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If the Cardinals had a QB they would have won. They'd have been better served with direct snaps to the halfback rather than bothering with a passing game that got them 70 yards for the whole game.

Elfdart wrote:If the Cardinals had a QB they would have won. They'd have been better served with direct snaps to the halfback rather than bothering with a passing game that got them 70 yards for the whole game.

Their running game hasn't been much more than of the "keeping the defense" honest for as long as I can remember. Hopefully they'll improve on that for next year as well as tweaking a few other areas. They are going to need them if they hope to win out over the Seahawks in their division.

Cincy: 4 drives, 12 attempts, 5 yards in the 3rd quarter.

Boy am I glad they kept Lewis and Dalton. Dalton is like Stafford - without the greatest receiver in the conference (and questionable OPI calls going his way) he can't do anything.

That said, I derive a lot of pleasure from the fact that the Ravens - with all the injuries and no secondary at all - are still standing while the media favourites are all out. MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA.

Oh, were the Bengals media favorites this week? Well then that'll learn 'em.

Actually, probably not.

Well I can't brag since they lost, but the Bengals have potentially been a lot more injured in critical positions for most of the season. TE#1 out for the season, WR2 out for the season, Green out for half the season, moobs out for second half of season, Burfict ("QB of the defense!") out for the season, etc. Well, you get the idea.

It was an awesome AFC North season nevertheless. The most entertaining I've seen.

Wow. I wonder how much Dallas paid those officials.

Flagg wrote:Wow. I wonder how much Dallas paid those officials.

The officiating was shit the entire game, though it definitely had a Dallas lean in the second half. That said, Detroit shit the bed on offense for an entire half with plenty of ineptitude on drives unaffected by missed calls. Their defense played stupid the entire half, extending drives with dumb penalties. I don't think you can reasonably expect to win a game when you only score 3 points in the second half and let the opposing QB go 11/15 for 200+ yards and 2 TDs.

And anyways, with how Detroit's offense was playing, even if that PI gets called, it more likely to result in a FG than a TD, which would still have left Detroit losing after Romo's second TD pass. And let's say they do get the TD after the call, it still leaves the game at 24-24 with Dallas having all the momentum going into OT. With how bad Detroit was in the second half, I have a hard time believing they would have beat the Cowboys in OT.

Lord Relvenous wrote:

Flagg wrote:Wow. I wonder how much Dallas paid those officials.

The officiating was shit the entire game, though it definitely had a Dallas lean in the second half. That said, Detroit shit the bed on offense for an entire half with plenty of ineptitude on drives unaffected by missed calls. Their defense played stupid the entire half, extending drives with dumb penalties. I don't think you can reasonably expect to win a game when you only score 3 points in the second half and let the opposing QB go 11/15 for 200+ yards and 2 TDs.

And anyways, with how Detroit's offense was playing, even if that PI gets called, it more likely to result in a FG than a TD, which would still have left Detroit losing after Romo's second TD pass. And let's say they do get the TD after the call, it still leaves the game at 24-24 with Dallas having all the momentum going into OT. With how bad Detroit was in the second half, I have a hard time believing they would have beat the Cowboys in OT.

The lions are the true masters of snacking defeat from the jaw's of victory. They have gone to shit in the second half more then any other team out there.

Thanas wrote:Pickton Manning chokes a lot. I see no reason to attribute this to anything but his usual choking antics in big games.

He is actually one of the most clutch quarterbacks in the history of the game, with the most game winning drives and the highest winning percentage while trailing at the 2 minute warning of any QB on record, and a higher playoff passer rating than Brady. He's just stunk it up the latter half of this season, with the exception of one good game against Miami and a decent one against the Chargers. Old age? Injuries? I'd like to see Manning vs. Brady possibly for the last time in the playoffs, but their matchup with the Colts looks like a trap game.

As much as I despise the Cowboys, tolerating their victory was worth sending Ndamacunt Suh out of the playoffs. That fucker.

As a disloyal Browns fan, I turn to the Patriots as my go-to bandwagon team whenever mine sucks. Hoping Brady and Belichick pick up their fourth.

HeadCreeps wrote:Well I can't brag since they lost, but the Bengals have potentially been a lot more injured in critical positions for most of the season. TE#1 out for the season, WR2 out for the season, Green out for half the season, moobs out for second half of season, Burfict ("QB of the defense!") out for the season, etc. Well, you get the idea.

Dude, we got 18 players on IR, including our TE1, CB1, CB 3-8 and FS1.

I'm sure that missing your CB3-8 is such a big deal, them being amazing elite players and all. I'm talking about actual good players. Dude.

HeadCreeps wrote:I'm sure that missing your CB3-8 is such a big deal, them being amazing elite players and all. I'm talking about actual good players. Dude.

We haven't had a good cornerback since Jimmy Smith went down, so yes, having the CBs we brought in drop like flies hurt like hell. We had 13 different combinations starting in our secondary. You should remember that from the Bungles-Ravens games.

But after at most CB3, the loss is no different from simply being missing 2 guys. Those other people are just bad CBs who were probably signed on to play STs, yes? Or some inexperienced guy who couldn't crack the top tier on the team yet, but "flashes so much potential". You're arguing quantity when I'm telling you that the Bengals had significant injuries to important players across the board whereas the Ravens, while they did suffer a number of critically important injuries, weren''t as numerous as you make it out to be.

The loss of the Ravens' CB crew isn't a whole lot different from the overall receiving situation the Bengals faced, where finally in yesterday's game they were playing a HB as a pure WR because they were so trashed. But that's not really the point -- the point is, your "18 IRs! OMG!" is bloated by no-namers.

And don't even pretend the Steelers didn't have to face losing a huge chunk of their offense Saturday without Bell. The Steelers and Bengals fucked each other over real good last week.

edit: numerous, not critical

HeadCreeps wrote:But after at most CB3, the loss is no different from simply being missing 2 guys. Those other people are just bad CBs who were probably signed on to play STs, yes?

No they are the guys we traded for / signed after our CB1 got injured. They are not the STs, they are the guys we actually started.

Heck, our secondary right now consists of:

CB1: Lardarious Webb who still has not come back fully from injury
CB2: guy we signed off a practice squad and who has played with us the last two games
CB3: a guy who was released by Tampa after game 5 of this season and who we signed two weeks ago
FS1: Will Hill who just got done serving a half-season suspension
SS1: a rotation of an undrafted rookie who we converted from ST play to SS after Week 13 and a guy who got cut from the Rams last season.

You're arguing quantity when I'm telling you that the Bengals had significant injuries to important players across the board whereas the Ravens, while they did suffer a number of critically important injuries, weren''t as numerous as you make it out to be.

We have 10 starters on IR.

68 Christo Bilukidi DE
31 Terrence Brooks FS (IR)
59 Arthur Brown ILB
17 Jeremy Butler WR
46 Morgan Cox LS
37 Danny Gorrer CB
25 Asa Jackson CB
39 Tramain Jacobs CB
95 Kapron Lewis-Moore DE
47 Kevin McDermott LS
88 Dennis Pitta TE
67 Will Rackley G
76 Jah Reid T
86 Konrad Reuland TE
38 Aaron Ross CB
22 Jimmy Smith CB
34 Lorenzo Taliaferro RB
96 Brent Urban DE
71 Rick Wagner T (IR)

The ones I bolded were starters for us. Especially the loss of Ricky Wagner, who was credited as being the best RT in football by PFF, hurt a lot.
The ones in italics were backups of people that played important roles for us.

The loss of the Ravens' CB crew isn't a whole lot different from the overall receiving situation the Bengals faced, where finally in yesterday's game they were playing a HB as a pure WR because they were so trashed. But that's not really the point -- the point is, your "18 IRs! OMG!" is bloated by no-namers.

So....our starting FS, 5 of our starting CBs and our starting RT are no-namers? Yeah. In addition to that, for the steelers game we also had to make do without our starting LT. So both starting tackles were out and we had to start an undrafted rookie at LT. And we also had to cover for our starting DT being out as well.

Yes, your long snapper and a shitload of backup CBs who are all now starters. Devastating loss there, Thanas. Bloat the numbers more, please.

Did you miss the part where I said "actual good players"?

I have to admit I'm going to flubb at least a bit, but I guess if we trim down to the good players it's:
TE Pitta
CB J Smith
T Wagner

Who isn't on IR but missed a lot of games and qualifies as a quality starter?

FS Terrence Brooks should count as completely unproven at this point. Is he good? Maybe. Jah Reid rings a bell but I can't remember if he's trash or good.

Bengals worthwhile players:
LB Burfict
TE Eifert (put him in the same category as T. Brooks if you want, but I argue he's a lot more proven)
WR Jones (eh, borderline good, you can discount him if you want, but he was looking damn good)
T Moobs

non-IR:
WR AJ Green - he didn't make IR, but he got his ass kicked all year. Did he play through a full 10 games? Less than that? He kept getting removed from games.
TE Gresham - played through injuries especially toward the end of the season
DT Geno Atkins - either he's just not that good anymore, or he hasn't recovered from a season ender last year
Gio Bernard missed some games after getting crushed in the Colts game, but he was replaced by Hill so he doesn't count.

HeadCreeps wrote:I have to admit I'm going to flubb at least a bit, but I guess if we trim down to the good players it's:
TE Pitta
CB J Smith
T Wagner

Who isn't on IR but missed a lot of games and qualifies as a quality starter?

LT Eugene Monroe - you know him. Starting LT for the last two years. Top ten pick. We are now playing James Hurst (undrafted rookie) in his place.
DT Timmy Jernigan - Rookie but played at least as good as Ngata when inserted. Now out.
DT Haloti Ngata - you know him
CB Asa Jackson - on IR but he was a good player.
RB Lorenzo Taliaferro - on IR. The reason I listed him here is because our scheme essentially depends on having a bruiser and a quick back. He was the bruiser and is now out. It is no coincidence that ever since he went on IR, Forsett's totals have gone noticeably down - up to less than 50 yards in the last game. So our running game is now worse than expected.

Besides, I bet missing two starting OTs should hurt a lot more than anything else.

FS Terrence Brooks should count as completely unproven at this point. Is he good? Maybe.

He was our starting FS before he went down and also filled in as 3rd corner depending on scheme. So yes.

Jah Reid rings a bell but I can't remember if he's trash or good.

Neither, journeyman backup. Good in jumbo but that is about it. Doesn't really matter.

If I'm going to count guys like Eifert and Jones as borderline good, I won't concede that guys who you say played some games and looked good were good starters. I'll agree to Ngata and Monroe, but not the others, including your FS.

Back to the main point, the Ravens' injuries look bad if you say they had 18 people on IR, but in reality their key injuries were comparable to other teams. Beyond that it looks like we can't really agree on the extent of either team's injuries, nor on which had it worse.

But that's that (maybe?). I do hope the Ravens beat the Patriots. If they do, the Colts or Broncos are not that threatening. Manning hasn't looked good recently and Luck is carrying the Colts. I think the NFC will win the Super Bowl unless the Patriots make it, though.

HeadCreeps wrote:If I'm going to count guys like Eifert and Jones as borderline good, I won't concede that guys who you say played some games and looked good were good starters. I'll agree to Ngata and Monroe, but not the others, including your FS.

Fair enough, but I think you should reconsider Jernigan. Per PFF:

Prior to last week Jernigan, when he played, featured in just 28.3% of the snaps, but in the absence of Ngata he was on the field for 57% of the defensive snaps against Miami, turning in a solid +1.0 performance. Despite the low snap count, Jernigan’s +9.2 overall grade ranks 14th in the league among 3-4 defensive ends. Jernigan has primarily been used as a pass rusher, his two sacks and 13 total pressures on limited snaps give him a 7.9 Pass Rushing Productivity score, ninth-best at the position. However, while Jernigan has been used sparingly in run defense, his impressive 17.5 Run Stop Percentage stands out, even if he has played too few snaps to be meaningful. With Jernigan playing like this, Ngata’s absence may not hurt the Ravens as much as expected.

Back to the main point, the Ravens' injuries look bad if you say they had 18 people on IR, but in reality their key injuries were comparable to other teams. Beyond that it looks like we can't really agree on the extent of either team's injuries, nor on which had it worse.

I know of no other team that has revamped its secondary to this degree. If you want to disagree with that, please provide examples of injuries hitting the secondaries on a comparable degree.

I always thought that the reason why mass media effect people is that we have learned to see them, television in particular as authority figures to be trusted. After all, up until a few years ago TV was how we got all of our news. So to see something on TV that looks official and informative means our brains will think it is. But that's just wild speculation on my part.

Wrong thread, chump.

Thanas wrote:Wrong thread, chump.

My apologies. I have no idea how this happened. Could you please move it.

The reason I won't concede is basically this:

Players-- perhaps especially defensive linemen-- with low snap counts should get higher grades than they'll get with higher snap counts. An example of this is the Bengals' Gilberry, who looked great as a backup, but then this year he became the main starter and looked average to bad most of the time. LT Anthony Collins, filling in for injuries, looked great on the Bengals with a low snap count last year and had been a solid backup for years, but when he moved to a full-time starter position for the Bucs, he looked awful.

Now a player with a low snap count could actually get lower grades due to inexperience-based mistakes, but the fact is that a lot of these mini-star players with low snap counts are doing well specifically because they have low snap counts over the course of the season. Coaches aren't focusing their gameplan as much around these unproven players and the players themselves are not experiencing the exhaustion and wear of a full 16 game season. If a player can run a full season and seem good as a starter, then they are good. Jernigan has as much of a chance of becoming a star as anyone, but as of this point, he isn't there.

But this becomes an arbitrary bit of opinion-based argument, so if you say Jernigan is good, that's your decision and all I can really do as a fan of a rival is hope you're wrong. If he can pull it off for a year as a starter, then yup, I'll admit he's good. Or cry in a corner. I mean seriously, look at the Bengals defensive line. What is this pass rush people speak of.

Secondaries: It's not important. Once you fall far enough into the depth chart, it's not much different from pulling guys off the street. I agree that the Ravens had a terrible situation there, but once your 3rd or 4th CB is injured, it's redundant to say the next mediocre CB in line is a big injury. Those players were either low on the depth chart or on the street before the Ravens picked them up for a reason. The Bengals have had a shitty secondary situation with injuries from I think 2011-2013, but I don't think they reached the extent you're seeing with your team this year.

WTF happened to the DL of the Bungles anyway? They were damn good against us.

Although he'll be blamed, I don't think Dalton played a very bad game. He didn't make any egregious errors despite playing without his top two receivers and against a suddenly competent Colts defense. It's just, nobody could get open.

Defensive Coordinator Paul Guenther is not Mike Zimmer is what happened.

Around week 4 is when the Bengals topped out, becoming the near consensus #1 team in the NFL. Week 5 is when they played the Patriots. Up until that point, our new Defensive Coordinator had been blitzing a lot. On week 5, he just stopped. He stopped relying on blitzes entirely and, I guess, tried to generate a pass rush with the front 4 while dropping the LBs in coverage, even though our LBs aren't any good in coverage. Presumably this was a reaction to the realization that Burfict probably wasn't coming back from his injury. Burfict was Guenther's pet project and basically the whole reason he even got the promotion to DC in the first place. Other than that, no one really knows why they stopped blitzing. We're still scratching our heads over it. The Patriots, Colts, and even the Browns proceeded to blow the Bengals up.

It turned out Geno Atkins was clearly not 100% and that our new starter DE Gilberry wasn't able to generate a good pass rush. We've inexplicably kept DE Geathers in a strong role in spite of him being terrible for a long, long time. It also took a long time for LB Maualuga to come out of injury, and he's pretty much the best run stopper after Burfict, so the Bengals were porous against the run. We let Michael Johnson leave town, and he was a huge part of our ex-top 5 defensive line. Margus Hunt was a project that Zimmer drafted a few years ago who he said "has the potential to be as good as JJ Watt if he could just learn how to play" or something to that effect. He hasn't yet learned to play. The only bright spot now is Carlos Dunlap.

For most of the rest of the season the Bengals just didn't seem to want to blitz. Should be better next year if they draft high for a DE or DT and all the key players should be able to perform again.

And yeah, this one wasn't really on Andy. He was average at best, but he had no one to throw to and Hue wasn't calling enough run plays, which he tends to do every time the Bengals fall behind. The whole team just quits in the playoffs or primetime games at the first sign of failure. It's a systemic problem.