NCAA College Football: Sanction PSU?

[Col. Crackpot]

@FST
The people there don't realize that to the rest of the world they look like a creepy cult of pedophile apologists.

[FSTargetDrone]

@FST
The people there don't realize that to the rest of the world they look like a creepy cult of pedophile apologists.

Yep. I just wish Paterno had still been alive when the decision came down to erase part of his record. He may not have ultimately been convicted of any crime, but it would have been a hell of a blow. One he deserves.

The Paterno family released a statement a short time ago:

Paterno family statement on NCAA ruling

JUL 23
2:07 PM ET
By Brian Bennett | ESPN.com

You knew this was coming. The Paterno family has issued its own statement in the wake of the announcement of severe NCAA sanctions against Penn State, which include stripping dozens of wins off Joe Paterno's coaching record. Here's the statement by the family in its entirety:

"Sexual abuse is reprehensible, especially when it involves children, and no one starting with Joe Paterno condones or minimizes it. The horrific acts committed by Jerry Sandusky shock the conscience of every decent human being. How Sandusky was able to get away with his crimes for so long has yet to be fully understood, despite the claims and assertions of the Freeh report.

"The release of the Freeh report has triggered an avalanche of vitriol, condemnation and posthumous punishment on Joe Paterno. The NCAA has now become the latest party to accept the report as the final word on the Sandusky scandal. The sanctions announced by the NCAA today defame the legacy and contributions of a great coach and educator without any input from our family or those who knew him best.

"That the President, the Athletic Director and the Board of Trustees accepted this unprecedented action by the NCAA without requiring a full due process hearing before the Committee on Infractions is an abdication of their responsibilities and a breach of their fiduciary duties to the University and the 500,000 alumni. Punishing past, present and future students of the University because of Sandusky’s crimes does not serve justice. This is not a fair or thoughtful action; it is a panicked response to the public's understandable revulsion at what Sandusky did.

"The point of due process is to protect against this sort of reflexive action. Joe Paterno was never interviewed by the University or the Freeh Group. His counsel has not been able to interview key witnesses as they are represented by counsel related to ongoing litigation. We have had no access to the records reviewed by the Freeh group. The NCAA never contacted our family or our legal counsel. And the fact that several parties have pending trials that could produce evidence and testimony relevant to this matter has been totally discounted.

"Unfortunately all of these facts have been ignored by the NCAA, the Freeh Group and the University."

The family just needs to go away. Be quiet and go away.

[Tsyroc]

Tsyroc in this case for whatever reason the Big Ten felt the need to announce theconference title ban, maybe conference bylaws are different? But the Big 10 is also taking away PSUs share of bowl revenue.

These were tough sanctions, the financial penalties make it in my mind equivalent to a death penalty plus the way this is set up the football players will get to transfer.

What a disgusting pile of shit this whole thing is.

It's definitely going to be tough for them to field a team that 100,000+ people are going to want to fill a stadium and see.

I'm sort of feeling sorry for Nebraska in this whole mess because Penn State is their protected cross-over rival.

On a related note the Leaders division of the Big Ten has two teams banned from post season play this year. I guess this is the year that the Big Ten could send a crap team to the conference title game. It's cool to see them play spoiler but when they just get spanked it's just a waste of a game.

[Col. Crackpot]

[Samuel l jackson] well, allow me to retort [/samuel l jackson]
Dear Paterno family, if your beloved JoPa was still alive he'd have been indicted for being an accessory after the fact. Furthermore go fuck yourselves.

Sincerely,
everyone outside of Pennsylvania

[Block]

Tsyroc in this case for whatever reason the Big Ten felt the need to announce theconference title ban, maybe conference bylaws are different? But the Big 10 is also taking away PSUs share of bowl revenue.

The CCGs aren't technically considered post-season play, since not every conference has one. USC was banned from the initial game by the PAC-12, not by the sanctions.

[Gandalf]

Why is the statue in a "secure location" as opposed to just being destroyed?

Will be be returned somewhere when this all blows over?

[FSTargetDrone]

Why is the statue in a "secure location" as opposed to just being destroyed?

Will be be returned somewhere when this all blows over?

The statue was paid for by donations and so I suppose its owner is the school which it would be within its rights to destroy it, but I seriously doubt the school board will dare to further anger the alumni and family by melting it down or scrapping it. They surely can't display it anywhere else right now and so they are stuck with it. If they give it to the family, they will almost surely put it on display on their own, so the school is stuck with it for now.

[Sea Skimmer]

I'm sure they fully intend to return it to display, though in a relatively discreet location, in a few years.

[FSTargetDrone]

I'm sure they fully intend to return it to display, though in a relatively discreet location, in a few years.

And as soon as they do that, it will become a pilgrimage site again. I don't think there is a place discreet enough in Happy Valley.

[Darth Fanboy]

The CCGs aren't technically considered post-season play, since not every conference has one. USC was banned from the initial game by the PAC-12, not by the sanctions.

Correct but as I said what I'm not sure about is if said ban was automatic (conference rule saying ineligble bowl schools can't compete in title game) or an individual decision. It might even be an NCAA rule for conferences.

[Sea Skimmer]

And as soon as they do that, it will become a pilgrimage site again. I don't think there is a place discreet enough in Happy Valley.

I fully agree, that's why personally I think a five year suspension of the program would have been a good move among other sanctions to really just try to root out the entire insanity, but not going to happen now. A pilgrimage again is also what they'll want, the only reason I think they'll even bother to put it in a discreet location is to try to keep it out of the media eye and act like it isn't such a big deal to everyone who isn't a isn't so brain dead. Putting it back at the stadium would make them look really dumb, and they are just smart enough not to be that dumb.

[Mr Bean]

I've been following this loosely but what I've learned today is that harboring and supporting a child molester for over a dacade won't get you the death penalty but sneaking your players money and benefits will.

Good to know that the NCAA would rather I rape children than pay my players on the down low to play.

[Elfdart]

I'd like to see a sports reporter look up Eric Dickerson or Craig James and ask them how it must feel to be worse than a child rapist for getting paid by alumni.

For those who don't want to waste time googling their names, James, Dickerson and other SMU players got cars, cash apartments and more from school alumni. So much so that Dickerson, during a contract dispute with the tightwad Rams, joked that he took a pay cut by turning pro and joining such a cheapskate team.

There was a very good documentary about the whole SMU scandal on ESPN -I can't recommend it enough.

[Tsyroc]

I'd like to see a sports reporter look up Eric Dickerson or Craig James and ask them how it must feel to be worse than a child rapist for getting paid by alumni.

For those who don't want to waste time googling their names, James, Dickerson and other SMU players got cars, cash apartments and more from school alumni. So much so that Dickerson, during a contract dispute with the tightwad Rams, joked that he took a pay cut by turning pro and joining such a cheapskate team.

There was a very good documentary about the whole SMU scandal on ESPN -I can't recommend it enough.

C'mon, that Trans Am was Dickerson's grandmother's car. At least I think he used to joke that it was. I also thought I read that the car had actually been a gift from a booster of another Texas school that Dickerson decided not to attend. Of course, that could have been another story as well. It would be funny if it were true.

I think ESPN did one of their 30 for 30 shows on the SMU death penalty.

What I found amusing about the SMU case was that they got busted for the slush fund payments and were in the process of getting rid of it but they decided to do it gradually instead of instantly. They felt that they should uphold their end of the bargain with the players who agreed to come to the school because of the payments. So because they didn't stop it immediately they were caught when investigated again and that's when the hammer came down.

[Darth Fanboy]

I've been following this loosely but what I've learned today is that harboring and supporting a child molester for over a dacade won't get you the death penalty but sneaking your players money and benefits will.

Good to know that the NCAA would rather I rape children than pay my players on the down low to play.

The "Death Penalty" has been so far from the table for an NCAA football ever since it turned SMU from powerhouse into complete and utter laughingstock. I think the NCAA is afraid of using it on a program in any of their more prominent sports at any prominent school ever again, which is for better or for worse YMMV.

However, the financial repercussions of this are huge. I don't think the NCAA has ever levied a fine nearly like the $60 million Penn State got, and the loss of bowl revenue over 4 years (projected to be $13 million) is big too. So while they didn't give the two year death penalty they did spread the sanctions out over 4 years which makes things worse. I for one think there's some truth to the rumor that by deciding to remove the statue they got cut a little bit of a break. Also, the vacated wins are a big deal since they eliminated Paterno's name from being at the top of their record books. Wins vacated on that scale are unprecedented (although I would support the argument that "vacating" means jack shit except for the fact Paterno is no longer the all time winningest coach now which is technically something sorta.) Losing 20 scholarship players for 4 years will gut the team also.

All that being said, when you look at this on a sliding scale compared to Ohio State and USC, you wonder what it would take for a program to get suspended.

[Darth Fanboy]

Addition to the previous post:

Just to show how close PSU was to the "death penalty", here's an article which gives some background to the recent decision.

UNIVERSITY PARK — Faced with the prospect of the death penalty for his school’s football program, Rodney Erickson signed the agreement announced Monday by the NCAA calling for severe sanctions against Penn State.

Those penalties include the loss of scholarships for football, a four-year postseason ban and NCAA probation for five years, a $60 million fine and the vacating of all wins from 1998 through 2011. Those sanctions were based on the Freeh report concerning Penn State’s reaction to the Jerry Sandusky child sex abuse scandal, including a reported cover-up by top university officials.

But the football program will not be shut down — a very real possibility, the university president said.

Erickson, board of trustees Chairwoman Karen Peetz and interim Athletic Director David Joyner addressed the NCAA penalties and Penn State’s planned response in an interview with the Centre Daily Times.

“We had our backs to the wall on this,” Erickson said. “We did what we thought was necessary to save the program.”

Erickson said he signed the agreement with the NCAA Sunday night. The next morning, NCAA President Mark Emmert detailed the sanctions during a news conference in Indianapolis.

Erickson said he conferred with his closest advisers and members of the board of trustees. He said he also considered concerns he heard from the local community that a football shutdown could be devastating.

“This is the decision you make: Accept the consent decree or the (NCAA) board will go in another direction,” Erickson said. “So we accepted that, and I signed it on behalf of the university (Sunday) night.”

“I think, generally speaking, that the community felt that playing was better than not playing,” Peetz said.

Erickson said Penn State could have faced a multiyear shutdown of football and still would have endured additional penalties had he not taken the NCAA’s terms.

“I accepted this consent decree on behalf of the university, knowing that if we did not accept the sanctions we most surely would have faced the death penalty for football over multiple years and the prospects of additional sanctions,” he said. “I felt, after conferring with board leadership and others, that it was in the best interest of the university to accept the sanctions that were offered rather than have the death penalty imposed on Penn State.”

He added: “I thought we’ll be able to recover more quickly from these sanctions than we would from the death penalty over the course of a number of years.”

Erickson called the penalties an “unprecedented set of sanctions by the NCAA.”

But, he said, “This, while severe, does still allow us to play.”

Later Monday in an interview with ESPN, NCAA Executive Committee Chairman Ed Ray denied the NCAA had threatened Penn State with a football suspension in any way.

“I’ve known Rod for a long time. I didn’t hear what he said. I was on a plane flying back to Oregon.

“But I can tell you categorically, there was never a threat made to anyone about suspension of play if the consent decree was not agreed to,” he said.

When questioned whether the NCAA had essentially said, “Take this deal or we’re shutting you down,” Ray said, “That was never even a point of discussion within either the Executive Committee or the Division I board.”

The $60 million fine will be paid over five years, Joyner said. Erickson said no taxpayer dollars will be used to meet the fine.

The money will go to organizations that work to prevent or address child abuse.

“We have a reserve fund which will be utilized,” Joyner said. “Beyond that, in order to complete the $60 million, we’ll have to look at our (athletics) capital maintenance budget and other budget items that we have that we can adjust and delay perhaps.”

The NCAA agreement dictates that other non-revenue sports must not suffer because of the football sanctions.

“All of our existing sports will not be penalized as a result of this action,” Erickson said. “And this represents an opportunity for us to turn the page, to move forward and really start a new chapter for Penn State athletics, and football in particular.”

Sandusky, Penn State’s former defensive coordinator, was convicted in June on 45 counts of child sexual abuse.

The Freeh report, issued July 12, said former Penn State President Graham Spanier, the late Joe Paterno, former Vice President for Finance Gary Schultz and Athletics Director Tim Curley were aware of Sandusky’s actions but worked together to keep the situation secret.

Curley and Schultz are awaiting trial on charges of perjury and failure to report a crime. A hearing in the case is scheduled for Aug. 16.

“As we evaluated the situation, the victims affected by Jerry Sandusky and the efforts by many to conceal his crimes informed our actions,” Emmert said in announcing the sanctions. “At our core, we are educators. Penn State leadership lost sight of that.”

Erickson pledged that Penn State will quickly begin incorporating the recommendations of the Freeh report, including greater oversight of athletics generally and football in particular.

“It isn’t just athletics. It’s the whole university,” Joyner said. “It’s about instilling a culture of accountability in the moment, and being accountable for doing the right thing at the right time, always.”

[Mr Bean]

However, the financial repercussions of this are huge. I don't think the NCAA has ever levied a fine nearly like the $60 million Penn State got, and the loss of bowl revenue over 4 years (projected to be $13 million) is big too. So while they didn't give the two year death penalty they did spread the sanctions out over 4 years which makes things worse.

As pointed out on TYT, the University has over 1.2 billion dollars in it's endowment and it's received over a hundred million in donations in the last seven years and with this fine I have no question the PSU alumni who defend it are going to cut the check to cover it before it even touches the University and it will be done quietly and while PSU will moan and complain in public the fine will be a tiny blip on the balance books. You forget the team is not banned from playing football, they did not get the death penalty. And what this whole sad episode has demonstrated how much people defend their own from almost any charge. So here we are with the team still going on the field this/next year. Still playing games VS other teams and still making money. Sure they won't go to the championships but do you think that will matter when they still get a regular season? There will be a team out there, it will be cheered and no lessons will be learned as the culture won't change. Nothing short of a six year ban to provide time for all normal students to graduate and move on and an entire generation to go through with no team would be enough to fix the problem. As long as they got to keep playing Football in any way and be recognized the underlying problem of Sports above all would not be fixed.

All that being said, when you look at this on a sliding scale compared to Ohio State and USC, you wonder what it would take for a program to get suspended.

We know what it takes, it takes giving the college players payment for services rendered to get your program suspended that's the point of Elfdart's post and my reference. Doing nice things for your players that's against league rules gets your program axed for a year.

[Darth Fanboy]

As pointed out on TYT, the University has over 1.2 billion dollars in it's endowment and it's received over a hundred million in donations in the last seven years and with this fine I have no question the PSU alumni who defend it are going to cut the check to cover it before it even touches the University and it will be done quietly and while PSU will moan and complain in public the fine will be a tiny blip on the balance books.

PSU is not moaning and complaining in public, they readily accepted the sanctions per the previous article I posted to avoid the death penalty altogether. The fine is not a tiny blip to the Athletic Department, and since we are only talking about the athletic department and not the whole of the school it's going to make up a bigger part of the budget. Aside from the obvious decreases in revenue Penn State will be paying that $60 million over five years. It's not as back breaking for PSU as it would be for a smaller school, but it's more than you are making it out to be.

You forget the team is not banned from playing football, they did not get the death penalty.

I'll stop you right there to just say that, no I didn't forget and nobody else in here did. We share a lot of common ground on our stance for this aside from a few things and i'll thank you for not trying to misrepresent my interpretation of events just so you can condescendingly make a point.

And what this whole sad episode has demonstrated how much people defend their own from almost any charge.

It also shows that even legends can be taken down if someone has the guts to stand up to them. Before this scandal, nobody would have thought Joe Paterno's legacy could ever crumble like this for any reason. The statue is down and outside of Happy Valley you don't see too many people backing Paterno anymore. The misguided displays of school spirit are fewer and further between and public sentiment is lopsidedly against the people responsible for this cover up.[/quote]

So here we are with the team still going on the field this/next year. Still playing games VS other teams and still making money. Sure they won't go to the championships but do you think that will matter when they still get a regular season? There will be a team out there, it will be cheered and no lessons will be learned as the culture won't change. Nothing short of a six year ban to provide time for all normal students to graduate and move on and an entire generation to go through with no team would be enough to fix the problem. As long as they got to keep playing Football in any way and be recognized the underlying problem of Sports above all would not be fixed.

With Ohio State in the midst of a one year ban, Penn State was primed this year with only Wisconsin as a serious threat to keep them from the Big 10 title game, which is a major opportunity lost. They have also lost Paterno's record, which was an amazing claim to fame. I think we can agree that Penn State could have been punished more, but let's not take a justified loathing for Sandusky and Paterno and turn it into a blind seething rage for all things Penn State without at least having perspective. This is still a pretty damn steep sanction, especially for a school that was realistically one game away from one of the top bowls in the country and conceivably a national championship contender.

I think you underestimate how important the chance to play for a championship is in not only generating money, but also in getting recruits (which they are going to have a tougher time with having 20 fewer scholarships for four years). One notable PSU recruit might be still committing to the program (a highly touted QB recruited before the scandal broke) but not only will the pool of future talent be depleted, but top players are already rumored to be ready to bolt for other schools. The ability to win is severely diminished.

But a five or six year ban? Even I think that's too steep and i'm on the record in this thread as pro-death penalty in this thread.

We know what it takes, it takes giving the college players payment for services rendered to get your program suspended that's the point of Elfdart's post and my reference. Doing nice things for your players that's against league rules gets your program axed for a year.

As I said previously, I think the absolute decimation of the SMU program (which got the Death Penalty after years of warnings and probation from the NCAA had already been issued) has made the NCAA completely gun-shy about doing this to another program in a major sport. A couple of DII/DIII schools have had it for far less prominent sports, and Kentucky dodged the Death Penalty in the late 80's because the then-President stepped in and took quick corrective measures (quick enough to satisfy the NCAA anyways, I still think that department is crooked as shit). Again, I say this is for better or for worse because there are people out there who would argue that NCAA sanctions too frequently impact people not involved with the infraction (which I think is true on a case by case basis, but not as a general rule.)

I still think were it up to me that PSU would have gotten a 2 year Death Penalty, with a two year postseason ban tacked on. I agree with that, but that is not to say that this still isn't a pretty steep penalty. While I disagree with it, Penn State avoided the DP because the NCAA took the local economy into consideration. I'd gladly hear your take on that.

[Elfdart]

C'mon, that Trans Am was Dickerson's grandmother's car. At least I think he used to joke that it was. I also thought I read that the car had actually been a gift from a booster of another Texas school that Dickerson decided not to attend. Of course, that could have been another story as well. It would be funny if it were true.

IIRC, Texas A&M gave Mrs Dickerson a car (though it was a tricked-out sports car, obviously meant for her son), but SMU wanted him so bad that alumni bought a better one for Eric, getting him to change his mind and play there. The other school's boosters were shit outta luck because it's not like they could complain or anything...

I think ESPN did one of their 30 for 30 shows on the SMU death penalty.

That's the one.



You can watch the whole show here.

What I found amusing about the SMU case was that they got busted for the slush fund payments and were in the process of getting rid of it but they decided to do it gradually instead of instantly. They felt that they should uphold their end of the bargain with the players who agreed to come to the school because of the payments. So because they didn't stop it immediately they were caught when investigated again and that's when the hammer came down.

What really bit SMU in the ass was that they were Johnny-come-latelys from a nuveau riche city that the rest of the country loved to hate. DFW was booming at a time when the Rust Belt was in full decay. There wasn't a prime-time soap opera called Cleveland or Scranton or Detroit back then. The other schools recruiting players from the state also resented getting their toes stepped on by a bunch of tacky, newly rich assclowns with more $100 bills than brain cells. It used to be Texas and Oklahoma divvied up the best players in DFW, leaving the rest for SMU, TCU and other schools. Now you have SMU poaching from them? The horror of it all!

Personally, I think the pearl-clutching over gifts to players was -and still is- silly. More so when compared to looking the other way when a coach is raping kids. I always found the one-upsmanship between good ole boys hilarious. My favorite was the coach who, when caught cheating (I can't remember which coach because let's face it, they ALL cheated) was asked by a concern-trolling reporter if he wasn't ashamed of being caught and his deadpan was "Not as ashamed as I'd be if I was caught losing to TCU!"

What also helped finish off SMU in the late 80s was the Oil Glut of 86-88, when prices crashed and suddenly the JR Ewing wannabes didn't have nearly as much money burning holes in their pockets. The city boomed when gasoline hit $1 a gallon in 1979, but for a few months in 86-87, it was 25 cents a gallon with cash only stations selling for 19 cents/gallon.

[Tsyroc]

Isn't one of the reasons that the NCAA has been so gun shy on giving FBS programs the death penalty because it's widely thought that giving it to SMU helped kill the Southwestern Conference? I don't think the Big Ten was at risk of breaking up if Penn State got shut down for several years but I can see where some of the current conferences might be at risk of flying apart if one of the marquee teams was all of a sudden off the board. The Big XII seems to be in pretty good shape right now but if they lost Texas or Oklahoma for a few years that might be kind of rough, not that most of the rest of the teams have anywhere better to go. I could certainly see the Big East or the ACC cracking under pressure because they've been kind of doing it lately as it is.

[Vympel]

I've been following this on and off, very pleased to hear about the results, completely appropriate decision. One blog about it that made me laugh:-

After the Freeh Report hit, even the most die-hard of Joe Paterno fans remained quiet in light of damning evidence that showed he not only went along with “humanely” allowing Jerry Sandusky to walk free to protect the university but also knew of a prior 1998 incident making his actions (or inaction if we’re splitting hairs) in 2002 even more despicable. That all ended this weekend when word got out that Penn State was having Paterno’s statue removed (Which it did without incident Sunday morning) and fans flocked to have their picture taken and cry over a man who let kids gets raped because FOOTBALL. Ironically, some of them threatened to barricade the statue with their bodies which is more than Joe Paterno did to stop child rape, but I’m sure he was just busy being the winningest coach ever. Except, surprise, he’s not anymore because the NCAA just vacated all of Penn State’s wins from 1998 to 2011 this morning.

[Civil War Man]

In some ways, the punishment PSU received could be a bigger hit to their football program than if they received a 2-year death penalty. Either way, you'll get players vacating the school for other colleges, especially since the circumstances allow current players to retain their scholarships if they transfer to another school. No one with serious pro aspirations will stick around, regardless of whether the program no longer exists, or if the program exists but isn't allowed to participate in the bowl games.

However, if they got a 2-year death penalty, they can just plan ahead and shift their focus on the freshmen and sophomore players in high school. With a 4-year bowl ban, sending out scouts to check out promising high school players is completely pointless, because now the only players who'd be able to play for PSU without spending at least a year on a team ineligible for bowl play are in 8th grade.

So even though they can still field a football team, the longer duration of the actual punishment could easily hurt the program more than a shorter-term shutdown.

EDIT: And, just to be clear, I see this as a good thing. A harsher punishment in this case is a much more effective warning to other schools.

[RogueIce]

Ironically, some of them threatened to barricade the statue with their bodies which is more than Joe Paterno did to stop child rape, but I’m sure he was just busy being the winningest coach ever.

That's probably why the university took the "cowardly way" in sending out crews early without telling anyone or making an announcement. Even still according to the reports I saw they had a bunch of cops on hand anyway, just in case.

And on a follow up to it, they apparently tore down the wall behind where the statue went, so I'm guessing that means now the entire "memorial" or "tribute" or whatever it was is gone now.

EDIT: Link to story

This comment stood out:

“I imagine in a few years maybe the things that JoePa has done will come back to the surface and he’ll get his wins back when people come to their senses,” said the man.

No, how about he never gets his wins back, mmmkay?

If "people had come to their senses" back in 1998 maybe this wouldn't be an issue today? But nah, let's revere JoePa some more.

[FSTargetDrone]

This comment stood out:

“I imagine in a few years maybe the things that JoePa has done will come back to the surface and he’ll get his wins back when people come to their senses,” said the man.

No, how about he never gets his wins back, mmmkay?

If "people had come to their senses" back in 1998 maybe this wouldn't be an issue today? But nah, let's revere JoePa some more.

There is no way his wins will be restored. That is simply not going to happen.

[Darth Fanboy]

Is there any precedent for vacated wins being restored to a team even? I don't think the NCAA would do that without some pretty extreme circumstances.