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In the news of 'Oh, those silly Iranians', apparently there's a new effort to demonstrate what hair styles men can wear. It's not exactly shocking, but for some reason I personally find it absolutely hilarious:

New York Times link

From the article:

The photos, disseminated on Iran’s semiofficial news sites, look ordinary enough: young men with short haircuts, some with 1950s-style quiffs and a touch of gel on top.

But these haircuts are not just a summer fashion. They are being promoted by Iran’s Ministry of Culture and Islamic Guidance as Islamically permissible models, part of an effort “to halt the spread of unconventional styles and promote Islamic culture.” More styles are set to be unveiled Sunday as part of the ministry’s Veil and Chastity Day festival.

The haircut catalog is part of the Iranian government’s long-running battle against Western cultural influence. Every summer, the country’s morality police renew their crackdown on “un-Islamic” dress and styles, including loose veils on women and long hair or ponytails on men.

It's like they just wake up in the morning and think, "I wonder what kind of ludicrous thing I can use to try to control people with today?" Seriously - there is now an Islamically permissable application of hair gel. I'll say this, though: If they come out with a Ministry of Islamic Walks, I will laugh myself into a coma.

Wow, that's like a scene from "Don't mess with the Zohan". I wonder if they also require you to use humous as hair gel.
My favourite is the second one from the top. I didn't know that Bollywood action hero was an acceptable Iranian hairstyle.

I just can't find this funny. Reminds me of something I think Mike Pondsmith said, years back - real fascism always looks like a parody of itself.

Yeah, there's something laughable about it...until one reflects upon the fact that basij assholes with truncheons are empowered to crack your skull if the hairstyle you're wearing on top of it is sufficiently 'un-Islamic...'

Calls for a national uniform? At risk of smelling all Godwin-y...remember the last national polity that wanted everybody in some kind of party-approved uniform...?

Kanastrous wrote:I just can't find this funny. Reminds me of something I think Mike Pondsmith said, years back - real fascism always looks like a parody of itself.

Yeah, there's something laughable about it...until one reflects upon the fact that basij assholes with truncheons are empowered to crack your skull if the hairstyle you're wearing on top of it is sufficiently 'un-Islamic...'

Calls for a national uniform? At risk of smelling all Godwin-y...remember the last national polity that wanted everybody in some kind of party-approved uniform...?

Well if your like me, it's because we have enough of our own home grown brand of these kinds of idiots, like the ones who ban dancing, rock music, and anything else they don't like and think is sinful and immoral.

Here those people are aren't even taken seriously by most of the politicians who are happy to milk them for votes and pander to their bullshit beliefs.

There those people are firmly in full control of the government, legislature, internal security and military.

Does that not look just the tiniest bit like a different situation, to you?

Yes, but they do their fair share of damage here even with their limited power. The thought of them having any more power and influence is disturbing at best, hence why I find it hard to find it funny.

If those hairstyles are supposed to reflect Islamic culture... why do none of the models have beards? Oh, wait, these are Iranian asstards, not Taliban... sorry, hard for me to tell them apart sometimes.

Temujin wrote:Yes, but they do their fair share of damage here even with their limited power. The thought of them having any more power and influence is disturbing at best, hence why I find it hard to find it funny.

Oh. We agree. And here I thought we were having an argument...

This.

This is what I should have told to the (college educated, no less) woman who told me last weekend that she doesn't believe in the separation of church and state. She said she thought that the country's leaders should take their beliefs, values, and laws from the Bible. That would make this a godly country. This is why the church and the state have to be separate - if they aren't, you get the government controlling things like hairstyles.

And if you don't think American fundies would try such a thing if they were to control the government, think again: fundy schools such as Pensacola Christian College literally legislate how long mens hair can be (not touching their collars, god forbid!), outlaw rock music (the kids still listen to it, but they do get caught and punished for it), and mandate chaperons for dates.

Don't some fundy Christian groups go that route, but even further? Women's hair must be long, women wear only skirts, men's hair must be short...

It's not just Christians, either, or just Muslims - Orthodox Jews mandate beards for men and married women always keep their hair covered. (If you see hair on a married Orthodox woman it's likely a wig).

I don't have a problem with people choosing to follow such rules... but if the government gets involved there won't be a choice.

Liberty wrote:This.

This is what I should have told to the (college educated, no less) woman who told me last weekend that she doesn't believe in the separation of church and state. She said she thought that the country's leaders should take their beliefs, values, and laws from the Bible. That would make this a godly country. This is why the church and the state have to be separate - if they aren't, you get the government controlling things like hairstyles.

And if you don't think American fundies would try such a thing if they were to control the government, think again: fundy schools such as Pensacola Christian College literally legislate how long mens hair can be (not touching their collars, god forbid!), outlaw rock music (the kids still listen to it, but they do get caught and punished for it), and mandate chaperons for dates.

The hilarious thing is that people who always espouse a religious governments never consider that the people who get in power might disagree with their personal interpretations of how things should be done and impose restrictions that they don't like.

Broomstick wrote:Orthodox Jews mandate beards for men and married women always keep their hair covered. (If you see hair on a married Orthodox woman it's likely a wig).

Yes, many haredi etc women shave their heads and put on wigs so as to be complying with the letter-of-the-law interpretation while still looking like they have some hair up there. Fucking insanity.

And we laugh at what people were like in the old days(viz Elizabethan england). Well, I do. We look down our noses at girls killing themselves for fashion. All the while people are pulling that sort of business for the sake of religion. Mustn't buck the trend!

I have zero objection to people killing themselves over their religion. I object to their inability to resist killing other people over it.

It is interesting that neckties no longer appear to be haram. I actually thought that standing-collar style that the Iranians were promoting was a good look.

More styles are set to be unveiled Sunday as part of the ministry’s Veil and Chastity Day festival.

Couldn't help but smirk at that turn of phrase in the article.

Kanastrous wrote:Yes, many haredi etc women shave their heads and put on wigs so as to be complying with the letter-of-the-law interpretation while still looking like they have some hair up there. Fucking insanity.

Wigs... made from human hair, I assume? And if so, then, well, um...

Eeh..

And there, my brain has broken.

I remember the stories told by my father about how he (and others) was sometimes brought to barber so his hair would be cut to the correct length.

One they, they cheated a bit. A teacher tripped over, nose-first and while he was getting up, one of the kids took a ruler to measure what is the allowable hairlength.

Kanastrous wrote:

Broomstick wrote:Orthodox Jews mandate beards for men and married women always keep their hair covered. (If you see hair on a married Orthodox woman it's likely a wig).

Yes, many haredi etc women shave their heads and put on wigs so as to be complying with the letter-of-the-law interpretation while still looking like they have some hair up there. Fucking insanity.

Not really, when you consider the history.

It's European haredi women who wear wigs, not Orthodox Jewesses from other parts of the world, who just cover their hair. The wig-wearing came in as a way to avoid, or at least mitigate, some of the discrimination that occurred by superficially blending in while maintaining the letter of a law important to them. As such, it actually is fairly creative as a solution and not "insane" (what is arguably insane is the "don't show your hair" rule in the first place).

If you do wear a wig (so I am told) having your head shaved or buzzed is more comfortable than trying to stuff a lot of hair up under the thing. Hence, shaved + wig as a "hairstyle".

FSTargetDrone wrote:

Kanastrous wrote:Yes, many haredi etc women shave their heads and put on wigs so as to be complying with the letter-of-the-law interpretation while still looking like they have some hair up there. Fucking insanity.

Wigs... made from human hair, I assume? And if so, then, well, um...

No requirement that the hair the wigs are made from be human.

In fact, they still aren't required to wear wigs - snoods, hats, scarves, etc. are all quite acceptable. They just aren't allowed to show their natural hair. When you get down to it, not that different from the Islamic nutballs - which shouldn't be a surprise, as both religions are middle eastern in origin.

I think there's an additional layer of whacky involved: the women concerned are all about complying with the strict letter of the law (don't show your hair) by pulling a sneaky little switch (shaving *their* hair and wearing someone else's in order to create the appearance of their own hair).

I can't speak for other religions but I have observed a lot of that behavior among Orthodox Jews. Some are willing to inconvenience themselves in true medieval measure, and a lot find a rabbi to sign off on these workarounds that allow adherence to the letter while clearly violating the intent of the laws to which they profess such slavish adherence.

As if they could fool the God they believe in, with silly little bits of subterfuge like that.

Except that they're not fooling God, and know they're not fooling God.

You see, the Christian God - who has become the default for most in the West - is not everyone's God. Jesus arguably cares more about intentions than the exact letter of the law. Yahweh, the Jewish God, on the other hand, is the opposite - arguably, he cares more than you follow the letter of the law than the intent. In the context of Orthodox Judaism there is nothing deceptive about the workaround, it's simply compliance with the letter of the law, which is what is required.

Considering that to most sane people the intent of much of the Mosaic Law is probably about as opaque as opaque can be, I guess you're right.

Broomstick wrote:Don't some fundy Christian groups go that route, but even further? Women's hair must be long, women wear only skirts, men's hair must be short...

The ones I knew from middle school said that girls and women in their sect were not allowed to cut their hair. The really long hair was the result, not the intention. Not that it makes any more sense that way.

Broomstick wrote:Except that they're not fooling God, and know they're not fooling God.

You see, the Christian God - who has become the default for most in the West - is not everyone's God. Jesus arguably cares more about intentions than the exact letter of the law. Yahweh, the Jewish God, on the other hand, is the opposite - arguably, he cares more than you follow the letter of the law than the intent. In the context of Orthodox Judaism there is nothing deceptive about the workaround, it's simply compliance with the letter of the law, which is what is required.

My impression is that, theologically, a lot of the provisions of the law are like secret club handshakes and weird little in-jokes: you do them to reinforce that you're a member of the group, not because it's inherently more righteous for any human being to do them.

If I'm right, for an Orthodox Jewish woman to cover her hair isn't an act of moral righteousness in the classic sense; it's an act meant to remind herself that she is Jewish, and require her to commit to spending those few minutes a day on an activity that she would never perform if she were not Jewish. And for that purpose, shaving your hair and wearing a wig is arguably even better than wearing a big hat that covers up your natural hair- because most women aren't going to shave their hair without a good reason, and this way she is constantly reminded that she is Jewish.

Simon_Jester wrote:

Broomstick wrote:Except that they're not fooling God, and know they're not fooling God.

You see, the Christian God - who has become the default for most in the West - is not everyone's God. Jesus arguably cares more about intentions than the exact letter of the law. Yahweh, the Jewish God, on the other hand, is the opposite - arguably, he cares more than you follow the letter of the law than the intent. In the context of Orthodox Judaism there is nothing deceptive about the workaround, it's simply compliance with the letter of the law, which is what is required.

My impression is that, theologically, a lot of the provisions of the law are like secret club handshakes and weird little in-jokes: you do them to reinforce that you're a member of the group, not because it's inherently more righteous for any human being to do them.

If I'm right, for an Orthodox Jewish woman to cover her hair isn't an act of moral righteousness in the classic sense; it's an act meant to remind herself that she is Jewish, and require her to commit to spending those few minutes a day on an activity that she would never perform if she were not Jewish. And for that purpose, shaving your hair and wearing a wig is arguably even better than wearing a big hat that covers up your natural hair- because most women aren't going to shave their hair without a good reason, and this way she is constantly reminded that she is Jewish.

Not necessarily even that she's Jewish (or even Orthodox Jewish), but it can be a mark of belonging to a specific Orthodox subgroup.

Kanastrous wrote:Considering that to most sane people the intent of much of the Mosaic Law is probably about as opaque as opaque can be, I guess you're right.

Just for accuracy, I'd note that the vast majority of even Ultra-Orthodox Jews don't follow the Mosaic code as written but rather Rabbinical law.