it? Keep the nose up, keep the wings level, fly straight as you can, keep the speed above stall, keep the rate of descent under control. Am I missing something?
Holy shit, there's one airline I am NEVER going to set foot on.
That and Malaysia Airlines...
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Re: UPDATE II: Asiana Flight 214 Crash at SFO July 2013

Post by Broomstick »

Borgholio wrote:
Could have? Could have? He DID fail to "respond quickly". Paying attention to your airspeed on final is basic, basic flying. The pilots are supposed to be in charge here and they failed to respond.
While I'm not as experienced in the air as you are, I have taken a few training flights in a Cessna and it's just like driving a car. Speed going too low, hit the throttle. Or in a plane, if you have altitude, dip the nose a bit. You can't get much more basic than that.
Big airliners do have more inertia so it's vital to anticipate more, and jet engines spool up/accelerate a little differently than piston engines (which is what both your car and a small Cessna use), but yeah, not complicate or hard to figure out. Too slow? Sinking too fast? Adjust pitch and/or apply power. DUH! By the time you're allowed to sit in the seat of one of the Big Iron birds you should know how to deal with that.
Another contributing factor was "air traffic control instructions and procedures that led to an excessive pilot workload during a high-energy final approach," she said.
What's excessive about it? Keep the nose up, keep the wings level, fly straight as you can, keep the speed above stall, keep the rate of descent under control. Am I missing something?
No. It's pretty much "you're cleared for landing on runway ##" and that's it. Landing aircraft have right of way, ATC sits back and watches the pilots fly it down to the ground. All the busy shit happens BEFORE you get to final. And, frankly, if you can't handle the ATC workload in perfect weather, in daylight, flying VFR, with a working airplane you shouldn't be flying a two-seat piston Cessna, much less an airliner!
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
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Re: UPDATE II: Asiana Flight 214 Crash at SFO July 2013

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CNN wrote:In January, Asiana filed a lawsuit against Boeing alleging that some equipment on the plane was improperly installed or defective, resulting in inadequate warnings for the pilots about low airspeed.
That's actually called the 'Pilot Not Flying', and it doesn't come factory installed from Boeing, the airline is required to supply that on their own.
Flight 214's pilot, Capt. Lee Kang Kuk, told the National Transportation Safety Board last year that he found it "very stressful, very difficult" to land without the glideslope indicator that helps pilots determine whether the plane is too high or too low during approach.
Yes, in large commercial aircraft the ILS makes things much easier. Failing that you still have VNAV guidance that you can pull from the FMS, or you can use the ground based visual guidance systems, or you can do a 300ft/nm rule, or any number of other methods. And if it doesn't work for you, if you're inside 500ft and not stable, then go around.
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Re: UPDATE II: Asiana Flight 214 Crash at SFO July 2013

Post by lPeregrine »

Flight 214's pilot, Capt. Lee Kang Kuk, told the National Transportation Safety Board last year that he found it "very stressful, very difficult" to land without the glideslope indicator that helps pilots determine whether the plane is too high or too low during approach.
Wow. This is just pathetic evasion of responsibility. Don't have your fancy instruments? Use the red and white lights like every student pilot is capable of doing. I can't even begin to imagine the low standards for pilot training that give an airliner with hundreds of passengers to an idiot who can't even handle a basic visual approach in perfect weather without flying the plane into the ground. I guess we can only be thankful that they didn't encounter a real emergency...
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Re: UPDATE II: Asiana Flight 214 Crash at SFO July 2013

Post by Thanas »

This reminds me of the Korean air crashes, nearly everything was the same due to the pathetic need to save face.

Broomstick said it best, not an airline I will fly with.
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