2011 NFL Draft

OT: anything goes!

Moderator: Edi

User avatar
Havok
Miscreant
Posts: 13016
Joined: 2005-07-02 10:41pm
Location: Oakland CA
Contact:

Re: 2011 NFL Draft

Post by Havok »

Kolb is going to cost, based on what Atlanta gave up for a prospect receiver, far too much. Might as well try to just trade for Luck next year if we are going to give up the farm for the next 3 years for a QB. I think Smith is going to get another chance as well. No matter the system Harbaugh is installing, Alex Smith has already ran it. :lol:

Every GM in the league is going to make a run at Asomugha, that isn't exactly news.

Bulger is the QB for Arizona. He is basically another try at repeating Kurt Warner and he will be cheap and ran the same system already. Palmer, if he goes anywhere, will probably be to Seattle. Palmer was the only QB that Carroll had at USC that was actually successful with the system and not because of the talent around him and just completely overmatching their competition. He also doesn't have to learn the offense. By all accounts and according to Dilfer, Hassleback is gone in Seattle and Whitehurst hasn't really impressed anyone in Seattle so they will be in the market and Palmer is the best fit.
Image
It's 106 miles to Chicago, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark... and we're wearing sunglasses.
Hit it.
Blank Yellow (NSFW)
"Mostly Harmless Nutcase"
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: 2011 NFL Draft

Post by Thanas »

Elfdart wrote: The problem isn't so much Owens' bitchy prima donna act, it's the fact that too many coaches and worse still too many QBs are too milquetoast to tell him to shut his face in the huddle or on the sidelines. Unless I had a 100% no bullshit coach or a quarterback who's an MFIC, I wouldn't have him on the roster.

MFIC?


And it looks like the newest reports show that Kolb might be going to Arizona instead of Bulger.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
User avatar
Havok
Miscreant
Posts: 13016
Joined: 2005-07-02 10:41pm
Location: Oakland CA
Contact:

Re: 2011 NFL Draft

Post by Havok »

Mother Fucker In Charge. See: Dan Fouts.

Nah. The brass in Arizona won't trade that much away for Kolb. They have embraced the Steelers model of building through the draft and value picks too highly.

Bulger is the guy that Arizona wanted LAST YEAR, but couldn't get him from Baltimore. Now that he will certainly be a starter going to the red and white, look for that to happen.

Also, keep in mind, the history of the league is replete with the hot back up quarterback that everyone wants based on a few flashy games. More often or not, it doesn't work out. Also keep this in mind, it is not only what Mike Vick does to defenses that can't be simulated in practice, but it is what he does on offense that can't be simulated, which was why Andy Reid went with Kolb as the starter in the first place. It is not that he was better than Vick, it was that Reid wasn't sure Vick was still Vick. Now they know. If Kolb was as good as Reid and the Eagles say, they would be holding onto him and dealing a QB that is going to be 32, which is their M.O..

So they either think Mike Vick is not only the Mike Vick he used to be, but better at 31, or Kolb isn't as good as they say. It could be a combination of both, but I doubt it.
Image
It's 106 miles to Chicago, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark... and we're wearing sunglasses.
Hit it.
Blank Yellow (NSFW)
"Mostly Harmless Nutcase"
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: 2011 NFL Draft

Post by Thanas »

So how do you guys feel about the Atlanta trade?
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
User avatar
Elfdart
The Anti-Shep
Posts: 10653
Joined: 2004-04-28 11:32pm

Re: 2011 NFL Draft

Post by Elfdart »

Thanas wrote:
Elfdart wrote: Unless I had a 100% no bullshit coach or a quarterback who's an MFIC, I wouldn't have him on the roster.

MFIC?
MFIC

Keep in mind that the #80 you see him chewing out on the sideline for not running through the whole pattern was Kellen Winslow, a Hall of Fame tight end and arguably the best ever at his position. But like the Honey Badger, Fouts didn't give a shit. There would only be one guy in charge in the huddle and it was him. Peyton Manning, Tom Brady and Philip Rivers are present-day MFICs, and Brady has the added advantage of having a coach who won't tolerate bullshit, which is why Randy Moss got sent packing. I have little sympathy for Romo, McNabb or other QBs who just stand there when the receiver bitches about not getting the ball.

And it looks like the newest reports show that Kolb might be going to Arizona instead of Bulger.
Kolb is going to the highest bidder. Which is funny because he's done zilch in the NFL.

Thanas wrote:So how do you guys feel about the Atlanta trade?
If you're a bad or mediocre team, there's no way you should make a trade like that. Atlanta was a player or two away from being a real contender, so they paid to get one of those players. If their new receiver pans out, it was worth it.

People worry too much about picks -as though they had an inherent value in and of themselves. If you get the players you wanted, it doesn't matter. I got annoyed during draft coverage when the "experts" kept droning on about how drafting poorly in the 1st round is "devastating" and will "set a team back for years to come". Really? So if I pick a dud in Round 1, but land keepers in the other rounds, my draft was a failure?
Image
User avatar
Havok
Miscreant
Posts: 13016
Joined: 2005-07-02 10:41pm
Location: Oakland CA
Contact:

Re: 2011 NFL Draft

Post by Havok »

Ever since Jimmy Johnson instituted his draft pick value system in the early 90's and won three Superbowls, largely through the draft and Charles Haley, that has been the model pretty much every team uses.

It also forced a false value on draft picks that all the talking heads cling to like rats on a sinking ship.

I like guys like Mike Mayock on NFL Network that use that as a basis, but it isn't the be all end all of his analysis, like some.

The only thing that can devastate a franchise, and I think you are misquoting there a bit, is drafting badly in the top 5 in the first round because of the money you will be paying out and time lost.

If you draft Jamarcus Russell, you are out 39 Million no matter what, plus his yearly salary, plus missing out on letting other QBs play (Jeff Garcia) that can lead a team and get wins.

That said, I think devastate is too strong a word when it isn't referring to a drafted QB in the top 5. I look at when the Texans drafted Mario Williams and the Saints took Bush. Swap those picks out. Clearly, Houston has needed offensive playmakers to get anywhere in their division against the Colts. Defensive minded drafts have gotten them nowhere. The Saints had no problem rushing the ball before that draft and their offense is fairly explosive without Bush.

Imagine Bush along with Andre Johnson, and Schaub. That offense could easily rival the Colts and win all the shoot outs needed. Imagine Williams on Greg Lewis's defense. Granted the Saints won a Superbowl, but Bush wasn't that big of a factor. Williams would have had the defensive impact to maybe make it happen sooner, and maybe more often. Bush could have given the Texans the edge needed to topple the Colts.
Image
It's 106 miles to Chicago, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark... and we're wearing sunglasses.
Hit it.
Blank Yellow (NSFW)
"Mostly Harmless Nutcase"
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: 2011 NFL Draft

Post by Thanas »

I don't have that much to say except to add that I really like Mike Mayock's analysis. Unlike the other talking heads there, he actually comes across as somebody who takes this very seriously.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
User avatar
Havok
Miscreant
Posts: 13016
Joined: 2005-07-02 10:41pm
Location: Oakland CA
Contact:

Re: 2011 NFL Draft

Post by Havok »

He does. Another guy I like to listen to is Corey Chavous. Even when he was a player a couple years ago, he would come do the draft in the off season on NFL Network and he would have these GIANT binders that had info on fucking Obama's 40 time Vs George W.'s he was so thorough. :lol:

He started a website you may like. http://www.draftnasty.com/
Image
It's 106 miles to Chicago, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark... and we're wearing sunglasses.
Hit it.
Blank Yellow (NSFW)
"Mostly Harmless Nutcase"
User avatar
Elfdart
The Anti-Shep
Posts: 10653
Joined: 2004-04-28 11:32pm

Re: 2011 NFL Draft

Post by Elfdart »

Havok wrote:Ever since Jimmy Johnson instituted his draft pick value system in the early 90's and won three Superbowls, largely through the draft and Charles Haley, that has been the model pretty much every team uses.

It also forced a false value on draft picks that all the talking heads cling to like rats on a sinking ship.
It's another meaningless stat, like the 40-time. I was amused to see that the 40 Fetish was accidentally created by Paul Brown, who was looking to draft players with speed to play on special teams. The average punt was 40 yards and the desired hang time was 4-4.5 seconds. The idea was to have guys fast enough to cover the punt while the ball was in the air, or at least to give the return man as little time as possible before being tackled. Everyone latched onto the 40-time (If Paul Brown wants guys who run 40 in less than 4.5 seconds, he must be right!), but Brown gave up on it when too many of the fast guys he drafted for ST couldn't tackle.
I like guys like Mike Mayock on NFL Network that use that as a basis, but it isn't the be all end all of his analysis, like some.

The only thing that can devastate a franchise, and I think you are misquoting there a bit, is drafting badly in the top 5 in the first round because of the money you will be paying out and time lost.
That might be what they were getting at (top 5), but I've heard from many "experts" who insist that blowing it with 1st-rounders in general will set the team back for years, blah, blah, blah...

I look at the whole draft rather than focusing on Round 1, and the whole slate of players being brought in
rather than focusing on just the draft.
If you draft Jamarcus Russell, you are out 39 Million no matter what, plus his yearly salary, plus missing out on letting other QBs play (Jeff Garcia) that can lead a team and get wins.
I put THAT on coaches and management for putting draft status ahead of being ready to play. You brought up Jimmy Johnson, but when Troy Aikman (#1 overall) was stinking up the place his rookie year, Jimmy didn't hesitate to pull him and play another rookie (taken in the supplemental draft) in his place. Ability to play should always trump money and where they guy was picked.
That said, I think devastate is too strong a word when it isn't referring to a drafted QB in the top 5. I look at when the Texans drafted Mario Williams and the Saints took Bush. Swap those picks out. Clearly, Houston has needed offensive playmakers to get anywhere in their division against the Colts. Defensive minded drafts have gotten them nowhere. The Saints had no problem rushing the ball before that draft and their offense is fairly explosive without Bush.

Imagine Bush along with Andre Johnson, and Schaub. That offense could easily rival the Colts and win all the shoot outs needed. Imagine Williams on Greg Lewis's defense. Granted the Saints won a Superbowl, but Bush wasn't that big of a factor. Williams would have had the defensive impact to maybe make it happen sooner, and maybe more often. Bush could have given the Texans the edge needed to topple the Colts.
Mario Williams has been an excellent player on a team with a crap defense. The Texans' problem is that the other defensive players they've picked have sucked. The offense is outstanding -I mean Air Coryell/Greatest Show On Turf caliber: 6000 yards of offense in 2010. So what exactly is Reggie Bush going to add to that? The only thing noteworthy he's done since turning pro is boinking Kim Kardashian. He's injury prone and has fumbleitis. You'd swap what little pass rush the Texans have for a part-time 3rd down back?

I also don't care for the idea of going up against any QB when I can't pressure him, let alone Peyton Manning. The only way to beat him is to get pressure in his face.

Another reason it's better to have Super Mario than Reggie Bush.
Image
User avatar
Elfdart
The Anti-Shep
Posts: 10653
Joined: 2004-04-28 11:32pm

Re: 2011 NFL Draft

Post by Elfdart »

I found this article interesting:
West Coast Bias: NFL Draft Was A Reminder That USC, Kiffin Underachieved

Blog byTom Krasovic 2 hours ago

A belated West Coast Bias thank you goes out today to our friends in the NFL for confirming that USC wasn't suiting up only waterboys and team managers last fall.

Nine Trojans off coach Lane Kiffiin's team went in the NFL draft. Other than at quarterback -- where likely first-round draftee Matt Barkley will return for his junior season -- Coach Sneaky had a draft-worthy player at all six positional groups.

No other team put as much NFL draft talent on the field last year, if the recent draft is our guide. Pipe down North Carolina. A few of your nine draftees drafted spent the season in the NCAA clink.

From the tireless Oregon team that won the Pacific 10 and reached the national title game, the NFL took only one player: Casey Matthews in the fourth round. By then, three Trojans had been taken. Four players were chosen from Auburn's national championship team, although we count both Cam Newton and Nick Fairley as two apiece.


As USC fought on to five defeats in Kiffin's debut season, a recurring theme was that the Trojans had too little depth once the injuries struck, because they already were thinned by the reduced scholarships and transfers following NCAA sanctions for the Reggie Bush scandal.

I guess the NFL figured the nine Trojans draftees are extra tough, because they won eight games with so many stiffs as teammates.

You wonder how Oregon State managed to win a game with so many players who couldn't even get a phone call from USC. This just in from Corvallis: Oregon State 36, USC 7.
There's more, but it mostly involves slapping Lane Kiffin around. It is interesting how so-so college teams (UNC was nothing to write home about either) manage to produce a disproportionate amount of pro talent. When I was a kid it seemed like every other stud running back in the NFL came from Auburn -but Auburn was always an also-ran in the SEC.
Image
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: 2011 NFL Draft

Post by Thanas »

It might be that on bad teams, some good players start to stand out more? :?
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
User avatar
Hawkwings
Sith Devotee
Posts: 3372
Joined: 2005-01-28 09:30pm
Location: USC, LA, CA

Re: 2011 NFL Draft

Post by Hawkwings »

Well it helps that USC sells its program partially on "Hey kid, if you come to USC then you're going to play on Sundays!" and has the numbers to back it up. USC now has the most drafted players ever. And USC runs a pro-style system and has done so for many years, so that players "already know" how to play like in the NFL. While this may or may not be true, it definitely affects people's perceptions.
Vendetta wrote:Richard Gatling was a pioneer in US national healthcare. On discovering that most soldiers during the American Civil War were dying of disease rather than gunshots, he turned his mind to, rather than providing better sanitary conditions and medical care for troops, creating a machine to make sure they got shot faster.
User avatar
Elfdart
The Anti-Shep
Posts: 10653
Joined: 2004-04-28 11:32pm

Re: 2011 NFL Draft

Post by Elfdart »

That's certainly true. For many years just about anyone who had designs on playing QB in the pros avoided the SWC and Big 8 (now the Big 12) because none of those teams ran anything resembling a pro offense.
Image
User avatar
Master of Ossus
Darkest Knight
Posts: 18213
Joined: 2002-07-11 01:35am
Location: California

Re: 2011 NFL Draft

Post by Master of Ossus »

Thanas wrote:I don't have that much to say except to add that I really like Mike Mayock's analysis. Unlike the other talking heads there, he actually comes across as somebody who takes this very seriously.
Mayock's GOOD, too. His predictions on which players will pan out is much better than the other draft analysts.
"Sometimes I think you WANT us to fail." "Shut up, just shut up!" -Two Guys from Kabul

Latinum Star Recipient; Hacker's Cross Award Winner

"one soler flar can vapririze the planit or malt the nickl in lass than millasacit" -Bagara1000

"Happiness is just a Flaming Moe away."
User avatar
Elfdart
The Anti-Shep
Posts: 10653
Joined: 2004-04-28 11:32pm

Re: 2011 NFL Draft

Post by Elfdart »

He's right on a more consistent basis, too. Mel Kiper is very right when he's right -and when he's wrong he's VERY wrong (preferring Enis to Tomlinson, for example).
Image
User avatar
Havok
Miscreant
Posts: 13016
Joined: 2005-07-02 10:41pm
Location: Oakland CA
Contact:

Re: 2011 NFL Draft

Post by Havok »

Ugh. I fucking hate Kiper. He is just a tool.

I wish NFL Network would scoop up Boomer, TJ, Young and Schlereth just so I never had to watch ESPN or dick heads like Kiper ever again.
Image
It's 106 miles to Chicago, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark... and we're wearing sunglasses.
Hit it.
Blank Yellow (NSFW)
"Mostly Harmless Nutcase"
User avatar
Elfdart
The Anti-Shep
Posts: 10653
Joined: 2004-04-28 11:32pm

Re: 2011 NFL Draft

Post by Elfdart »

I always wondered what his qualifications were. AFAIK he never played or coached (he's been on ESPN for almost 25 years) and never worked in a front office anywhere. My best guess is that he's good at schmoozing with various front office people who don't want to go on record.

I can still remember when he got his panties in a bunch when the Jets took Jeff Lageman, a decent D-lineman, but nothing to write home about. He acted as though the Jets had screwed the pooch balls deep.
Image
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: 2011 NFL Draft

Post by Thanas »

Lovely, another court ruling in favor of the owners. If this does not get solved soon, there won't be a season....


Oh, and the raiders...anybody else thinking they'll be in huge trouble next year? With Nmandi gone, their QBs (both of them) not being that great...and the only position they really upgraded was the O-line, where they want to switch their top pick from guard to center....
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
erik_t
Jedi Master
Posts: 1108
Joined: 2008-10-21 08:35pm

Re: 2011 NFL Draft

Post by erik_t »

It's recently been observed that, if the season does not happen, all of the lofty and high-minded* NFL advertising (and commesurate outrageous TV stoppage) will shift over to college ball.

I have never been more in favor of a lockout resolution.




*come on you don't need a footnote
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: 2011 NFL Draft

Post by Thanas »

That would be great if I in any way care about college football as it sure as heck will not get broadcasted in Germany. :(
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
erik_t
Jedi Master
Posts: 1108
Joined: 2008-10-21 08:35pm

Re: 2011 NFL Draft

Post by erik_t »

Sorry. There might be an answer, but if there is then I don't know it.
User avatar
Darth Fanboy
DUH! WINNING!
Posts: 11182
Joined: 2002-09-20 05:25am
Location: Mars, where I am a totally bitchin' rockstar.

Re: 2011 NFL Draft

Post by Darth Fanboy »

Havok wrote:Ugh. I fucking hate Kiper. He is just a tool.

I wish NFL Network would scoop up Boomer, TJ, Young and Schlereth just so I never had to watch ESPN orIf he dick heads like Kiper ever again.
Don't say anything nice about Chris Berman, he is the most overrated piece of stool on TV.
"If it's true that our species is alone in the universe, then I'd have to say that the universe aimed rather low and settled for very little."
-George Carlin (1937-2008)

"Have some of you Americans actually seen Football? Of course there are 0-0 draws but that doesn't make them any less exciting."
-Dr Roberts, with quite possibly the dumbest thing ever said in 10 years of SDNet.
User avatar
Havok
Miscreant
Posts: 13016
Joined: 2005-07-02 10:41pm
Location: Oakland CA
Contact:

Re: 2011 NFL Draft

Post by Havok »

Thanas wrote:Lovely, another court ruling in favor of the owners. If this does not get solved soon, there won't be a season....


Oh, and the raiders...anybody else thinking they'll be in huge trouble next year? With Nmandi gone, their QBs (both of them) not being that great...and the only position they really upgraded was the O-line, where they want to switch their top pick from guard to center....
Surprisingly, the Raiders, outside of Nnamdi, may be one of the teams that are better off than everyone else.

For the first time in, like, ever, Jason Campbell will be in the same offense for two years in a row. It is also a fairly uncomplicated system. They have a strong running game, and if they actually did upgrade the line as far as pass blocking, their receivers will have the time they need to get down field so Campbell can throw the bombs Davis loves.

On defense: "Hey cover him man to man." "OK coach." You can either do it or you can't. Zone you teach. Man to Man, you just kinda have.
Image
It's 106 miles to Chicago, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark... and we're wearing sunglasses.
Hit it.
Blank Yellow (NSFW)
"Mostly Harmless Nutcase"
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: 2011 NFL Draft

Post by Thanas »

Thanas wrote: Of all the players picked, not one (with the *possible* exception of McPhee) was a pass rusher. Although Suggs needs some help on the other side. Free Agency also does not look hopeful with regard to that problem. Yes, drafting Smith also helps our pass rush indirectly, but I wonder if there were simply no good pass rushers available at the picks......which I doubt. If the Ravens felt a pressing need, they would have acted there. My personal crazy theory goes: During the brief period on which the lockout got lifted, the Ravens rushed to contact Sergio Kindle and confirmed he was cleared. It makes sense - if Kindle can play, that would mean the need for pass rushers just got that much smaller.
Called it.
“I got cleared to play again in March,” Kindle told Dan McCarney of the San Antonio Express-News. “So I have to get back into it and see how it goes from there. Of course, I got cleared, but until I actually do contact, that’s what’s going to determine [my progress].”
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
User avatar
Elfdart
The Anti-Shep
Posts: 10653
Joined: 2004-04-28 11:32pm

Re: 2011 NFL Draft

Post by Elfdart »

So is he a DE or OLB for the Ravens?
Image
Post Reply