SD.Net goes Medieval

[Darth Fanboy]

Shit I did not see that Edit. 24 hours is enough time to empty my bank account and obtain some weaponry, maps, a tent, and as much of that instant ramen self heating yuck for an emergency.

[LaCroix]

Fuck! big essay, all gone due to some page refresh... *grinds teeth*

Ok, short version again.

We have a head start with all those guns and ammo we will surely bring. we also will certainly have a lot of books.

But ammo won't last forever, thus we will have to act rapidly.

So, we have to make defences and weapons. I would train Bowmakers and Fletchers, to get us archers and could train cavallery.

Archers were nearly unknown at this time in warfare, so we have a great advantage if we could use them in masses, first killing their archers with our guns, an then use our archers against their foot soldiers to save ammo. We use guns on those only if our archers are insufficient for the task, safing ammo.

Cavallery would help a lot killing the fleeing survivors, keeping our existance and tactics as secret as possible and improving our aura of invincibility. If noone returns, we will have a much more demoralized enemy, and a tactical advantage. If some escape it doesen't matter, but everyone must be frightened to death at the simple thought of opposing us.
Real cavallery will make a big difference, these times units rode to battle, but fought on foot.
Also, the use of metal armor was not usual, making our enemies vulnerable. Most were just townsfolk pressed into service. Poor boys..

Walls and Trebuchets, catapults, giant crossbows and later, cannons will be needed to secure our stronghold.

We should also advance the local population, offering them our protection in exchange for their food production, AND give them better rights and lifestyle then before, thus "winning hearts". We also need their daughters, for obvious reasons *scans memberlist for gender*.

If there are people with medical knowledge with us (I suppose), they will have to share their knowledge fsast and with as many people possibe. Chemical and scientific knowledged people will also have to be protected and must share their knowledge fast.
Books have to be copied and written! We must avoid loosing knowledge.
Deaths will occur and we must be prepared.

Many of us with knowledge in blacksmithing will be needed to start production of tools and weapons, its most crucial since we need steel to build an infrastructure for all our other knowledge. Steam engines will have to be constructed fast to replace manual or waterwheel labor in iron manufacture. Sewer systems must be constructed and water purifying (if only big destillation pots, catching the vapour.).

Our most valued geological members will train people to find ressources.
Charcoal and wood must me gathered.

We have a lot of knowledge about technic, but our historical knowledge gives us a nearly bigger edge. We know about coming invasions of huns and mongols, and we know about hygene, and therefore can cancel the dangers of most plagues. We also know treatments and will be able to bring our medicine up to standards rather fast if we get the economy going. (But some of our members will not like it, since we will have to have a planned economy without market until we can start a real democracy. )

[LaCroix]

Also, we are 4000!!
Most kings would be pleased if they had several hundreds in their towns, big armies consisted of several dozen to few hundred men!

[Exmoor Cat]

Slight error on the cavalry stuff - for starters, the Franks were using extra heavy cavalry with stirrups having learned from the Ummayyads at the Battles of Toulouse and re-used thei captured equipment at Tours under Charles Martel.

ECH were also parts of the Byzantine and various Arab armies at this point, as were light horse archers who would swarm and refuse flanks.

[LaCroix]

Right, I concede on that.

Back on topic:
They had, but it was irrelevant.

Martell had some, but they were few in numbers. The time of big cavallery battles in central europe was definately much later.
Also, we are not that important, the avars and later the Magyars were keeping them busy, thats why we should keep low profile as long as possible. (And watch out for magyar raiders and eventually the occasional vikings)

Byzanz is not a short term enemy, but if we get to "play" with them, we will surely already be a big player in europe, given our starting point.

Our immediate enemies are the sourrounding landlords keen on our equipment, and those won't have much access to that "hightech-equipment" of martell.

By the time we get noticed by the "big" players, we should have things going, and after all, we already know how to counter heavy cavallry (pikes&archers anyone? and we will certainly save some rounds for that occasions.)

[weemadando]

What part of South France? Some of those could give us very reliable springwater (if a tad on the chalky side) and excellent defensible positions not to mention an abundance of soft, quarryable rock to go with our forest and river.

[Darth Wong]

Why are we even assuming any sort of unity at all? The board's population is made up mostly of teenagers, who are notoriously unreliable. Worse yet, there is no guarantee that anyone will respect any sort of chain of command. I would expect rapid devolution into anarchy.

[Exmoor Cat]

Martel only took five years to use an effective EH cavalry element - see wiki on that. By 735, he was well-versed in using them in battle, and by this point 15 years later, it would have been a strong element of his army. Charlemagne went on in the 770s to have a core elite of heavy cavalry.

South France wasn't having many if any problems from the Magyars at this point, they were still in the Steppes. Any raiders from the East would be Lombards or Ottonians, possibly even Avars.

Main problem would be from The emerging Carolingians under Pippin, Carloman and the Charlemagne. They would more than likely try negotiation and trade, rather than all out war, but would definately want the technology andk nowledge we'd have - the 1632 series of alternative history paralells this discussion. We'd either have to side with the Franks or with the Aquitanians in revolt against them.

Our presence in South France would be seen as a useful rampart, keeping the Umayyads bottled up on the Iberian peninsula, so that the Franks can turn around and use even more of their trops in attacking East - probably bringing Charlemagnes achievements to fruition even earleir.

Our presence there would also act as a bulwark against the naval invasions and raids by the Muslims - remember, a large chunk of the area around Arles, Aix and Avignon was still muslim. Narbonne did not fall to Christians until 759.

[Exmoor Cat]

Why are we even assuming any sort of unity at all? The board's population is made up mostly of teenagers, who are notoriously unreliable. Worse yet, there is no guarantee that anyone will respect any sort of chain of command. I would expect rapid devolution into anarchy.

Very true, TBH, I'd probably sod off to either the Frankish or Byzantine courts.

[Stravo]

I'm sorry, but am I seeing things about a board full of 21st century 1st worlders suddenly becoming cavalrymen and archers and some sort of organized army during a period in time where there is no electricity, running water, sanitation? Yeah, Ok. I believe for a second we can pull something like that off.

Let's face it, most of us will be crying like bitches the first time a local lord sends a force of knights or men at arms to investigate the goings on in this town or when a band of brigands shows up to take some of our stuff.

I like to indulge in flights of fancy about my prowess and abilities every now and then but they usually involves sex or how great I am in the office not believing for a moment that I could become a heavy cavalry man or fight off professional warriors backed by a royal/national infrastructure without even being able to speak the language while fending off disease, starvation and sickness.

I know its rather killjoyish in regards to the thread's intention but I'm in that kind of mood.

PS - and speaking of sex how long before the fact that we have 4000 members and maybe 10 of them are women is it going to cause in fighting or worse?

[Exmoor Cat]

I think the main issue will be Frankish expansion south, Muslim raiding, and dodging a papal bull calling for a crusade a la Cathar heresy. Other issues will be technology spread dissipating the advantage, disease (plague anyone?) and sustainable food and water supply.

[Darth Wong]

Just to put this in perspective, even a modern farmer wouldn't know how to be a farmer in 750 AD. And our skill set is weighted heavily toward young computer experts; fat lot of good that'll do us.

[General Zod]

Also, we are 4000!!
Most kings would be pleased if they had several hundreds in their towns, big armies consisted of several dozen to few hundred men!

Um, no. Look at the membership numbers again. Try less than 2500, maybe 500 of which post on a regular basis.

Edit: Shit, I guess we do have nearly 4000. When the fuck did it explode to that many?

[Exmoor Cat]

Just to put this in perspective, even a modern farmer wouldn't know how to be a farmer in 750 AD. And our skill set is weighted heavily toward young computer experts; fat lot of good that'll do us.

On what basis? Apart from a reduced amount of crop types and quality, as well as a higher casualty rate in animals, most principles haven't changed, and with a better understanding of the biology involved, and some of the processes that won't involve mechanisation (e.g. understanding of crop rotation, fertilisation and mendelian genetics) improvements would occur.

Plus, I'm not writing off the skill set either, at least osme of us have had practical hands on food-growing experience.

[Lonestar]

Why are we even assuming any sort of unity at all? The board's population is made up mostly of teenagers, who are notoriously unreliable. Worse yet, there is no guarantee that anyone will respect any sort of chain of command. I would expect rapid devolution into anarchy.

Don't worry Rob(Wilson) will take command and probably start killing people until the rest of us get the idea.


Looks like I'm going to be putting that hot "Armed Security Force" training to use. Someone like Alyeska will have to bring all his rifles...all I have is a HK .45 that I inherited from my Uncle...only fired it on 5 different trips to the range, but the principle is the same as a 9mm.

[Ghost Rider]

Just to put this in perspective, even a modern farmer wouldn't know how to be a farmer in 750 AD. And our skill set is weighted heavily toward young computer experts; fat lot of good that'll do us.

On what basis? Apart from a reduced amount of crop types and quality, as well as a higher casualty rate in animals, most principles haven't changed, and with a better understanding of the biology involved, and some of the processes that won't involve mechanisation (e.g. understanding of crop rotation, fertilisation and mendelian genetics) improvements would occur.

Plus, I'm not writing off the skill set either, at least osme of us have had practical hands on food-growing experience.

So here who knows where to farm, how to get some efficency for a colony of 4000+ people? I want a some show of hands of anyone who has the knowledge to know how to harvest without any shiny machines, on a level beyond backyard gardening.

Literally the best we are going to be at is killing, and more then 90% will likely have no experience in that area.

[KrauserKrauser]

If there were even further updates to the RAR, which allowed for a coordination period of ~24 hours where the active posters and lurking memebers were given time to organize on a magical mega post that they always can see and post to, we still wouldn't be able have much of a chance.

We could, however, if nothing else introduce large amounts of agricultural products unheard of on the continent for hundreds of years. Potato, Tomato, Orange, Cocoa Bean, Sugar Cane, Banana, Apple, Peach, Nutmeg, Garlic, Ginger, Soy Beans, Rice, Sweet Potato, Mango, Pineapple, Seaweed, Bok Choy, Vanilla, the list goes on and on of what, if given the 24 hour period, we could introduce into the continent. We don't even have to worry about using medival strains as we would be able to bring along significant amounts of modern strains to use in 750.

The main thing that stymied the growth of historical Europe, aside from the rest of the world constantly invading it, was the lack of the iron plow brought over from china in the 1400's. The simple addition of a curve to the already existing iron plows would go on to increase the productivity of European agriculture in sucha great degree that the Renassaince, etc. were now possible. A simple metalurgical instruction book detailing just how to make this would be a technological trade good that we could use to barter.

Defense of the village would be relatively simple to accomplish with the supplies that we could bring along. Tying a hunting rifle or two to the backpack along with a couple cases of ammo per person would give us a significant defense from curious Lords. Though if they wanted they could simply swarm us and if ntohing else burn our village down with flaming arrows. Best to just swear fealty to a local lord and try to avoid attention until we are better established. I wanted to suggest making our own shotgun ammo, but plastic casings, firing mechanisms etc makes me think that would not work out in teh end. Might as well assume a limited supply of ammo that we would not be able to increase. If they ever tried to meet us in open battle, we could simply yell out, "Surrender or we will have God smite your leader dead." They say no, and we have the multiple marksmen on teh board blow his head off while he is laughing at us. jUst pick off the leaders and offer a better way to the remaining rabble. Works if you can kill enough of the leaders from far enough away.

Power, especially in Medival Europe was not only found by the sword. The fact that we could take the local ingredients and turn into food the likes of which the surrounding villages would never see for ceenturies would gain us enough noteriety to gather some influence in the area. The potato, tomato, onion, garlic, wtc give us a variety of relatively easily grown vegetables that we would be able to use to gain influence and increase our chances of survival. Bringing large amounts of Gold Bullioun could easily protect us for the most part by being able to buy off the local lords as well as hopefully the Pope at the time.

Surviving the winter would be key. If given three season to prepare, we should be able to do it with rudimentary knowledge of smoking to cure the meat and an ample amount of grazing area to gather hay for the livestock. I honestly don't know how much innovation there has been in animal husbandry since 750, but the fundamentals would be about the best I think we would be able to manage.

Sanitation and dealing with the water in the area would be a problem. A historical text dealing with roman sewage systems could be useful in finding low tech ways of dealing with sewage, though we would lack the slave labor that much of the roman infrastructure was constructed with. If nothing else dig a bunch of holes in the ground downwind of the village. We are probably going to have to boil all the water needed for drinking and will have to adopt very smelly habits as showering/bathing would be an extreme indulgence.

[LaCroix]

Right, we have teenagers among us (ok, most of us are..)

I assumed them (and all of us without practical knowledge) to get carpenters, blacksmiths, workers.

But maybe I went to far with the assumption that everybody is clear in mind that he has the best chance to survive in our group, where he

1. speaks the language
2. will not be killed at the spot for looking strange and being an outsider without langage knowledge
3. will be protected by firearms
4. REAL medicine is available
5. a progress to at least endureable standards of living is possible in a rather short time.

Running away and not working together will result in

Death by starvation
Dearth by disease
Death by other peaple afraid of you

I don't like those alternatives.


Second, I used archers as example since it has following advantages.

1 We save some ammo for the guns we brought with us (we still need them for worthy targets.)
2. its rather easy to learn to shower the enemy in arrows
3. we have a little distance, thus the casualities are lower

Its far more easy to fight with a bow. I expect most of us to be worthless in a mano-a-mano confrontation with any medieval fighter. We lack the nerves. so ranged weapons are our choice, and we have to build an arsenal fast.

Second, I didn't elaborate my stance on cavallery right.. I ment US-Cavallery like in the post indian wars time. Mounted gunslingers. using bows on horses is awful hard, that cant be learned that fast. and we must try to stay clear from mounted archers and snipe them with rifles, their range is better than that of handguns.

There are surely a lot of riders in this board. Even if we get only a few of them, arming them with guns as fast intervention troop. Also, we need scouting. Horses are essential for our survival, therefore we all must learn rather fast to handle them in one way or another. Knowing that, all people knowing how to ride must give lessons!

[Shroom Man 777]

Fuck that, I'm gonna do whatever it takes to survive. I'm gonna go with the chain of command.

Anyway, we're a diverse bunch who can't speak the native tongue - we'll be seen as foreigners, heathens, spies, and probably be killed.

The most reasonable thing to do, in my opinion, is to stock up on guns before our temporal distortion and go to the richest king of Asia or Europe or whatever medieval shithole we're in and offer ourselves as some kind of mercenary army.

[KrauserKrauser]

The idea that we can manufacture guns is pretty absurd. The infrastructure to make even a basic musket is nowhere near in place. With respect to guns we will probably have an extremely limited suppy, and ammo would run out if we were to be any sort of hired army.

Self defense and possibly hunting would be the only viable option for our guns unless we wanted to end up with useless bludgeoning weapons very quickly.

If we could bring along some bicycles along with tire pumps I'm sure we could do something with that. If nothing else it gives a large supply of refined metals do toy around with.

Crank powered lights would be extremely helpful, along with the myriad other handpowered electric devices that we could bring along.

[Exmoor Cat]

This is all going so Frank Chadwick.......

@ LaCroix and others mentioning the language problem - I'd have thought that out of our motley crew we'd find a handful of latin speakers/Catholics, even if it's small amounts that will get a priest running to find out why these strange tall people (average height in our favour) are spouting the Mass at them.

@ Ghost Rider and others considering the food problem - a quarter acre is enough for a family to subsist on year-round. So we'd need about 1000 acres min, and preferably 2-4000 acres to be safe. Crop rotation was in existence in this period, but with refinement, will improve. The comment about the iron plough is valid. Acquisition of sustainable breeding stocks for food an burden animals is a must though. It's a sad comment on SDnet if no-one else can grow food. I for one can, and it is actually a personal goal to have my own farm. If we do bring enough modern strains, then nurturing them will generate a superior amount of food, and if concentrated on, become a key money spinner for trade.

Sanitation - basic systems have been functional and effective for centuries and still work very well today, human waste decomposes down to about 4-8% of initial bulk and is a VERY effective fertiliser. Flush through WCs are the most inefficient way to remove waste, the water is only there to cut down on the smell.

Medicine - our knowledge of self-hygeine, as well as things like the abiltiy to grow penecillin (though if you're ill, be prepared to eat a LOT of mouldy cheese ), basic first aid and so on will also maintain a more robust population. The fresh air and less processed food will probably do a lot of our mob the world of good.

Combat - there will be a fight with someone at some point. Probably best to organise a standing patrol or three, on horseback, with a milita system for the rest of it.

[Exmoor Cat]

Water supply - absolutely critical. Could possibly set up evaporation:condensation units - heat sources diverted to boiling too much would rapidly use up local wood supplies. Access to a river can see possibilities for a leat and watermill system.

[Knife]

Hmmm, I've seen this concept before. LOL

Couple things; 750ad should be pretty basic, which does not bode well for us. We could improve a lot of the village for our standards and yet the infrastructure to do so would not be there. We would be consumed in the fist five or ten years just to stablize our food and water supply and perhaps basic modifications to the village/fort.

Also, four thousand people is a shit ton of people in a village and a shit load to feed. Desease set aside, the black death would be kind on our numbers in the first few years.

That said, and in the spirit of the thread; once some of the above issues are settled, the remaining people could start a phuedo-Romanization of the village. Aquaducts perhaps, atleast water storage with perhaps the ability to boil the water in centralized locations before distrabution. If not, then central distrabution with every 'house' able to boil it themselves. Perhaps Roman style baths and sewers to take care of basic hygeine, though not to the high degree, but something along those lines. Public restrooms with channels or ditches leading out of hte comunity using the ass end of the water system to push it out.

For defense, the crossbow would be far superior for our needs than actual bows. Archary takes years to develope, a few hours a week with a crossbow could match, if not actual range. Onagers for a punch I suppose if needed, for you gunpoweder nuts out there. In extreme emergencies, the mighty tree cannon might suit, though I don't want to be the one firing it.

For larger defense, go with the phalanx/pikeman. I don't see the need to train everyone with a sword, rather disiplined ranks to repel horsemen with crossbow support. If you HAD to train with melee weapons, short swords or even a damn axe for last ditch weapons. Limited calvary too, we'll have enough problems feeding our people let alone thousands of hourses.

Could we survive? If 'we' is four thousand, no. If we pulled together and gutted it, some of us would survive and perhaps lay a foundation for a better village for our children (after we raid for women).

[Exmoor Cat]

Okay, lets play it from another angle, what skills do we have that REALISTICALLY can be useful in this scenario?

e.g. me - history nut, has a basic understanding of how things were and worked at the time, aware of the politics of the era.

Have a basic understanding of farming and plant growing from family background of allottments and involvement in local farming community. Associated with this is my degree in development geography, so can translate ideas on intermediate and sustainable technologies in the third world to the scenario at hand.

Have a militaristic background in terms of tactics and weaponry - also a reservist.

I also am a brewer, I make mead in preference, but can brew other stuff (ideal for community consumption and also selling), I also know how to make modern beehives and farm the honey (honey, wax, mead).

[LaCroix]

history nut, but with some gaping holes in it, as you proved before

Bowmaking and fletching, archery
Horseriding instructor
Horsekeeping
Blacksmith (mostly basics, but I can make most stuff we need to some extent, I also know how to make charcoal retorts and how to refine ore, once it is found *cogh*cewie*cough*)
Some martial arts