The Big Bang Theory ends after twelve seasons (spoilers).

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Re: The Big Bang Theory ends after twelve seasons (spoilers).

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-05-18 03:46am

Jub wrote:You literally quoted Fenix saying that FG was an easier sit than TBBT when I asked you for a quote saying that he endorsed it as being of higher quality. Given your response, I'm going to say that you've now conceded on that particular point.
He said he'd rather watch it and that "It's offensiveness and stupidity is "I don't want to do anything productive for 4 hours, let's watch this."- in other words, that he found its misogyny and racism more tolerable, or at least that seems the obvious inference.
Are you now trying to derail the thread by bringing GoT back into it? I dropped that line if you hadn't noticed.
I'll leave it be if everyone else does.
Last edited by The Romulan Republic on 2019-05-18 03:50am, edited 1 time in total.
"Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?"

"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

-Generals Sherman and Grant, the Battle of Shiloh.


"They are nearer to me than the other side, in thought and sentiment, though bitterly hostile personally. They are utterly lawless - the unhandiest devils in the world to deal with - but after all their faces are set Zion-wards."- Lincoln on radical Abolitionists.


"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"-Terry Pratchett's DEATH.


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Re: The Big Bang Theory ends after twelve seasons (spoilers).

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-05-18 03:47am

FaxModem1 wrote:
2019-05-18 03:26am
I think it's mostly because, and this is true for me as well, nerds used to be the punching bag. While geek culture is more mainstream(and yes, there is an obvious remnant of sexism inherent to the culture that we need to work on), this show continues that trend, to the point that those who were like these characters felt like the objects of ridicule by the audience.

As someone once said(on this board even): "Sheldon wears a Green Lantern t-shirt. The audience laughs."

Nerds are meant to be the butt of jokes, and for those who have been those before, it's not funny.
I get that, and there are points where the show definitely veers into the mean-spirited, which I don't like. But I think its a bit more nuanced that its sometimes given credit for.
It's also worthwhile to note that the original concept of the show was that the Penny character(Katie) was meant to be much meaner and exploitative of the nerd characters, with us focusing on more of her exploits to use the guys for her own ends. We can see a scene of that here: link

Notice how Katie is pretty much using the two of them to get a free meal and these two socially awkward losers are fine with it, and we should find that hilarious.

Luckily, audience reaction was much more favorable towards the nerds, and they tweaked the premise a little, but the concept of laughing at the nerds remained. That's why people like me don't really like it.
I don't judge shows so much on what their "original concept" is. All writers go through multiple conceptions while working on a story, they alter it, they refine it, and very often the early drafts, even of classics, are shit, or just plain strange (I'm always reminded of the story that Aragorn in The Lord of the Rings started out as a hobbit with wooden feet called "Trotter"). I wouldn't want to be judged on my first conceptions as a writer, and I won't judge others on them.
"Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?"

"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

-Generals Sherman and Grant, the Battle of Shiloh.


"They are nearer to me than the other side, in thought and sentiment, though bitterly hostile personally. They are utterly lawless - the unhandiest devils in the world to deal with - but after all their faces are set Zion-wards."- Lincoln on radical Abolitionists.


"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"-Terry Pratchett's DEATH.


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Re: The Big Bang Theory ends after twelve seasons (spoilers).

Post by Jub » 2019-05-18 04:38am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-05-18 03:46am
He said he'd rather watch it and that "It's offensiveness and stupidity is "I don't want to do anything productive for 4 hours, let's watch this."- in other words, that he found its misogyny and racism more tolerable, or at least that seems the obvious inference.
I've answered that point with my Iron Man versus 2001 comparison. A show that is an easier sit can be of lesser quality than a show which is measurably better but requires more of the watcher. Thus saying that a show is more watchable is not an endorsement of its quality.

Do you disagree with this point?

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Re: The Big Bang Theory ends after twelve seasons (spoilers).

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-05-18 04:40am

Jub wrote:
2019-05-18 04:38am
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-05-18 03:46am
He said he'd rather watch it and that "It's offensiveness and stupidity is "I don't want to do anything productive for 4 hours, let's watch this."- in other words, that he found its misogyny and racism more tolerable, or at least that seems the obvious inference.
I've answered that point with my Iron Man versus 2001 comparison. A show that is an easier sit can be of lesser quality than a show which is measurably better but requires more of the watcher. Thus saying that a show is more watchable is not an endorsement of its quality.

Do you disagree with this point?
Phrased that way, no, but it did come off as saying that the sexism was less objectionable in Family Guy. If that wasn't the intent behind it, alright.
"Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?"

"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

-Generals Sherman and Grant, the Battle of Shiloh.


"They are nearer to me than the other side, in thought and sentiment, though bitterly hostile personally. They are utterly lawless - the unhandiest devils in the world to deal with - but after all their faces are set Zion-wards."- Lincoln on radical Abolitionists.


"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"-Terry Pratchett's DEATH.


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Re: The Big Bang Theory ends after twelve seasons (spoilers).

Post by Jub » 2019-05-18 04:46am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-05-18 04:40am
Phrased that way, no, but it did come off as saying that the sexism was less objectionable in Family Guy. If that wasn't the intent behind it, alright.
No, it didn't you went looking for it the way you always do. Just concede gracefully for once.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory ends after twelve seasons (spoilers).

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-05-18 04:58am

Jub wrote:
2019-05-18 04:46am
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-05-18 04:40am
Phrased that way, no, but it did come off as saying that the sexism was less objectionable in Family Guy. If that wasn't the intent behind it, alright.
No, it didn't you went looking for it the way you always do. Just concede gracefully for once.
I'm not going to "concede gracefully" to yet another Vendettaish attempt to make every thread I post in about you trying to play the role of my personal moderator by "calling me out" for the things (you say) I "always do".
"Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?"

"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

-Generals Sherman and Grant, the Battle of Shiloh.


"They are nearer to me than the other side, in thought and sentiment, though bitterly hostile personally. They are utterly lawless - the unhandiest devils in the world to deal with - but after all their faces are set Zion-wards."- Lincoln on radical Abolitionists.


"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"-Terry Pratchett's DEATH.


I am a dual citizen of the US and Canada.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory ends after twelve seasons (spoilers).

Post by Jub » 2019-05-18 05:06am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-05-18 04:58am
I'm not going to "concede gracefully" to yet another Vendettaish attempt to make every thread I post in about you trying to play the role of my personal moderator by "calling me out" for the things (you say) I "always do".
You've already conceded the point that watchable =/= better. I was simply offering you the chance to walk away from a debate without looking like an idiot for once.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory ends after twelve seasons (spoilers).

Post by Crazedwraith » 2019-05-18 05:35am

Oh FFS, does everything have to turn into a Jub/TRR shitfest? I wish you'd just shut the hell up.
FaxModem1 wrote: -snip laugh trackless video-
Such classic writing
People always cite this video and have awkward it is without the laughtrack. Well no shit, of course if you remove something the performance is based around its going to seem weird.

You could do that to any comedy with a LT and even the great ones would be worse off for it.
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Re: The Big Bang Theory ends after twelve seasons (spoilers).

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-05-18 05:37am

Crazedwraith wrote:
2019-05-18 05:35am
Oh FFS, does everything have to turn into a Jub/TRR shitfest? I wish you'd just shut the hell up.
I hear you.
FaxModem1 wrote: -snip laugh trackless video-
Such classic writing
People always cite this video and have awkward it is without the laughtrack. Well no shit, of course if you remove something the performance is based around its going to seem weird.

You could do that to any comedy with a LT and even the great ones would be worse off for it.
That's a good point.
"Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?"

"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

-Generals Sherman and Grant, the Battle of Shiloh.


"They are nearer to me than the other side, in thought and sentiment, though bitterly hostile personally. They are utterly lawless - the unhandiest devils in the world to deal with - but after all their faces are set Zion-wards."- Lincoln on radical Abolitionists.


"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"-Terry Pratchett's DEATH.


I am a dual citizen of the US and Canada.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory ends after twelve seasons (spoilers).

Post by Jub » 2019-05-18 05:44am

Crazedwraith wrote:
2019-05-18 05:35am
Oh FFS, does everything have to turn into a Jub/TRR shitfest? I wish you'd just shut the hell up.
*bows* Always happy to entertain.

Also, this one would have been quicker had TRR not missed the point Fenix was making by bringing up Family Guy in the first place.
People always cite this video and have awkward it is without the laughtrack. Well no shit, of course if you remove something the performance is based around its going to seem weird.

You could do that to any comedy with a LT and even the great ones would be worse off for it.
Doesn't that say something damning about any media that uses a laugh track then? After all, if it cannot stand without such a crutch that just means it was built on a weak foundation.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory ends after twelve seasons (spoilers).

Post by Themightytom » 2019-05-18 05:45am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-05-17 03:56am
The long-running sit-com "The Big Bang Theory" has come to an end (Good God, a lot of big series are coming to an end this year, if you include Endgame and Star Wars Episode IX as "endings"). The show was beloved by many, and pilloried by others for sexism and mocking nerds (I regard both criticisms as deserved at points, although the quality of the show, and the extent to which its comedy veered into being mean-spirited or prejudiced, varied greatly over its run).

[/spoiler]


Here's the final scene if anyone's curious (spoilers, obviously): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFJdSf7yUUE
It definitely had it's moments, but I think it lived long enough to be noticed and then villified. I'd give it similiar credit as Galaxy Quest for introducing subculture, but I'd also deduct that credit for introducing subculture in a way that re-enforces it as sub culture.

The Fish out of water schtick is basically every sit com, and ultimately the dynamic between Sheldon and Leonard carried the premise long enough for Penny to find a role that was anything more than eye candy. I'd give her credit for doing so, because her own social awkwardness and insecurities emerged several times. While she was initially just hot girl next door, she had a shitty job, compared to Leonard and Sheldon, and a lot of family drama too, which levelled the social playing field.

Leonard always struck me as a self absorded whiner, and it took me a while to realize that was the whole point of him. Sheldon was the indifferent one-lining, awesome T shirt wearing social observer for a while until he was around long enough to stop being funny for those reasons, and start to actually make personal changes. Howard and Raj are... Like extremely uncomfortable racial stereotypes for me. I also didn't really like the cultural tokenism they represented, I mean, was the show diverse because they added an Indian and a Jew?
I didn't actually like Amy OR Bernadette's character either, and the show has never really captured me, even if I put my time in. It was better than a lot of crap out there, when I had cable, but like many others I made the jump to streaming shows and at that point, never watched an episode unless it was suggested to me as a particularly funny one.

It had its cameos, I have to say the real MVP of the show was just Sheldon's T shirt collection.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory ends after twelve seasons (spoilers).

Post by Crazedwraith » 2019-05-18 05:51am

Jub wrote:
2019-05-18 05:44am
Crazedwraith wrote:
2019-05-18 05:35am
Oh FFS, does everything have to turn into a Jub/TRR shitfest? I wish you'd just shut the hell up.
*bows* Always happy to entertain.

Also, this one would have been quicker had TRR not missed the point Fenix was making by bringing up Family Guy in the first place.[\quote]
I don't give a shit. If I wasn't clear before: shut the fuck up.
People always cite this video and have awkward it is without the laughtrack. Well no shit, of course if you remove something the performance is based around its going to seem weird.

You could do that to any comedy with a LT and even the great ones would be worse off for it.
Doesn't that say something damning about any media that uses a laugh track then? After all, if it cannot stand without such a crutch that just means it was built on a weak foundation.
No, if the performance is based around the laugh track either recorded or live from an audience then it's going to be weird if you then strip the track off it after the fact, regardless of the quality of the show or writing.

The real judge is if you performed the same script with out the pausing and delivery built around the laugh track would it be good?
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Re: The Big Bang Theory ends after twelve seasons (spoilers).

Post by Jub » 2019-05-18 05:59am

Crazedwraith wrote:
2019-05-18 05:51am
No, if the performance is based around the laugh track either recorded or live from an audience then it's going to be weird if you then strip the track off it after the fact, regardless of the quality of the show or writing.

The real judge is if you performed the same script with out the pausing and delivery built around the laugh track would it be good?
You're talking about the performance of a completed piece and in doing so missing the point. The point I'm making is that using a laugh track, or earlier a studio audience, to enhance your script is and always has been a lazy cheat. Sitcoms and other single-camera shows filmed on a sound stage are all pretty cheaply and lazily made and because of this they need some way to fake a connection with their audience.

Look at the writing of a TV comedy that doesn't use a laugh track, the early seasons on the Simpsons should suffice for this purpose, and ask yourself, would this scene be enhanced by a laugh track? Given that the answer will always be no, the scene was funny as performed, why shouldn't we hold all comedy to the same standard?

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Re: The Big Bang Theory ends after twelve seasons (spoilers).

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-05-18 06:06am

Themightytom wrote:
2019-05-18 05:45am
It definitely had it's moments, but I think it lived long enough to be noticed and then villified. I'd give it similiar credit as Galaxy Quest for introducing subculture, but I'd also deduct that credit for introducing subculture in a way that re-enforces it as sub culture.
That's fair, yes.
The Fish out of water schtick is basically every sit com, and ultimately the dynamic between Sheldon and Leonard carried the premise long enough for Penny to find a role that was anything more than eye candy. I'd give her credit for doing so, because her own social awkwardness and insecurities emerged several times. While she was initially just hot girl next door, she had a shitty job, compared to Leonard and Sheldon, and a lot of family drama too, which levelled the social playing field.
Yup. Though I do feel that Penny and Leonard both became less likable as the show went on, at times. Leonard became bitter over his relationship problems with Penny and increasingly sexist, Penny became bitter over her career failures and unable to commit to a relationship, and it became increasingly hard to see them as two people who really loved each other or had much chemistry.

Sheldon is one of those lovable characters who exists to deliver clever one-liners and point out when the rest of the cast are being dip shits. Like Spike on Buffy.
Leonard always struck me as a self absorded whiner, and it took me a while to realize that was the whole point of him. Sheldon was the indifferent one-lining, awesome T shirt wearing social observer for a while until he was around long enough to stop being funny for those reasons, and start to actually make personal changes. Howard and Raj are... Like extremely uncomfortable racial stereotypes for me. I also didn't really like the cultural tokenism they represented, I mean, was the show diverse because they added an Indian and a Jew?
Howard actually had a decent arc as the show went on, from being "the pervert" to actually developing a more mature relationship and family. Also going into space. It doesn't hurt that Simon Helberg is a pretty good comic actor.

Raj... it seemed like they didn't know what to do with him. His character was pretty much "Indian, nerd, can't socialize successfully with women", and he never really grew beyond that, at least not to the point that I stopped paying much attention. His biggest growth was... being able to talk to women without being drunk. Yeah.
I didn't actually like Amy OR Bernadette's character either, and the show has never really captured me, even if I put my time in. It was better than a lot of crap out there, when I had cable, but like many others I made the jump to streaming shows and at that point, never watched an episode unless it was suggested to me as a particularly funny one.

It had its cameos, I have to say the real MVP of the show was just Sheldon's T shirt collection.
Amy and Bernadette added a bit more gender balance, so it wasn't just about Penny and a group of guys panting after her. It shook up the show when it was starting to become stale, and gave Penny her own circle of friends who were more than bit parts. Amy's relationship with Sheldon also lead to some big character development for both of them, even if you can argue that it ultimately made them more conventional characters.
"Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?"

"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

-Generals Sherman and Grant, the Battle of Shiloh.


"They are nearer to me than the other side, in thought and sentiment, though bitterly hostile personally. They are utterly lawless - the unhandiest devils in the world to deal with - but after all their faces are set Zion-wards."- Lincoln on radical Abolitionists.


"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"-Terry Pratchett's DEATH.


I am a dual citizen of the US and Canada.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory ends after twelve seasons (spoilers).

Post by FaxModem1 » 2019-05-18 07:22am

Crazedwraith wrote:
2019-05-18 05:35am
FaxModem1 wrote: -snip laugh trackless video-
Such classic writing
People always cite this video and have awkward it is without the laughtrack. Well no shit, of course if you remove something the performance is based around its going to seem weird.

You could do that to any comedy with a LT and even the great ones would be worse off for it.
Let's try a counter example, Seinfeld.



Note how the humor still kinda works. The characters are still funny, if not a bit quirky, and it becomes much more dry.
Image

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Re: The Big Bang Theory ends after twelve seasons (spoilers).

Post by Solauren » 2019-05-18 11:55am

Never really watched the show with any regularity.

Quite frankly, I'm surprised that someone didn't actually murder Sheldon...
Or that Amy didn't give him the 'heavy-ho'

Still it was mostly enjoyable.
\

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Re: The Big Bang Theory ends after twelve seasons (spoilers).

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-05-19 04:02am

Solauren wrote:
2019-05-18 11:55am
Never really watched the show with any regularity.

Quite frankly, I'm surprised that someone didn't actually murder Sheldon...
Or that Amy didn't give him the 'heavy-ho'
She did for a bit.

IIRC they broke up for a while a few seasons back before they got back together.

Which was pretty big character development for Amy, because she started out as someone who was basically unhealthily desperate for any form of human contact or affection whatsoever.
"Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?"

"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

-Generals Sherman and Grant, the Battle of Shiloh.


"They are nearer to me than the other side, in thought and sentiment, though bitterly hostile personally. They are utterly lawless - the unhandiest devils in the world to deal with - but after all their faces are set Zion-wards."- Lincoln on radical Abolitionists.


"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"-Terry Pratchett's DEATH.


I am a dual citizen of the US and Canada.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory ends after twelve seasons (spoilers).

Post by Solauren » 2019-05-19 09:02am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-05-19 04:02am
Solauren wrote:
2019-05-18 11:55am
Never really watched the show with any regularity.

Quite frankly, I'm surprised that someone didn't actually murder Sheldon...
Or that Amy didn't give him the 'heavy-ho'
She did for a bit.

IIRC they broke up for a while a few seasons back before they got back together.

Which was pretty big character development for Amy, because she started out as someone who was basically unhealthily desperate for any form of human contact or affection whatsoever.
I meant 'permanent' heav-ho'.
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Re: The Big Bang Theory ends after twelve seasons (spoilers).

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-05-22 05:33am

Couldn't have blamed her if she had.

In other news, TBBT smashed Game of Thrones' finale at 18.5 to 13.61 million viewers (though it is fair to note that fewer people have HBO, and that when you factor in reruns and streaming, GoT only lost by .1 million):

https://www.ctvnews.ca/entertainment/bi ... -1.4431304
"Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?"

"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

-Generals Sherman and Grant, the Battle of Shiloh.


"They are nearer to me than the other side, in thought and sentiment, though bitterly hostile personally. They are utterly lawless - the unhandiest devils in the world to deal with - but after all their faces are set Zion-wards."- Lincoln on radical Abolitionists.


"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"-Terry Pratchett's DEATH.


I am a dual citizen of the US and Canada.

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