"It's a library as conceived by the Amazon.com generation."

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Formless
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Re: "It's a library as conceived by the Amazon.com generatio

Post by Formless »

Jub wrote:You say the poor can't afford these, and I agree in the worst areas of the US that might be true. But I grew up with a single Mother who needed income assistance and by the time the early 2000's came around we had dial up and a modest PC and there were free PC's I could use in local youth centers, at school, at friend's houses, or the local library. I was poor and we managed because it was important that we kept up with the age.

So why should we design our education around what the least can afford at the expense of elevating it for even the low end median?
Context, people, context. If you want to be considered literate on a higher level than "DEEERRP" you have to start putting words into context. My point was to object to designing the education system around the experiences of the middle class and higher. There is a subtle distinction between saying schools should provide computers to correct for class differences (which they already do), and objecting to the unstated assumption that everyone of all classes has knowledge at their fingertips 24/7 because I haz interwebz. Trainwreck up there seems to think that (high school) classes providing loads of information isn't relevant anymore because kids can find that shit online (actually, you can't, any good textbook will contain something the web doesn't). That this doesn't account for people who can only access the web from school is the natural rebuttal to that idea.

My first post was very short, and mentioned the existence and ubiquity of computer labs to make this very point. Its not my fault if you didn't read or comprehend it.
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Re: "It's a library as conceived by the Amazon.com generatio

Post by Jub »

Formless wrote:
Jub wrote:You say the poor can't afford these, and I agree in the worst areas of the US that might be true. But I grew up with a single Mother who needed income assistance and by the time the early 2000's came around we had dial up and a modest PC and there were free PC's I could use in local youth centers, at school, at friend's houses, or the local library. I was poor and we managed because it was important that we kept up with the age.

So why should we design our education around what the least can afford at the expense of elevating it for even the low end median?
Context, people, context. If you want to be considered literate on a higher level than "DEEERRP" you have to start putting words into context. My point was to object to designing the education system around the experiences of the middle class and higher. There is a subtle distinction between saying schools should provide computers to correct for class differences (which they already do), and objecting to the unstated assumption that everyone of all classes has knowledge at their fingertips 24/7 because I haz interwebz. Trainwreck up there seems to think that (high school) classes providing loads of information isn't relevant anymore because kids can find that shit online (actually, you can't, any good textbook will contain something the web doesn't). That this doesn't account for people who can only access the web from school is the natural rebuttal to that idea.

My first post was very short, and mentioned the existence and ubiquity of computer labs to make this very point. Its not my fault if you didn't read or comprehend it.
Again, you have to be very poor to not be able to afford internet at home. A working single income parent with two kids could do it in an expensive city in Canada and costs have only dropped since the early 2000's. So we should design our system around the median because it is impossible to cater to everybody and still have a good system. Hence the abject failure of no child left behind style teaching, some people need to be left behind or at least catered to differently than the rest. We already do this is some intercity schools, so why shouldn't we have classes adjusted to the very poorest classes?
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Re: "It's a library as conceived by the Amazon.com generatio

Post by Formless »

Because segregating schools by social class only further alienates lower class students from richer ones, and leaves the upper classes ignorant of how their experiences differ from people "below" them?

There is more to education than what the teachers write on the blackboard.
"Still, I would love to see human beings, and their constituent organ systems, trivialized and commercialized to the same extent as damn iPods and other crappy consumer products. It would be absolutely horrific, yet so wonderful." — Shroom Man 777
"To Err is Human; to Arrr is Pirate." — Skallagrim
“I would suggest "Schmuckulating", which is what Futurists do and, by extension, what they are." — Commenter "Rayneau"
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Re: "It's a library as conceived by the Amazon.com generatio

Post by Jub »

Formless wrote:Because segregating schools by social class only further alienates lower class students from richer ones, and leaves the upper classes ignorant of how their experiences differ from people "below" them?

There is more to education than what the teachers write on the blackboard.
Society and social services either need to catch the poor up, at least as far as them being on the same level for education, or leave them behind so everybody else can have a better shot. We can't stop progress because some people will be left behind.
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Re: "It's a library as conceived by the Amazon.com generatio

Post by Formless »

Too bad the people in charge, being rich themselves, will always go for the latter of those two options, because they aren't the ones who suffer the negative consequences of the tradeoff.

I'm sorry, are you trying to make your arguments seem irrelevant to the subject at hand, or just unethical? I can't tell.
"Still, I would love to see human beings, and their constituent organ systems, trivialized and commercialized to the same extent as damn iPods and other crappy consumer products. It would be absolutely horrific, yet so wonderful." — Shroom Man 777
"To Err is Human; to Arrr is Pirate." — Skallagrim
“I would suggest "Schmuckulating", which is what Futurists do and, by extension, what they are." — Commenter "Rayneau"
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Re: "It's a library as conceived by the Amazon.com generatio

Post by Jub »

Formless wrote:Too bad the people in charge, being rich themselves, will always go for the latter of those two options, because they aren't the ones who suffer the negative consequences of the tradeoff.

I'm sorry, are you trying to make your arguments seem irrelevant to the subject at hand, or just unethical? I can't tell.
We should change the education system to expect people to have laptops and internet access and implement programs so that as few people as possible are left behind. Of course we know that funding won't be allocated to making sure people have laptops, but that shouldn't stop the system from moving on anyway. Progress has always left people behind, but we don't stop advancing our society because kids in Africa are starving; nor should we stop advancing because some of our own will be left behind.

Or do you think the education system should tell kids that can afford laptops not to use them in class because the system isn't designed with them in mind?
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Re: "It's a library as conceived by the Amazon.com generatio

Post by Formless »

Everything that you just said is so fucking retarded I don't think it deserves a response. Are you even trying to address the things I have said, or are you talking to a figment of your imagination that conveniently has the name "formless" attached to it? Again, reading comprehension is how you get beyond "Durhurhur" as you baseline literacy.

And are you really trying to sell a false dillema where we MUST change the education system so that it either helps the poor or screws the poor; and on top of that, are you telling me that you er on the side of screw the poor? Please stop calling yourself a "Progressive" immediately. The world cannot handle that kind of irony.

I think this conversation needs to end before you can say anything more to discredit yourself as a person of moral integrity.
"Still, I would love to see human beings, and their constituent organ systems, trivialized and commercialized to the same extent as damn iPods and other crappy consumer products. It would be absolutely horrific, yet so wonderful." — Shroom Man 777
"To Err is Human; to Arrr is Pirate." — Skallagrim
“I would suggest "Schmuckulating", which is what Futurists do and, by extension, what they are." — Commenter "Rayneau"
The Magic Eight Ball Conspiracy.
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Re: "It's a library as conceived by the Amazon.com generatio

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Formless wrote:Everything that you just said is so fucking retarded I don't think it deserves a response. Are you even trying to address the things I have said, or are you talking to a figment of your imagination that conveniently has the name "formless" attached to it? Again, reading comprehension is how you get beyond "Durhurhur" as you baseline literacy.

And are you really trying to sell a false dillema where we MUST change the education system so that it either helps the poor or screws the poor; and on top of that, are you telling me that you er on the side of screw the poor? Please stop calling yourself a "Progressive" immediately. The world cannot handle that kind of irony.

I think this conversation needs to end before you can say anything more to discredit yourself as a person of moral integrity.
We have to change the system to acknowledge technology, and you made a post saying that we need to accept that there are poor people that don't have net access at home. I'm saying fuck those people, we need to acknowledge that the vast majority have internet access and that many students could utilize laptops in the class room. Lessons should be devised for the median which at this stage should mean has internet at home and a basic laptop for the child. Laptops are cheap enough already and will be even cheaper if the expectation is that every child will have one.

Even the working poor can afford these tools at this point and with even a little subsidy most people won't even feel a pinch. It gets even easier when we realize that even a low end laptop will last for years if all you need to do is word pro and power point. Thus we should design our education system around that so we can teach children in the most effective way possible. I say we should do this even if it means leaving some people behind.

What is immoral about understanding that progress will leave some behind and accepting this as a cost of progress?
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Re: "It's a library as conceived by the Amazon.com generatio

Post by Formless »

What part of "false dilemma" do you not understand, you dishonest prick? You have yet to give a valid reason why the system needs changing, or even what that change would look like besides fucking the poor in a horrible misapplication of "progress", and ignored anything I've said that hasn't fit into that worldview. Computers and labs are supplied specifically for the purpose of equalizing economic differences? Not addressed. The internet does not, in fact, contain all the information that an educated person needs? Not addressed. Even the social functions of school you flatly ignore. At this point you've thrown context out a window with murderous intent so you can grandstand about bullshit only you give a fuck about and which happens to make you look like some kind of Young Republican spambot masquerading as flesh.

I should have known from the "No Child Left Behind" rhetorical cliches that you weren't willing to leave your own headspace for the minute amount of time it takes to read my posts, but this is just ridiculous. Shut the fuck up until you understand that this "debate" thing requires some attempt to engage with the other person and not just fill the page with the most words.
"Still, I would love to see human beings, and their constituent organ systems, trivialized and commercialized to the same extent as damn iPods and other crappy consumer products. It would be absolutely horrific, yet so wonderful." — Shroom Man 777
"To Err is Human; to Arrr is Pirate." — Skallagrim
“I would suggest "Schmuckulating", which is what Futurists do and, by extension, what they are." — Commenter "Rayneau"
The Magic Eight Ball Conspiracy.
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Re: "It's a library as conceived by the Amazon.com generatio

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Formless wrote: Computers and labs are supplied specifically for the purpose of equalizing economic differences? Not addressed. The internet does not, in fact, contain all the information that an educated person needs? Not addressed. Even the social functions of school you flatly ignore.
I've found that school Labs are barely adequate for their purpose, their only advantage is that the software on them is legit and usually somewhat up to date. What information do you think is unavailable on the internet that the majority of "educated" people would need?

And what social function do you think schools perform apart from demonizing being smarter than average? Teachers dislike smart kids because it means they have to try and make more work for more than lowest necessary to occupy bored disinterested kids for 50 minutes. The disinterested kids hate the smarter ones because they're seen to be not doing work for 30 odd minutes in a lesson because they've done the shite the teacher prepared, and any homework that was necessary as well.
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Re: "It's a library as conceived by the Amazon.com generatio

Post by Jub »

Formless wrote:What part of "false dilemma" do you not understand, you dishonest prick? You have yet to give a valid reason why the system needs changing, or even what that change would look like besides fucking the poor in a horrible misapplication of "progress", and ignored anything I've said that hasn't fit into that worldview. Computers and labs are supplied specifically for the purpose of equalizing economic differences? Not addressed. The internet does not, in fact, contain all the information that an educated person needs? Not addressed. Even the social functions of school you flatly ignore. At this point you've thrown context out a window with murderous intent so you can grandstand about bullshit only you give a fuck about and which happens to make you look like some kind of Young Republican spambot masquerading as flesh.

I should have known from the "No Child Left Behind" rhetorical cliches that you weren't willing to leave your own headspace for the minute amount of time it takes to read my posts, but this is just ridiculous. Shut the fuck up until you understand that this "debate" thing requires some attempt to engage with the other person and not just fill the page with the most words.
Did you fail to read what I wrote there formless, I've been explaining my POV and why we should make the switch without hesitation. You seem to think I care that you find my idea immoral. Protip, I could care less what you think.

Now, the reason that I said that lessons plans should be designed around laptops in the classroom and with the assumption that a student will have internet access at home is as follows. As it stands, in elementary to high school, if a bright kid who has money and isn't just playing games in class brings in a laptop he most likely won't be allowed to use it to enhance his learning experience because that was never factored into the lesson plan. This stunts that child's ability to grow at the expense of the average or even below average child. However if we incorporate learning tools into the class room we raise the average level of the class and give the exceptional children a bit more room to grow without forcing the smart kids into private schools.

Of course that isn't the only reason to do this. If we look at the real world for a moment how many adults under the age of 50 don't use a computer daily? The simple answer is not many, and for a good reason. Most people use a computer as a major part of their job regardless of the field. Yet computer use is a tiny fraction of what is covered in school and students aren't getting used to using them for note taking, recording lectures, or getting used to having daily and prolonged time spent interacting with a computer, because the school system is archaic. Yet part of the reason we cling to these methods is that we fear leaving people behind and another is that the people at the top often don't realize how much actual computer use there is in the world today.

Yet you seem to think it immoral that I advocate advancing along this path even knowing that government funding can't and won't ensure that every child has access to the same tools. I'm saying that it's more immoral to hold people back for issues of inertia and fear. I'm not creating a false dilemma, I'm simply advocating what I feel is the best way forward and accepting that it fails to include everybody.
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Re: "It's a library as conceived by the Amazon.com generatio

Post by Silver Jedi »

I think by itself, this can be a useful program. I'd love to be able to pick up books after hours from a locker, since I'm rarely free during my local branch's normal hours. That said, I strongly suspect the next step after installing these lockers is further cuts to library hours, eventually replacing normal branches altogether with a set of lockers.

Also, Jub, when your solution to any problem is literally (in your own words) fuck the poor, you've lost the moral high ground. Fuck you.
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Re: "It's a library as conceived by the Amazon.com generatio

Post by Soontir C'boath »

Here I thought it was going to be something that completely replaced libraries rather than supplement the hours cut from them. My idea was basically a warehouse that would have external terminals where you can choose the media you want and it will be moved off the shelf onto a conveyor system to the terminal. It can show you an eBook version of what you want to let you browse for 2 minutes before borrowing it. If you need assistance from a librarian, you can either contact one using the terminal in a video conference or the old fashion way by calling the telephone number.
Silver Jedi wrote: That said, I strongly suspect the next step after installing these lockers is further cuts to library hours, eventually replacing normal branches altogether with a set of lockers.
Which would suck immensely. It would kill the ability to enjoy reading or studying IN the library which should be one of its main functions.
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