Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

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Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Poll ended at 2014-11-12 05:11pm

Yes
53
60%
Maybe
5
6%
No
26
29%
Don't Know
5
6%
 
Total votes: 89

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TheFeniX
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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by TheFeniX »

Stas Bush wrote:But the core of my argument wasn't about their appearance; it was that their moral system is different due to the resentment. They can get laid, and they do it (the frequency and quality can be disputed, but still). That's not the point.
Those people who care about "resentment" are not the people buying FPS, Action, and Sports games en masse. If anything, those people fucking hate those games. Seriously, Sports Games were the bastion of "normal" people even back when gaming was for "no-life losers." They were mocked ruthlessly by "real gamers," the type of person you are describing. Said people are a part of the market, but not one worth bothering marketing to except to keep them as quiet as possible so they don't get riled up and start a shit-storm. You may have had a point back before 2000 when the core games would have likely been Arena Shooters and RTS players and the market was targeting them (because they were the only people buying PC games). That shit is dead and gone. Has been for 15 years.

Kids who grew up playing with Transformer toys are not the people who turned "explosions and robots: the movie" into a billion dollar blockbuster. They watched the movie, bitched about it, then probably kept bitching about it. Those people do not matter other than posting mean things on the Internet about how Megan Fox is a skank and shouldn't have been in the movie. They are a drop in the bucket profit-wise.
What is the point, however, is that the 'achievements' of these people are not considered achievements at all by the society - this leads to resentment. And they are locked in it, because for them being able to get X frags or rank somewhere on a leaderboard actually is an achievement, and be damned all those that try to somehow 'invade', 'belittle', 'spoil' or 'ruin' their games.
This would mean something if the market was still pandering to the same group of guys. The whole point of a lot of games currently is to get money, try not to piss off the majority of your players, make new N+1 game, and make more money. Gaming, by and large, is now more profitable specifically because of people who view it as a diversion, rather than a way of life.
But no group considers core gamers as life-achievers, as people of high social status except themselves in their enclosed fantasy world.
No group of gamers has that status unless it's taken in a professional capacity. I've talked about this before, but most entertainment (especially interactive entertainment) is in this vein. Gaming is nothing special in this regard.

There's no difference between some kid bragging about 360noscoping some noob in COD than some other guy bragging about how X football team he supports beat Y football he does not support and how his choice makes him better than everyone else. It's human nature to say "my choices, no matter how trivial, make me better than you because they are my choices." To think that gaming is somehow special in this regard doesn't move me.

Video games may not have the coverage movies and sports do (and may never due to the interactive nature), but that doesn't change the fact that normal people (for lack of a better term) are firmly in charge of the industry. So trying to pawn off responsibility for the shitpile it's become onto so-called "hardcore gamers" doesn't pan.
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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by K. A. Pital »

TheFeniX wrote:Seriously, Sports Games were the bastion of "normal" people even back when gaming was for "no-life losers." They were mocked ruthlessly by "real gamers," the type of person you are describing.
And are sports gamers behind the whole thing? Or rather, it is action and shooter gamers who get sad that some people (or more precisely, some women) notice how their games are full of tit-heavy females of the kind these guys never get in real life, so they get all riled up and start posting rape threats and rape pictures on the net?
TheFeniX wrote:This would mean something if the market was still pandering to the same group of guys. The whole point of a lot of games currently is to get money, try not to piss off the majority of your players, make new N+1 game, and make more money. Gaming, by and large, is now more profitable specifically because of people who view it as a diversion, rather than a way of life.
But that is precisely why motherfucker are riled up. Look at the films. Did action films get less dumb due to the lead actor sometimes being black? No. Did action films get 'less fun' due to that fact? No. Do games get less fun if they start getting actually sensible female characters instead of boob magnets? Unlikely (and there still will be pandering, anyway). So as games are becoming more mainstream, the 'core gamers' are getting angry. Just as they should.
TheFeniX wrote:No group of gamers has that status unless it's taken in a professional capacity. I've talked about this before, but most entertainment (especially interactive entertainment) is in this vein. Gaming is nothing special in this regard.
Precisely what I am getting at. Do movie reviewers get death threats if they say Uwe Boll's films are crap? Usually no. So why do game reviewers get rape and mutilation threats for that? Because films are an exposed part of culture, which has long been the subject of cultural onslaught to make it... let's say, 'more normal'. On the other hand, gaming is a recent genre of entertainment and so it was heavily shielded in the beginning. The last vestiges of that pathetic shield are dying off now as it becomes a proper multimillion dollar industry just like filming, and some are unhappy. See, gender and political correctness is too much for them! They grew up with other games or something.
TheFeniX wrote:There's no difference between some kid bragging about 360noscoping some noob in COD than some other guy bragging about how X football team he supports beat Y football he does not support and how his choice makes him better than everyone else. It's human nature to say "my choices, no matter how trivial, make me better than you because they are my choices." To think that gaming is somehow special in this regard doesn't move me.
That is correct too. Sports fans are a passive subculture. All their resentment is channelized into an absolutely worthless activity of supporting a bunch of guys running on a field. :lol: That is why I said that, but I forgot to mention sports fans. Thanks for reminding. And no, actually, some people (maybe I can call them better people, dunno) manage to channel the resentment into activities that matter in real life: political movements, community policing et cetera.
TheFeniX wrote:Video games may not have the coverage movies and sports do (and may never due to the interactive nature), but that doesn't change the fact that normal people (for lack of a better term) are firmly in charge of the industry. So trying to pawn off responsibility for the shitpile it's become onto so-called "hardcore gamers" doesn't pan.
No-no-no. Wait. The films are an exposed industry and that is precisely why saying "Movie X is a fucking wankers' fantasy with too much rape wishes" is perfectly normal, while saying the same about a computer game will cause anrgy gamers to lash out. See? That's the difference. Secluded 'separate moral' and common morals. And don't make the mistake I want to blame it on hardcore gamers alone: the guys who sell it are perfectly aware that resentment creates a multitude of desires to have an alternative social status hierarchy where you can be king. They wouldn't be able to build an industry otherwise. But are they the same as core gamers? Hell no man. I mean... Just trust me, they are not like their audience, and they fully realize just what kind of product they are selling and why. Unlike the impulsive monkeys discussed so far.
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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by TheFeniX »

Stas Bush wrote:And are sports gamers behind the whole thing? Or rather, it is action and shooter gamers who get sad that some people (or more precisely, some women) notice how their games are full of tit-heavy females of the kind these guys never get in real life, so they get all riled up and start posting rape threats and rape pictures on the net?
Eh? The whole emphasis on tacticool shooters has lead to women being ignored more than anything else. As for action games, I'd actually need some examples. Skyrim was insanely popular and didn't have that issue. Really, all I can think of off-hand would be GTA and no one is willing to take Rockstar to task on anything. Funny though that as Halo gained more in popularity, the changes to Cortana, both physically and mentally, were much more in line with your "boobies" comment.

But seriously, fiction is general is fucking JAM PACKED with men and women who are far and above the rest of us, but video games are somehow special in this regard? Notice how ugly men can get a lead in TV shows and movies and women can't with rare exception? Hell, it's an ongoing joke what with "I meant Hollywood ugly, not ugly ugly."

It's not right in the least, but singling out video games as some kind of last bastion of male empowerment is hilarious. Further, saying "if we could just get rid of those losers who yell about video games, we'd all be better off" might be true for appearances but will do nothing to change publisher ideas that women don't sell and men are where the "serious" gamers are at.
But that is precisely why motherfucker are riled up. Look at the films. Did action films get less dumb due to the lead actor sometimes being black? No. Did action films get 'less fun' due to that fact? No. Do games get less fun if they start getting actually sensible female characters instead of boob magnets? Unlikely (and there still will be pandering, anyway). So as games are becoming more mainstream, the 'core gamers' are getting angry. Just as they should.
"Are becoming?" That was years ago. We're past that. The original group of video game players didn't multiply enough to drive profits from the hundreds of thousands to the millions: Publishers culled an entirely new playerbase. As I said before, the dudebro label did not come out of a vacuum. That is my main point. As part of this, sexism has (IMO) become progressively worse from both the people who make games and those who buy them.

Why is that?

And if this "core gamer" demographics is so horrible: why did Lara Croft sell, now and in the 90s? Why did Metroid games sell? Why was there no Internet explosion for Alice? Left 4 Dead? Dead Island? Dreamfall? Borderlands? Mysteries of the Sith?
Precisely what I am getting at. Do movie reviewers get death threats if they say Uwe Boll's films are crap? Usually no. So why do game reviewers get rape and mutilation threats for that? Because films are an exposed part of culture, which has long been the subject of cultural onslaught to make it... let's say, 'more normal'. On the other hand, gaming is a recent genre of entertainment and so it was heavily shielded in the beginning. The last vestiges of that pathetic shield are dying off now as it becomes a proper multimillion dollar industry just like filming, and some are unhappy. See, gender and political correctness is too much for them! They grew up with other games or something.
Didn't Kate Mulgrew get death threats when she was cast as Janeway? Didn't Ebert get death threats as a matter of course?

And didn't you say action movies are for morons? Yet they gross shitloads of money and the entertainment industry is still chock-full of sexism. Sounds like normal people are just as fucked up and stupid as these gaming nerds you're railing against.
That is correct too. Sports fans are a passive subculture. All their resentment is channelized into an absolutely worthless activity of supporting a bunch of guys running on a field. :lol: That is why I said that, but I forgot to mention sports fans. Thanks for reminding. And no, actually, some people (maybe I can call them better people, dunno) manage to channel the resentment into activities that matter in real life: political movements, community policing et cetera.
I don't know where to go with this. Sport culture in general is pretty sexist. Women are marginalized to show off their bodies and female sports do not play well in many countries. This is a cultural issue, not a small subset of the sports community being extremely sexist.
No-no-no. Wait. The films are an exposed industry and that is precisely why saying "Movie X is a fucking wankers' fantasy with too much rape wishes" is perfectly normal, while saying the same about a computer game will cause anrgy gamers to lash out. See? That's the difference. Secluded 'separate moral' and common morals. And don't make the mistake I want to blame it on hardcore gamers alone: the guys who sell it are perfectly aware that resentment creates a multitude of desires to have an alternative social status hierarchy where you can be king. They wouldn't be able to build an industry otherwise. But are they the same as core gamers? Hell no man. I mean... Just trust me, they are not like their audience, and they fully realize just what kind of product they are selling and why. Unlike the impulsive monkeys discussed so far.
Please, did you read anything about the Transformers movie when it came out? The Internet was being the Internet and Megan Fox was the target of a whole load of sexist shit. Michael Bay gets death threats all the fucking time.

Edit: as for hardcore gamers freaking out about bad reviews: Have a loot at what Gearbox whined about when DNF got hammered.
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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by Darth Yan »

Quinn did in fact lie and say she donated to charities; when the two charities in question said they never go the money she removed all references to having done so

https://images.encyclopediadramatica.se ... rgate4.jpg

I can link more. But a large part is that Zoe Quinn did do some unethical shit.
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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by GuppyShark »

It's a good thing she's not a video game journalist then or these #Gamergate people might have a problem with her....
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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

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Darth Yan wrote:Quinn did in fact lie and say she donated to charities; when the two charities in question said they never go the money she removed all references to having done so

https://images.encyclopediadramatica.se ... rgate4.jpg

I can link more. But a large part is that Zoe Quinn did do some unethical shit.
Except of course, it turns out that the heroic investigators of GamerGate are just morons who just failed to consider the possibility that she made the donations under her own name.

Which is what she did (read down to the updates)

And you're a moron for not being able to find what I found in less than five minutes on google.
Last edited by Vendetta on 2014-10-27 04:22pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by Terralthra »

Surprise surprise, more accusations of bullshit with context-less emails.

Bullshit, naturally, since both organizations have confirmed they are in receipt of donations from Zoe Quinn.
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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

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Part of the reason why we may not see as much backlash for the actual big gaming news sites is that many of the gamers that consider themselves informed don't use them. I see IGN and Kotaku as places to maybe skim some very general news about a game and maybe grab a beta key in a giveaway, then I go looking at the reviewers I trust and see what they have to say. In general I skip the Kotaku/IGN/major news network stage all together and just go straight to the reviewers I trust and thus don't even see the dishonest shit they're spewing or the ads they're paying for. It's hard for me to get mad at an issue that doesn't much effect me especially as it usually tends to promote terrible series/games that I'd have avoided anyway rather than hold down better games (things like Alpha Protocol being the exception rather than the rule) that I would be steered towards through other channels anyway.
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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

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I'll concede on the charity thing. there are some other issues as well (Polygon editors like Ben Kuchera were paying Zoe Quinn on Patreaon); are many gamers sexist? Yes. Is there hypocrisy in how gamers address lack of ethics? Yes. Does that mean Zoe Quinn wasn't unethical

Also there were other guys she slept with (one was a judge in a contest that judged depression quest). The problem wasn't just that she slept with other guys; she slept with people in order to get better scores for her games, which IS unethical. The movement was badly focused and should have denounced the sexists who were in the movement. But at the same time Anita Sarkeesian and Zoe Quinn have done some shady ass shit (Sarkeesian supported gender segregated trains for instance).

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/events/gamergate

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articl ... 24244.html

http://mangotron.com/pro-vs-anti-gamerg ... nterviews/

these actually sum it up well.
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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by bilateralrope »

Also there were other guys she slept with (one was a judge in a contest that judged depression quest). The problem wasn't just that she slept with other guys; she slept with people in order to get better scores for her games, which IS unethical.
Which reviews did she get better scores for ?

Be sure to include links to the reviews in question. Or at least proof that the reviewer she was accused of sleeping with both slept with her and was working on a review until the review got canceled.
Last edited by bilateralrope on 2014-10-27 04:47pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

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Darth Yan wrote:I'll concede on the charity thing. there are some other issues as well (Polygon editors like Ben Kuchera were paying Zoe Quinn on Patreaon); are many gamers sexist? Yes. Is there hypocrisy in how gamers address lack of ethics? Yes. Does that mean Zoe Quinn wasn't unethical

Also there were other guys she slept with (one was a judge in a contest that judged depression quest). The problem wasn't just that she slept with other guys; she slept with people in order to get better scores for her games, which IS unethical. The movement was badly focused and should have denounced the sexists who were in the movement. But at the same time Anita Sarkeesian and Zoe Quinn have done some shady ass shit (Sarkeesian supported gender segregated trains for instance).

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/events/gamergate

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articl ... 24244.html

http://mangotron.com/pro-vs-anti-gamerg ... nterviews/

these actually sum it up well.
Yan, you're focused on the wrong side of the issues here. The publishers are less of a problem than the journalists themselves, there will always be skeezy devs looking to get ahead, but most of them do it with money and ads rather than sex. If the journalists had any guts, they'd turn down the offered swag, money, sex, drugs, trips, etc. that various companies use to buy better reviews. I also don't see sex as any better or worse than the other bribes being offered nor do I care about the politics of two random women who may or may not have done some shady things. They are small frys in this scene anyway.
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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by Terralthra »

So...she did something unethical by sleeping with someone who, several months before, judged her video game? What, she promised him that if he gave her game a good rating in late summer/early fall of 2013, then at some point in March or April of 2014, she'd sleep with him? Your evidence for this conclusion over the null hypothesis (she slept with him because she liked him and liked sex) is....what exactly? How much fucking sex-shaming can you do? Who someone else slept with isn't any of your fucking business. If you think DepressionQuest is a bad game, fine, think it's a bad game, and don't spend any money on it. That doesn't make anyone who disagreed with you "corrupt".

How is it unethical for someone to pay an indie game maker for a game they like? Isn't that the whole way it should work for pay-what-you-want games? A game reviewer saying "this is a good game" is being consistent by paying the developer for it.

As for Sarkeesian's train comment, I don't particularly think gender-segregated trains are a great idea, but then again, I don't have to guard my body against sexual assault on a daily basis when I get on a bus or BART train. Maybe if my life involved sizing up the passengers around me for who's going to grab me today, my opinion might shift. In Japan, where creepers groping women and taking up-skirt pictures are a pretty big problem, they have women-only train cars to try to defuse this, so it's not like she's the first to think of it.
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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by bilateralrope »

For anyone defending GamersGate as being about ethics, pointing to unethical activity from the women GamersGate attacks doesn't help you. Just because they are misogynists doesn't mean they will ignore actual unethical behavior.

To convince me, you need to show GamersGate going after unethical behavior that doesn't have them also going after women.
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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by Vendetta »

Darth Yan wrote: Also there were other guys she slept with (one was a judge in a contest that judged depression quest).
Actually this is also a lie. You're talking about Robin Arnott, who included Depression Quest in Indiecade 2013 Night Games. Which wasn't a contest, it was an art installation. Arnott also included one of his own games in in zomg teh bias!

0 for 2 fucklump.
The problem wasn't just that she slept with other guys; she slept with people in order to get better scores for her games, which IS unethical.
Except none of the people she's accused of sleeping with ever gave any scores for her game.

So if that's what she was doing she wasn't doing it very well.

Or you're just a lying fucklump who'll believe any dumb ass shit the internet tells him and parrot it to his betters as if he's a real person.
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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by TheFeniX »

Jub wrote:Yan, you're focused on the wrong side of the issues here. The publishers are less of a problem than the journalists themselves, there will always be skeezy devs looking to get ahead, but most of them do it with money and ads rather than sex. If the journalists had any guts, they'd turn down the offered swag, money, sex, drugs, trips, etc. that various companies use to buy better reviews. I also don't see sex as any better or worse than the other bribes being offered nor do I care about the politics of two random women who may or may not have done some shady things. They are small frys in this scene anyway.
What? Who releases the bullshots? Who constantly shows us "100% real in-game footage?" NOTE: not actually in-game footage. Who controls the pre-release gameplay demos and who gets access to them (note: you won't get access to them, not anymore).

If EA says Kotaku (or whoever) doesn't get advance copies of their game for review, there is shit the reviewer can do. Gearbox flat-out threatened to keep demos out of the hands of people who gave DNF a bad review, although considering how terrible the game was, a "worse than we could allow for" review.

Yea, a lot of review sites rely on ads, click-bait, and either don't bother playing a game for more than 5 seconds before writing a rave review (or bag on it because their buddy over at Y site is going to as well) or couldn't hammer out an honest review to save their lives. But to claim they're actually a bigger problem than the companies cranking out games like Brink and relying on the pre-release hype to pad their coffers before it all blows up is a weird stance to take.

If Dodge decides to advertise their next shit-heap as a family-wagon, all advertisement showing it fitting 35 people, and after purchase you realize it's only fits 2 people: how is that less of a deal than if Car and Driver lies along with them? And really, most of the reviews don't even bother lieing: they just ignore actual issues with the game and focus on whatever good they can and/or try to convince you the terrible shot is actually good. Basically, "The car was designed for 35, only fits two, but oversized cup-holders people, it has oversized cup-holders!"
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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by bilateralrope »

TheFeniX wrote:If EA says Kotaku (or whoever) doesn't get advance copies of their game for review, there is shit the reviewer can do. Gearbox flat-out threatened to keep demos out of the hands of people who gave DNF a bad review, although considering how terrible the game was, a "worse than we could allow for" review.
Or, for a more recent example that GamersGate was silent on: Shadows of Mordor.
Review copies of the console version were obtained through the usual procedures. Review copies of the PC version required agreeing to a very dodgy agreement making them basically paid advertisements. With the legally mandated disclosure hidden where most people won't see it.
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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by Vendetta »

bilateralrope wrote:For anyone defending GamersGate as being about ethics, pointing to unethical activity from the women GamersGate attacks doesn't help you. Just because they are misogynists doesn't mean they will ignore actual unethical behavior.

To convince me, you need to show GamersGate going after unethical behavior that doesn't have them also going after women.
Also: Unethical behaviour from actual videogame journalists which consists of something other than "saying a mean thing about GamerGate". Which is their other target.

GamerGate does two things, harrass women and harrass people who point out that them harrassing women is shitty.

(NB: No the argument that the harrassers are "unaffiliated" with GamerGate does not wash, many of the core and most vocal members were in the original IRC which co-ordinated harrassment of Zoe Quinn, and one is the guy who made the "beat up Anita Sarkeesian" flash game. That's the "grassroots" of the movement, the ethics concern trolls are just useful idiots who make noise to cover for them, knowingly or not)
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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by Vendetta »

bilateralrope wrote:
TheFeniX wrote:If EA says Kotaku (or whoever) doesn't get advance copies of their game for review, there is shit the reviewer can do. Gearbox flat-out threatened to keep demos out of the hands of people who gave DNF a bad review, although considering how terrible the game was, a "worse than we could allow for" review.
Or, for a more recent example that GamersGate was silent on: Shadows of Mordor.
Review copies of the console version were obtained through the usual procedures. Review copies of the PC version required agreeing to a very dodgy agreement making them basically paid advertisements. With the legally mandated disclosure hidden where most people won't see it.
And Youtube content ID claims to remove videos which didn't conform. You forgot that bit.

Plaid Social, the PR agency behind this, has not been the target of a public internet witch hunt though.
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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by Darth Yan »

Well what about the real politics article?

Two of the guys who helped Zoe Quinn with Crowdfunding for her work did review her games later on.

And no I am not justifying whatever harassment Zoe Quinn got. However does that change the fact that the personal information (address, name) of at least six prominent people in gamer gate (adam baldwin, milo yiannopolous, jontron shoe@nhead boogie2988 and eron gjoni) were released online, that they were accompanied by a list of "crimes" and that women and minorities who have spoken out in support of gamer gate have also been harassed or accused of internalized misogyny?
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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by bilateralrope »

Darth Yan wrote:Two of the guys who helped Zoe Quinn with Crowdfunding for her work did review her games later on.
Any proof of that ?
And no I am not justifying whatever harassment Zoe Quinn got.
So why are you so focused on her ?
However does that change the fact that the personal information (address, name) of at least six prominent people in gamer gate (adam baldwin, milo yiannopolous, jontron shoe@nhead boogie2988 and eron gjoni) were released online, that they were accompanied by a list of "crimes" and that women and minorities who have spoken out in support of gamer gate have also been harassed or accused of internalized misogyny?
Proof ?
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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by Vendetta »

Darth Yan wrote: Two of the guys who helped Zoe Quinn with Crowdfunding for her work did review her games later on.
Which has what to do with her?

Games journalists are also people who purchase and play videogames as a hobby, that means they explicitly financially support certain games oh noes teh bias.
However does that change the fact that the personal information (address, name) of at least six prominent people in gamer gate (adam baldwin, milo yiannopolous, jontron shoe@nhead boogie2988 and eron gjoni) were released online, that they were accompanied by a list of "crimes" and that women and minorities who have spoken out in support of gamer gate have also been harassed or accused of internalized misogyny?
Tu Quoque fallacy. Fuck off and learn to logic better.
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Vendetta
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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by Vendetta »

It is actually enlightening to examine the debating tactics of GamerGate, they're actually really similar to those of creationists. Get into an argument in one of their hotspots like the Escapist megathread and you're liable for a gish gallop and a host of tu quoque fallacies, straw men, question begging, and general red herringry.
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Jub
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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by Jub »

TheFeniX wrote:What? Who releases the bullshots? Who constantly shows us "100% real in-game footage?" NOTE: not actually in-game footage. Who controls the pre-release gameplay demos and who gets access to them (note: you won't get access to them, not anymore).

If EA says Kotaku (or whoever) doesn't get advance copies of their game for review, there is shit the reviewer can do. Gearbox flat-out threatened to keep demos out of the hands of people who gave DNF a bad review, although considering how terrible the game was, a "worse than we could allow for" review.
If they don't let people review their games, the company should just make an article about how they're like to have offered a review but couldn't. Then they can go on to explain why they were denied the review copy and how ethically they couldn't review the game under the conditions that would have allowed them access to said game. That's what TB does and he's not exactly hurting his view counts by doing so, so why can't other companies do the same?
Yea, a lot of review sites rely on ads, click-bait, and either don't bother playing a game for more than 5 seconds before writing a rave review (or bag on it because their buddy over at Y site is going to as well) or couldn't hammer out an honest review to save their lives. But to claim they're actually a bigger problem than the companies cranking out games like Brink and relying on the pre-release hype to pad their coffers before it all blows up is a weird stance to take.
These review sites have the power to shine a light on these games either before or just after release and often times they fail in this duty. Even if they're only allowed to release positive reviews about certain games, they can still give a low score and make any praise faint with hints as to what the issues are. If that causes the publisher to flip shit so be it, you can now freely pan their games and cost them money until they come crawling back to you. You can cut their ads and make sure that their ad money isn't tricking your customers into buying games.

It is easier for them to lean on game devs than it is for customers to do the same. Mainly because if I get suckered into a bad game I can't easily return it and I may like the next game that company makes so a boycott hurts me more than it hurts them.
If Dodge decides to advertise their next shit-heap as a family-wagon, all advertisement showing it fitting 35 people, and after purchase you realize it's only fits 2 people: how is that less of a deal than if Car and Driver lies along with them? And really, most of the reviews don't even bother lieing: they just ignore actual issues with the game and focus on whatever good they can and/or try to convince you the terrible shot is actually good. Basically, "The car was designed for 35, only fits two, but oversized cup-holders people, it has oversized cup-holders!"
The networks and magazines showing these ads are equally to blame, they can turn to Dodge and say 'Look, you let us have a peak at your car and make sure that you're not lying in your ads, or the ad doesn't air on our network. We're also putting in a clause where if you do turn out to have lied, we pull your ads and keep the money and that we have the right to fill your remaining ad space with shit saying you lied until the ad time you bought would normally have expired.' Then companies have to think twice about if lying to you, and thus the consumer, might hurt their bottom line.
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Darth Yan
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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by Darth Yan »

bilateralrope wrote:
Darth Yan wrote:Two of the guys who helped Zoe Quinn with Crowdfunding for her work did review her games later on.
Any proof of that ?
And no I am not justifying whatever harassment Zoe Quinn got.
So why are you so focused on her ?
However does that change the fact that the personal information (address, name) of at least six prominent people in gamer gate (adam baldwin, milo yiannopolous, jontron shoe@nhead boogie2988 and eron gjoni) were released online, that they were accompanied by a list of "crimes" and that women and minorities who have spoken out in support of gamer gate have also been harassed or accused of internalized misogyny?
Proof ?

1.) http://www.polygon.com/forums/meta/2014 ... on-support

http://kotaku.com/a-brief-note-about-th ... 1627041269


2.) It's annoying to see people claim she's a wholly innocent victim who's done nothing wrong.

Or as the realclearpolitics article pointed out

"Of course none of this justifies harassment or threats toward Quinn. But the full story does not make her a very sympathetic figure.

3.) http://theralphretort.com/wp-content/up ... WDOXX1.jpg
(actually look at the image.)

https://medium.com/@oliverbcampbell/whe ... 1f36421022

Here are some articles on anita sarkeesian btw

http://gamesided.com/2014/09/08/sarkees ... ensorship/

http://gamesided.com/2014/09/09/sarkees ... standards/

http://gamesided.com/2014/09/10/nsarkee ... en-koopas/

http://thelearnedfangirl.com/2013/02/24 ... arkeesian/

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articl ... 24375.html

I actually do feel that there is a lot of sexism in the gamer gate movement (largely because there is a lack of organization and an unwillingness to acknowledge sexism instead saying its just trolls). The silence on the shadow of mordor deal is also damning. I also feel that a.) Some of the people involved really do care about integrity and are annoyed at corruption (I've spoken to gamergaters who have indeed mentioned the eidos firing controversy) and b.) some of the opposition is a desire to avoid acknowledging nepotism and corruption.
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Vendetta
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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by Vendetta »

Darth Yan wrote: 1.)
Irrelevant, fucknut. How does this reflect on Zoe Quinn and not the journalists in question. If your answer is "it doesn't" (which would be the correct answer) then why did you bring it up in the context of a discussion about her if not to taint her by association with alleged misdeeds of others.

ie. you're a dishonest shitlord.
2.) It's annoying to see people claim she's a wholly innocent victim who's done nothing wrong.
Except when asked for evidence of what she's "done wrong" you lied out of your ass and reproduced things that were debunked literally months ago.

ie. you're a dishonest shitlord.
3.
Tu quoque fallacy, cut out the dishonest bullshit.

Proceed to gish gallop off a cliff, posting six articles as if anyone is going to rebut them here for you is twattery.
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