Saving Private Ryan, realistic?

Raptor 597 · Post by **Raptor 597** » 2002-09-02 06:47pm

Lord_Vader wrote:Uh no sorry man I got to argue with that point. Since I myself am part German and had relatives on both sides of the war. First of all the notion that 'every soldier knew' is utter crap. The death camps were NOT advertised and such. Second thing you are unfairly accusing many young boys who were conscripted and forced to fight as simply being evil. One can say the same about the Americans and the destruction of the Indians (native americans if u want that to be used instead). The simple truth is yes the death camps were horrific and so were the genocidal policies that Hitler put forth. Now has mass genocide been done before? Yes it has...any student of history knows that the Mongols have arguably killed more people than anyone else in history. When they rampaged through China whole cities of MILLIONS were killed, or if not killed then put in as slaves to be used for the next siege. This continued on throughout most of Asia as the mongols rampaged through it all. What of the Japanese and the massive amounts of killings they inflicted on China? I think I have read somewhere that most Chinese arent happy that that point is often overlooked. More Chinese died by Japanese during the invasion and then occupation than practically all of the deaths in Europe inflicted by Stalin and Hitler combined.

Oh, sure we wiped out the Native Americans, which was mostly Northern Citizens, the South recruitment didn't really start up again, until 1898. But anyway to the point, yes the Japanesse did kill millions and the won't admit it, but we aren't talking about the Japanese. But as for the Germans they weren't sabotaged to believe Hitler, they chose to belive him, he was no Palpatine, before he was in power he said he would kill the Jews. Sure everyone were not Nazis but they were conscripted and fought wholeheartedly.

Sebastin · Post by **Sebastin** » 2002-09-02 07:19pm

I will make no secret of this: That I respect and admire the Waffen SS as a great fighting force of powerful fearless men who would fight to the last (when a common soldier would have given up long ago).

So they were brave sadisitic assholes. Agreed.

With respect to those who died under the Reich that they served, it must be pointed out that only a small number of all the SS ever served in the death camps, and the majority were only soldiers who fought other soldiers on the battlefields of WWII. The vast majority of SS soldiers I am sure knew nothing of the death camps and the masses murdered there.

But you also call yourself Totenkopf, and the Totenkopfbrigaden were those among the SS which exclusively guarded the KZs.And about not knowing about the camps: the SS where the core troops of the NSDAP. They were not even part of the armed forces; they volunteered to be loyal specificly to the nazis, not to germany like the wehrmacht. They knew exactly what was going on.
The only ones who could reasonably claim not to know about the camps were the civilists in germany and even than it was more about not wanting to know and being unable to do something about it. They have seen the jews disapear, they must have wondered what happened to them.
The wehrmacht also fought bravely, most of the soldiers just doing their duty; and for those who wanted to do more, there were elite units in the army which had nothing to do with the political organisations.

RayCav of ASVS · Post by **RayCav of ASVS** » 2002-09-02 07:42pm

Totenkopf means "dead head" when literally translated. As a student of the German language, I should know

Evil Jerk · Post by **Evil Jerk** » 2002-09-02 08:04pm

The only real difference when the organisations as a whole are taken into account is that the Waffen SS was on the losing side of a war in which the allies, being the victors, got to write history as they saw fit.

The SS was more than just a fighting unit though, it is the very symbol of Nazi Germany's twisted beliefs, it's members were to be the aristocracy of the Aryan master race, even if you set aside what they did (impossible) it doesn't change the fact that this organization was FOUNDED on these sick ideals.

Finally, I might add that both the totenkopf insignia and the SS thunderbolt rune predate the Nazis and the third reich by a long period, with the totenkopf being used by prussian soldiers well over 100 years ago, and the thunderbolt rune being an ancient symbol from norse mythology. The Waffen SS merely adopted them.

Just like the Swastika predates Nazism, but it doesn't mean these symbols won't make people uncomfortable, because they do by association.

Lord_Vader · Post by **Lord_Vader** » 2002-09-02 08:44pm

Yes but I am talking about the Japanese and various other groups. You see, by only talking about the Germans you make it seem like they are some kind of great evil. My point in mentioning the others is to show you that virtually every other country or nation has in some point of its history committed some kind of great crime. You cannot just simply ignore it.

Lord_Vader · Post by **Lord_Vader** » 2002-09-02 08:54pm

If on one hand you are going to say that Germans were evil for fighting this war especially the ones who didnt know what was going then you will have to say that the people fighting on the Confederate side were evil. Well they are by your rationale since they were fighting to keep slavery going. Or if we are going to apply the same logic then obviously the Roman Empire was evil for all the wars it fought and and how it promoted slavery and engaged in games of death (gladiator battles). But since most Empires have been run by slavery that means most of human history as well...lets see the Aztecs were clearly evil since they practiced human sacrifice.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-09-02 11:30pm

Every single society until very recently has had some form of slavery. Having slaves does not mean that you are evil. People and societies should be judged based on the standards of the time in which they existed.

lgot · Post by **lgot** » 2002-09-02 11:59pm

Well, for one, the wrongs of one does not justify the wrongs of another.
So, Japanese kills, Russians Massacre, Indians wipe-out, Cortez smash, etc could not justify in any way the mistakes of the nazists.
Apart this, yes, the individual german cannt be blamed. He was under a society and sometimes he might be unware or manipulated to fight and defend their nation. But he is not paying tribute to the individuals. He is not a pic of his grandfather Hans fighting in the war. He is doing a tribute to the group, SS, which include their politics, morals and acts of the leaders and that is where lies the bad taste.
Neither the justification of the fact the Nazists used old symbols. If that was true you should let be clear that, not try to justify a tribute to the SS.
Anything besides this is just a rethorical game...
and only Darth_Wong or the moderators would really matter in this opinion...

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-09-03 12:37am

No, I think that many of the German soldiers who were directly responsible with the Death Camps can be blamed. Mind you, most people (including, I hate to admit, probably myself) would have followed orders, but I think that they must still bear a small portion of responsibility. They were in a position where they potentially could have refused orders, but they did not. I might not have, either, but if I had followed such orders, I also would have blamed myself later for the deaths of those whom I had executed.

lgot · Post by **lgot** » 2002-09-03 12:42am

I am sorry, I mispelled..My intention is to mean the individual youth german said in the previous post, not all individual germans (hence the leaders are individuals)...
But You must be careful...
The normal individual, the commom folk have not such power. The option to refuse is limited by the presence of enemies, the need to defend a family, to the lack of information. You can blame the average soldier, like no one do that actually, for the crimes of a nation or groups who rules the naiton. The power of a society is extremelly limited by many things.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-09-03 02:55am

Couldn't this guy have chosen another elite force apart from the fucking SS? A force which is perhaps not affiliated with the genocide of the III Reich, and not consisting exclusively of racist assholes?

As said before, the SS rune is the very incarnation of all the perversion of the III Reich. I recommend he removes it, although I leave the decision up to Mr Wong.