Re: The german wehrmacht in Modern America (RAR!)
Posted: 2014-10-28 08:26am
Also, the German Army had it's own share of doctors. You'd think that some of them would understand the danger behind the vault doors.
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I'm not talking "Stand behind them with guns pointed to their heads" hostages, I'm talking "imprisoned populous in large, secure, existing local facilities (schools, hospitals, offices) housed alongside their weapons and troops" hostages. Which may not have happened directly, but we're assuming the Germans know they're going into this with some foresight. Logistically, it makes sense to put all the citizenry into as few facilities as possible; and storing your stuff in those facilities when you know that your enemy won't readily target their own citizens makes some sense.Patroklos wrote:Were the Germans particularly known for using human shields in real life? No, and that's with the really hard corps Nazis included.
Can we please stop with the mushtashe twirling villian thing? We actually know who these people are and what they were willing to do in the most desperate of circumstances. If people with the fanaticism and lack of scruples of Nazis, like actual NAZIS, didn't do it then they are not going to do it now in less dire circumstances.
I will take a company of well-trained infantry with 1940s rifles and machineguns over a motley collection of rednecks and beat cops any day. Even SWAT teams are only trained in certain kinds of enforcement scenarios; they're not a military unit and are woefully unprepared for an actual infantry firefight - nevermind that aforementioned infantry company has more than just its rifles and machineguns, it has organic mortars and attached assaults guns and artillery to back it up.Me2005 wrote:1) While rifles are rifles, I believe modern weapons that even civilians in the US have access to are more accurate and faster firing than the rank-and-file German equipment. Every civilian and cop with a gun likely has a semi-auto, in the historical scenario, only a few units have something better than bolt-action rifles. Obviously they have machine guns as well, but unemplaced troops are at more of a disadvantage in individual engagements I'd think. That is, until the Germans raid a few police armories and take their AR-15s and civilian stores for whatever semi-autos they can scrounge.
Fair enough. Does the modern unit out range the Germans significantly? Does it matter with the numbers advantage they've got?Brother-Captain Gaius wrote:A National Guard or Army unit will have slightly better equipment, slightly more evolved doctrine (taking advantage of things like organic grenade launchers and better communications), and a huge advantage in mechanization and in an anti-tank/anti-air role, but infantry for infantry the Germans at least have a fighting chance because a rifle is still a rifle and a hail of bullets from a machinegun will still pin you down.
This makes relatively little practical difference. The well armed civilians are still (mostly) uncoordinated individuals with no combat training fighting vast numbers of well-trained infantrymen (also millions of poorly trained and half-equipped Volkssturm, but whatever).Me2005 wrote:This scenario is so ridiculous and awesome.
A few things for now that I didn't see in 14 pages of thread:
1) While rifles are rifles, I believe modern weapons that even civilians in the US have access to are more accurate and faster firing than the rank-and-file German equipment. Every civilian and cop with a gun likely has a semi-auto, in the historical scenario, only a few units have something better than bolt-action rifles. Obviously they have machine guns as well, but unemplaced troops are at more of a disadvantage in individual engagements I'd think. That is, until the Germans raid a few police armories and take their AR-15s and civilian stores for whatever semi-autos they can scrounge.
The main advantage is in protection against shrapnel, but that advantage isn't all that decisive. It basically means fewer soldiers get killed by random artillery shells landing fifty or a hundred meters away, or by grenade fragments ricocheting around a corner... but a lot of soldiers still get wounded by these means, and on the time-scale of this campaign wounded men are out of the picture for the duration.2) I'm not 100% sure on how the high-caliber historical weapons used by the Germans would effect modern Kevlar armor worn by all police and soldiers. But when even our civilian forces have armor that allows us to potentially survive being shot, it gives us an edge in individual engagements again (obviously not beneficial for anyone that draws on the initial 20 million man march though).
This was repeatedly addressed.3) +/-20 million soldiers will take up a ton of space. With all the equipment, machinery, and supplies, I'd give them no less than 100 sq.ft per person. That's 2 billion sq.ft., or a little over 71 square miles. Atlanta proper looks to be about 7 square miles. Google appears to show the metro area as 132 square miles; with buildings and etc. they very likely de facto occupy it from hour 0, as dozens of German troops and a tank pour into every building immediately.
If there are tens of millions of them swarming all over the place, and uncountable thousands of planes, the US military is going to react and not take it as a joke. Moreover, there will be huge swarms of cell phone calls and tweets and e-mails going "OH MY GOD THERE ARE NAZIS EVERYWHERE" from the Atlanta area, providing further confirmation that this is no shit.4) I also don't see this as being as-quickly reacted to as most of you are assuming. While any of us could identify a historical German military unit, how many could know for sure it was here as an act of war? If a bunch of Union soldiers showed up in your local park, would you automatically assume they were there to conquer your town? The Germans, if they've had sufficient pre-planning, are going to be spreading out through the city and surrounding area, capturing it without firing a shot. The real national understanding that this is a problem(TM) won't come until well after they've seized the city, as initial images and reports will be to ludicrous to believe.
Well, that hinges on the actual preparation state of the US forces, and whether most US combat aircraft can be loaded and gotten into the air on several hours' notice.Even once the air units are detected, a few fighters are all that are likely to be scrambled. It'll only be once they make contact and radio in that yes, this is a problem(TM), that preparations will begin to be made beyond the 'at-the-ready' units we have on hand.
This was repeatedly addressed. The basic problem is that unless the Germans can somehow convince the US to ship four times more food into the Atlanta area than they normally would, then everyone in the Atlanta area is going to begin to starve within a few weeks. Even stealing ALL the civilians' food won't help indefinitely, because there's still the basic problem of feeding 28 million people in an area that used to hold only seven million.5) I'm assuming from Zor's comments that they are prepared for this campaign, have an intelligent plan, and won't do anything outlandishly stupid or suicidal. They'll go for nearby tactical and military assets, decimate targets they can reach but can't expect to capture, and hunker down; putting the citizens of Atlanta into prison camps housed with their stores and barracks, for use as hostages and insurance against attacks. That said, they could still be nuked on day 1-2 and the battle would largely be over. If the people in charge could bring themselves to do such a thing without public backlash, it'd be the short route to victory.
Not really relevant to the main scenario, as 12 million men under arms with decent training is still that, but this is somewhat incorrect--8mm mauser, .308, and 7.62 Russian are all in the same ballpark, but they're actually very stoppable by modern body armor. Most police issue class IIIa will not stop them, as its only rated to stop up to .44 mag, and won't even stop 7.62x39, but basic Class III hard armor plates are actually defined by being able to stop multiple hits of .308 FMJ ball, while class IV is armor that can stop .30-06 (again, roughly in the same power level to a bit higher) shooting steel core WWII era AP ammo for at least one shot. So if police SWAT is issued hard armor, they should be able to take at least an odd round here and there, and IIRC, modern US army body armor is about midway between class III and class IV (they defined it a bit higher to stop fragments).Purple wrote:As far as penetration 7.92x57mm Mauser is equivalent to 7.62x51 OTAN and 7.62x54R. It is going to go through most body armor as if it were not there. And 7.62x33 (the stuff used for the StG 44) is basically equivalent to a slightly worse version of 7.62x39mm. As in the round used for the AKM. So they are far from outgunned in that respect.
Do note that "stop" under these conditions merely refers to preventing lethal penetration. You still would not want to be the one behind those plates. If a soldier gets hit by a 7.92 he is going down. With proper armor he might not die. But he is still out of the conflict for all intents and purposes.Vejut wrote:Not really relevant to the main scenario, as 12 million men under arms with decent training is still that, but this is somewhat incorrect--8mm mauser, .308, and 7.62 Russian are all in the same ballpark, but they're actually very stoppable by modern body armor. Most police issue class IIIa will not stop them, as its only rated to stop up to .44 mag, and won't even stop 7.62x39, but basic Class III hard armor plates are actually defined by being able to stop multiple hits of .308 FMJ ball, while class IV is armor that can stop .30-06 (again, roughly in the same power level to a bit higher) shooting steel core WWII era AP ammo for at least one shot. So if police SWAT is issued hard armor, they should be able to take at least an odd round here and there, and IIRC, modern US army body armor is about midway between class III and class IV (they defined it a bit higher to stop fragments).
Yes, but I don't think anyone put the numbers down. Without putting anyone/thing in or on a building to start, you'd have men and equipment packed into every street and park in and around Atlanta and all of its suburbs upon their arrival. If they show up early in the morning, before anyone is really awake or there is any traffic, they could capture the city before anyone even gets a chance to take a picture by virtue of appearing on their doorstep.Simon_Jester wrote:This was repeatedly addressed.3) +/-20 million soldiers will take up a ton of space. With all the equipment, machinery, and supplies, I'd give them no less than 100 sq.ft per person. That's 2 billion sq.ft., or a little over 71 square miles. Atlanta proper looks to be about 7 square miles. Google appears to show the metro area as 132 square miles; with buildings and etc. they very likely de facto occupy it from hour 0, as dozens of German troops and a tank pour into every building immediately.
If no one is even awake before they start streaming into every house, what is anyone going to do? Maybe call 911, but even the 911 call center is likely to get taken. And besides, even if they were there in the middle of the day, how many people on the street would automatically assume a large group of people walking around in random military dress with guns are Nazis, and not just part of some huge convention they didn't know about? How many would just start shooting them, especially if they're mostly walking around and not shooting civilians wholesale?Simon_Jester wrote:If there are tens of millions of them swarming all over the place, and uncountable thousands of planes, the US military is going to react and not take it as a joke. Moreover, there will be huge swarms of cell phone calls and tweets and e-mails going "OH MY GOD THERE ARE NAZIS EVERYWHERE" from the Atlanta area, providing further confirmation that this is no shit.4) I also don't see this as being as-quickly reacted to as most of you are assuming. ...
Yes, and I'm assuming that we don't keep many squadrons of aircraft armed and at the ready at all times. We're not at war where being invaded by armies is a possibility; we don't have the capacity to turn around and fight one that just shows up unannounced within our boarders in just hours. A few days or weeks and sure, we could do more. This would be totally unprecedented, at absolute worst you'd have at least a day to prepare and that force would come from outside our boarders by air (or Mexico/Canada by ground). Even that is crazy unlikely, we'd notice someone gearing up a 20-million man army and make appropriate preparations ourselves.Simon_Jester wrote:Well, that hinges on the actual preparation state of the US forces, and whether most US combat aircraft can be loaded and gotten into the air on several hours' notice.Even once the air units are detected, a few fighters are all that are likely to be scrambled. It'll only be once they make contact and radio in that yes, this is a problem(TM), that preparations will begin to be made beyond the 'at-the-ready' units we have on hand.
Zor said they were prepared, so I'd assume they've got food for at least a couple months. If they get besieged right away, they could probably stretch that to last much longer.Simon_Jester wrote:This was repeatedly addressed. The basic problem is that unless the Germans can somehow convince the US to ship four times more food into the Atlanta area than they normally would, then everyone in the Atlanta area is going to begin to starve within a few weeks. Even stealing ALL the civilians' food won't help indefinitely, because there's still the basic problem of feeding 28 million people in an area that used to hold only seven million.5) I'm assuming from Zor's comments that they are prepared for this campaign, have an intelligent plan, and won't do anything outlandishly stupid or suicidal. ...
And this is the kind of strategy I think they'd see failing in advance. What good is taking a city and holding it? They'll take it and hold it, but with only a portion of their army and dug in very well. Once they round up the population and start loading them into field prisons, most of the army could be on the move. 90% could leave and they'd still be 2 million occupiers to finish fortifying/securing locations, moving artillery and AA equipment, requisition supplies, and guard the populous. And again, if this happened early, there wouldn't be much traffic in the way on the roads before the army started rolling out to other targets.Simon_Jester wrote:Now, the Germans can say "if you don't give us the food you're STARVING YOUR OWN PEOPLE!" but the sensible reply is "If you hold out long enough that our civilians start dropping dead of malnutrition, we'll kill you all out of hand."
At some point the Germans are going to realize "welp, we're fucked," and the Fortress Atlanta strategy does literally nothing for them except prolong their inevitable surrender.
Dude, not only did I do the numbers for the aircraft I created a visual of the physical space the three Luftwaffe airframes alone would take up. Read the thread!Me2005 wrote: Yes, but I don't think anyone put the numbers down. Without putting anyone/thing in or on a building to start, you'd have men and equipment packed into every street and park in and around Atlanta and all of its suburbs upon their arrival. If they show up early in the morning, before anyone is really awake or there is any traffic, they could capture the city before anyone even gets a chance to take a picture by virtue of appearing on their doorstep.
Yeah, that huge Nazi convention of millions. Talk about a flash mob idea from hell. Oh yeah, and they also have millions of mint condition historic military vehicles and they all speak in German and nothing else.If no one is even awake before they start streaming into every house, what is anyone going to do? Maybe call 911, but even the 911 call center is likely to get taken. And besides, even if they were there in the middle of the day, how many people on the street would automatically assume a large group of people walking around in random military dress with guns are Nazis, and not just part of some huge convention they didn't know about? How many would just start shooting them, especially if they're mostly walking around and not shooting civilians wholesale?
I don't think anyone suggested Atlanta won't be taken. But note that CNN is headquartered there. Even if that was not the case video upon video upon video will be available AS IT HAPPENS immediately across the media. Even in if the Germans shut down local TV stations that will be immediately noticed.And when this has literally never happened before how likely are the uppity-ups to believe some stories they'll be seeing first on the internet? Once their forces start calling in they'll take note, but that won't be until after Atlanta is taken.
This was already discussed. There is a completely unfounded notion that because we did not send up wings worth of fighter airplanes on 9/11 that all our jets are sitting in pieces spread throughout the US and the ammunition has to be transported in from the moon.Yes, and I'm assuming that we don't keep many squadrons of aircraft armed and at the ready at all times. We're not at war where being invaded by armies is a possibility; we don't have the capacity to turn around and fight one that just shows up unannounced within our boarders in just hours. A few days or weeks and sure, we could do more. This would be totally unprecedented, at absolute worst you'd have at least a day to prepare and that force would come from outside our boarders by air (or Mexico/Canada by ground). Even that is crazy unlikely, we'd notice someone gearing up a 20-million man army and make appropriate preparations ourselves.
They have food in ATL. Food they can't transport or store at will and is itself a giant target. Already covered.Simon_Jester wrote: Zor said they were prepared, so I'd assume they've got food for at least a couple months. If they get besieged right away, they could probably stretch that to last much longer.
[/quote]And this is the kind of strategy I think they'd see failing in advance. What good is taking a city and holding it? They'll take it and hold it, but with only a portion of their army and dug in very well. Once they round up the population and start loading them into field prisons, most of the army could be on the move. 90% could leave and they'd still be 2 million occupiers to finish fortifying/securing locations, moving artillery and AA equipment, requisition supplies, and guard the populous. And again, if this happened early, there wouldn't be much traffic in the way on the roads before the army started rolling out to other targets.
The catch is that the Germans won't be able to stop people from taking cell phone pictures or tweeting because they don't know what to look for. They could in theory detach one man to watch every person in the Atlanta metropolitan area at all times, but this would rapidly become unmanageable and a huge waste of manpower that they could use productively for a lot of other things.Me2005 wrote:Yes, but I don't think anyone put the numbers down. Without putting anyone/thing in or on a building to start, you'd have men and equipment packed into every street and park in and around Atlanta and all of its suburbs upon their arrival. If they show up early in the morning, before anyone is really awake or there is any traffic, they could capture the city before anyone even gets a chance to take a picture by virtue of appearing on their doorstep.
Well, since Atlanta is taken within like five minutes that really doesn't mean anything.If no one is even awake before they start streaming into every house, what is anyone going to do? Maybe call 911, but even the 911 call center is likely to get taken. And besides, even if they were there in the middle of the day, how many people on the street would automatically assume a large group of people walking around in random military dress with guns are Nazis, and not just part of some huge convention they didn't know about? How many would just start shooting them, especially if they're mostly walking around and not shooting civilians wholesale?
And when this has literally never happened before how likely are the uppity-ups to believe some stories they'll be seeing first on the internet? Once their forces start calling in they'll take note, but that won't be until after Atlanta is taken.
Well, what's really involved is: are there effective munitions at the airbases where the planes are? If so, loading them onto the planes in response to a direct order from a general isn't exactly impossible.Yes, and I'm assuming that we don't keep many squadrons of aircraft armed and at the ready at all times. We're not at war where being invaded by armies is a possibility; we don't have the capacity to turn around and fight one that just shows up unannounced within our boarders in just hours. A few days or weeks and sure, we could do more. This would be totally unprecedented, at absolute worst you'd have at least a day to prepare and that force would come from outside our boarders by air (or Mexico/Canada by ground). Even that is crazy unlikely, we'd notice someone gearing up a 20-million man army and make appropriate preparations ourselves.Simon_Jester wrote:Well, that hinges on the actual preparation state of the US forces, and whether most US combat aircraft can be loaded and gotten into the air on several hours' notice.Even once the air units are detected, a few fighters are all that are likely to be scrambled. It'll only be once they make contact and radio in that yes, this is a problem(TM), that preparations will begin to be made beyond the 'at-the-ready' units we have on hand.
There's prepared and then there's ridiculous. There's a practical limit to how much food they can carry in addition to all the other relevant supplies.Zor said they were prepared, so I'd assume they've got food for at least a couple months. If they get besieged right away, they could probably stretch that to last much longer.
Thing is, the bulk of the German troops have to walk to their targets, which is going to take days. Long enough that the Air Force can respond effectively. Armored formations can get farther, faster- but they will run into serious problems dealing with even light US ground force and helicopter opposition, because they have no effective counter to long range guided antitank missiles. Basically, any German attack force in the open after more than several hours have passed is going to be getting whittled down and stalled by enemy forces mounting a mobile defense.And this is the kind of strategy I think they'd see failing in advance. What good is taking a city and holding it? They'll take it and hold it, but with only a portion of their army and dug in very well. Once they round up the population and start loading them into field prisons, most of the army could be on the move. 90% could leave and they'd still be 2 million occupiers to finish fortifying/securing locations, moving artillery and AA equipment, requisition supplies, and guard the populous. And again, if this happened early, there wouldn't be much traffic in the way on the roads before the army started rolling out to other targets.
Not enough to matter in this context.Zor wrote:What is the agricultural productivity of Georgia?
Zor
Saw that, I was counting the whole army. The number of aircraft just illustrates how crazy it'd be to try to park them, and I didn't say much about using aircraft because of that issue.Patroklos wrote:Dude, not only did I do the numbers for the aircraft I created a visual of the physical space the three Luftwaffe airframes alone would take up. Read the thread!Me2005 wrote: Yes, but I don't think anyone put the numbers down. Without putting anyone/thing in or on a building to start, you'd have men and equipment packed into every street and park in and around Atlanta and all of its suburbs upon their arrival. If they show up early in the morning, before anyone is really awake or there is any traffic, they could capture the city before anyone even gets a chance to take a picture by virtue of appearing on their doorstep.
This here is a problem. Looking at a Google map, it'd take days just to walk to the next state from Atlanta. We'd surely have units harassing them by then, if not full-on engaging in mop-up duties. They might dig into some additional cities and towns, but doing that makes them fixed stationary targets and gives us more time to martial the ideal materials and units to attack them with. They could have a week's surprise, this country is just too big for them to get anywhere useful on foot.Simon_Jester wrote:Thing is, the bulk of the German troops have to walk to their targets, which is going to take days. Long enough that the Air Force can respond effectively. Armored formations can get farther, faster- but they will run into serious problems dealing with even light US ground force and helicopter opposition, because they have no effective counter to long range guided antitank missiles. Basically, any German attack force in the open after more than several hours have passed is going to be getting whittled down and stalled by enemy forces mounting a mobile defense.
Internment camps are quite capable of being constructed by the prisoners themselves. And you don't need to keep them all in prison forever. Most of them can probably be released back to their home country (yay Germany!). And a UN convention keeps them from just loosing their German citizenship, so it's largely Germany's problem on how to absorb them. Those who commit warcrimes will likely not be leaving prison except feet first.Stas Bush wrote:At the time there were (1) only several million Germans as POWs (2) a multimillion strong expeditionary force in Europe that created internment camps. This time it is quite different due to the numbers involved.
If you look at any random fighter/bomber base, you'll typically find bunkers on satellite, not too far from the runway. Like so: https://goo.gl/maps/cAeOH https://goo.gl/maps/CW5HH . These are filled with effective munitions. Might not have enough for a long sustained air war, but they're there.Simon_Jester wrote:Well, what's really involved is: are there effective munitions at the airbases where the planes are? If so, loading them onto the planes in response to a direct order from a general isn't exactly impossible.Yes, and I'm assuming that we don't keep many squadrons of aircraft armed and at the ready at all times. We're not at war where being invaded by armies is a possibility; we don't have the capacity to turn around and fight one that just shows up unannounced within our boarders in just hours. A few days or weeks and sure, we could do more. This would be totally unprecedented, at absolute worst you'd have at least a day to prepare and that force would come from outside our boarders by air (or Mexico/Canada by ground). Even that is crazy unlikely, we'd notice someone gearing up a 20-million man army and make appropriate preparations ourselves.