The Borgias season 2

[Chirios]

Has anybody been watching this? It's not fantasy so I wasn't sure where to put it. I really like it so far.

[Thanas]

This is the right forum.

I still wait for the show to take that final step. More della Rovere and more French king, please.

[FaxModem1]

I've gotten into it. It's a pleasure to watch.

[Alyrium Denryle]

This is the right forum.

I still wait for the show to take that final step. More della Rovere and more French king, please.

I am waiting for Juan to die in some sort of horrific agony. I know it will happen. I just want to know how and who kills him.

[Thanas]

Well, history already provides the answer to that....

[TC Pilot]

Yeah, it seems pretty clear to me where the show's headed vis a vis Juan Borgia... though they might try throwing a curveball. It's not like these shows don't already play fast and loose with history.

I gotta agree with the sentiment on the French king. His accent when he tries to pronounce Italian names (especially della Rovere) is just hilarious.

[Vympel]

I'm liking this season a lot - especially the latest episode with the clay cannons

[Thanas]

I also think that Jeremy Irons is the only thing that prevents his role (as it is written) from being an utter joke.

[TC Pilot]

I think that's what I dislike most about the series. They're bumbling, not Machiavellian, which is odd, given that the show has been billed as The Godfather in the Renaissance.

I went in expecting something like I, Claudius but instead got something more like Tudors with a touch of Blackadder.

[Thanas]

Yeah. They are just not that smart, especially not in long-term planning. They make enemies of every power foreign and domestic.


I also find it hard to believe that a guy who got the position due to massive bribery and wealth suddenly would not know about the state of the finances of his regime, nor that he would not know how expensive and labour/time-intenive making cannons would be.

Frankly, the less said about the utter idiocy about the clay cannons episodes (like how the walls would have been unable to handle the recoil or how such cannons could not be purchased in such a short time) the better.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Well, history already provides the answer to that....

Yes, but the show is not completely accurate and they might throw the history nerds a curve ball vis-a-vis how and whom. The time scale is also rather odd.

[Thanas]

Man, the last episode was utter and complete suck. They better get this show back on track. They expect me to believe Aquaducts can be fixed in a few days and that the French army had no perimeter security? As well as that their scouts were so obviously stupid?

[Vympel]

Is there some source on the competence of French scouts? Just go with it, that's what I do ...

I loved the Pope's answer to the question whether a woman can sit in the chair of St Peter

They expect me to believe Aquaducts can be fixed in a few days

That depends on what's wrong with it, surely.

[Thanas]

Is there some source on the competence of French scouts? Just go with it, that's what I do ...

I am willing to believe that the sick french king could be duped into thinking clay is bronze/iron. But scouts just sitting down to get drunk without even a cursory search of a village, or the entire powder of the french army being protected by two guys? Sorry, no.

Also, show, if you try to be smart and namedrop the two most powerful Roman noble families, do not make them look like street thugs.

They expect me to believe Aquaducts can be fixed in a few days

That depends on what's wrong with it, surely.

How about being torn into pieces?

[Vympel]

I am willing to believe that the sick french king could be duped into thinking clay is bronze/iron. But scouts just sitting down to get drunk without even a cursory search of a village, or the entire powder of the french army being protected by two guys? Sorry, no.

It was more than two guys - they showed 5 guys getting killed by Cesare's Ezio Auditore team

How about being torn into pieces?

It was in pieces? I completely forget.

[Thanas]

I am willing to believe that the sick french king could be duped into thinking clay is bronze/iron. But scouts just sitting down to get drunk without even a cursory search of a village, or the entire powder of the french army being protected by two guys? Sorry, no.

It was more than two guys - they showed 5 guys getting killed by Cesare's Ezio Auditore team

Doesn't make it any less ridiculous - there should have been a whole regiment at least. The French king had 22k troops at the battle, I find it hard to believe a few dozen was all he could spare to safeguard his most important assets.

It was in pieces? I completely forget.

Iirc there is not a single aquaduct standing from the shots of Rome they showed. [Historically the Goths, Byzantines and Normans all cut the aquaducts during various sieges, but that would be using history which on this show is a bit iffy]. Also, you'd need plenty of lead to repair them and Rome lacks foundries.

[Alyrium Denryle]

It strikes me that the couple dozen guys were part of a much larger unit that tended to do the scouting. If that were the case, given that many possible routes might need to be scouted to make sure you have adequate forage and water along the way, check for ambushes etc then only some of these men would be used to scout any given possible route. Hell, you need them to find routes. Maps at the time typically only showed relative positions of cities and maybe the existence of a river. Scouts would need to "ask directions". So the numbers might be low but...eh... I can buy it.

There was at least 1 standing aqueduct in the late 15th century. The Aqua Virgo, renovated and renamed the Acqua Vergine by Pope Nicholas V in the mid 15th century. The story in the show is that the cardinals had diverted its flow to private residences.

[Thanas]

It strikes me that the couple dozen guys were part of a much larger unit that tended to do the scouting. If that were the case, given that many possible routes might need to be scouted to make sure you have adequate forage and water along the way, check for ambushes etc then only some of these men would be used to scout any given possible route. Hell, you need them to find routes. Maps at the time typically only showed relative positions of cities and maybe the existence of a river. Scouts would need to "ask directions". So the numbers might be low but...eh... I can buy it.

Reread my post again, you missed the meaning of it. Scouts =/= guys protecting the powder train. "ask directions" =/= sitting down at a suspiciously empty village without anybody keeping watch or searching for enemies, nor =/= getting drunk without having made sure nobody is ready to ambush you.

[Alyrium Denryle]

It strikes me that the couple dozen guys were part of a much larger unit that tended to do the scouting. If that were the case, given that many possible routes might need to be scouted to make sure you have adequate forage and water along the way, check for ambushes etc then only some of these men would be used to scout any given possible route. Hell, you need them to find routes. Maps at the time typically only showed relative positions of cities and maybe the existence of a river. Scouts would need to "ask directions". So the numbers might be low but...eh... I can buy it.

Reread my post again, you missed the meaning of it. Scouts =/= guys protecting the powder train. "ask directions" =/= sitting down at a suspiciously empty village without anybody keeping watch or searching for enemies, nor =/= getting drunk without having made sure nobody is ready to ambush you.

Sorry. Just got up (I live at night mostly). My brain is apparently not completely awake yet.

Keep in mind. I am not concrete here, and I know it. This is just my general impression and it seems, if not sound, then at least believable to me. You may have access to more sources for how things like this were done in the period than I do, and I bloody well know it. So, think of what I am saying as laying out a stream of thought, and attaching a large question mark at the end.

On the subject of the scouts... I imagine that a lot of unwalled villages probably take their women and leave when and if they hear that french scouts are approaching. Hell, during the Hundred Years War, there was practically an entire town inside a secret cave network that the local peasants would retreat to when they heard an army or raiding party was approaching. Finding a village abandoned ahead of their approach would not be out of the question I think. Hell, the smaller and more open the village, the easier it is for the population to evacuate. I dont think the village being abandoned would be suspicious at all.

As for sitting down to eat? They are in an army without a modern logistics train, or anything even approaching modern discipline. They have to forage for food and eat when they can. Now, I am not always the best at simulating other people's brains, and you might know more about how chevauchees and such worked than I do. But their behavior does not strike me as immediately unbelievable, considering the lack of resistance they had met thus far, and we do have modern examples from Sherman's March to the Sea of men in raiding/foraging parties behaving similarly. As I recall.

As for the ordinance... Honestly before I can comment in-depth there, I would need to see how the french camp was arranged, and I dont know how prevalent attempts to sabotage ordinance and food stores were during the period.

What I do know is that armies at the time were not setting up roman style marching camps. Certainly they had guards along the perimeter, but a small force can get around them either by stealth or the garrote.

Other than that, I would need to know camp layout, because how many guards you think you might need will depend on where it is. On the outskirts of camp? Tempting target, you need more. In the center? Well you have layers of security then depending on how watches are arranged in the various hosts and retinues of your nobles (mercenary or otherwise), and there is a trade off to make between having men rested for battle and guarding your supplies. In either case, we see five guys killed on screen, there may or may not have been more. 5 or so guys wont stop an attack on your supplies. They do however give a good chance of raising an alarm that would make such an attack suicide. IF you can surprise them though and prevent them from doing so, then I can potentially shrug my shoulders and suspend disbelief.

[Thanas]

On the subject of the scouts... I imagine that a lot of unwalled villages probably take their women and leave when and if they hear that french scouts are approaching. Hell, during the Hundred Years War, there was practically an entire town inside a secret cave network that the local peasants would retreat to when they heard an army or raiding party was approaching. Finding a village abandoned ahead of their approach would not be out of the question I think. Hell, the smaller and more open the village, the easier it is for the population to evacuate. I dont think the village being abandoned would be suspicious at all.

No, but you would make sure that it was abandoned. Search the thing, kick in a few door. Not spend half a minute and then go "hey guys, let's get drunk".

But their behavior does not strike me as immediately unbelievable, considering the lack of resistance they had met thus far, and we do have modern examples from Sherman's March to the Sea of men in raiding/foraging parties behaving similarly. As I recall.

This is the Italian countryside - a plethora of ambushes and irregular warfare. These are supposed to be pretty hardass scouts - not a foraging party. Declaring the village to be empty without even kicking in the doors? Stupid.

As for the ordinance... Honestly before I can comment in-depth there, I would need to see how the french camp was arranged, and I dont know how prevalent attempts to sabotage ordinance and food stores were during the period.

Attacks upon baggage trains and supplies were specialties of the period.

What I do know is that armies at the time were not setting up roman style marching camps.

Not Roman style, but they would not entrust their entire powder supply to a few guys.

Other than that, I would need to know camp layout, because how many guards you think you might need will depend on where it is. On the outskirts of camp? Tempting target, you need more. In the center? Well you have layers of security then depending on how watches are arranged in the various hosts and retinues of your nobles (mercenary or otherwise), and there is a trade off to make between having men rested for battle and guarding your supplies. In either case, we see five guys killed on screen, there may or may not have been more. 5 or so guys wont stop an attack on your supplies. They do however give a good chance of raising an alarm that would make such an attack suicide. IF you can surprise them though and prevent them from doing so, then I can potentially shrug my shoulders and suspend disbelief.

I do not find it believable in any way or form that the French army, after years of guerilla warfare in Naples, Southern Germany and Northern Italy is not able to protect their entire supply of gunpowder (which apparently consists of five small wagons).

[TC Pilot]

I figured that the aqueduct's water supply had just been diverted for some cardinal's purposes, not that they literally rebuilt the thing in a day.

As for the scouts, I looked at them being more like uniformed thugs than some highly skilled fighting force.

The issue with the gunpowder wagons and sentries I thought could be more explained by budget constraints, like how they didn't bother showing the battle. Though I like how Charles was in a carriage one hill away from battlefield with nothing but a thin line of retreating infantry in the way.

[Elfdart]

I also think that Jeremy Irons is the only thing that prevents his role (as it is written) from being an utter joke.

That's why you hire Jeremy Irons.

My problem with the show is playing up the Godfather connections (supposedly, the Borgia family was an influence on Mario Puzo), and trying too hard to copy Coppola's movie. Cesare is such an obvious copy of Michael Corleone that I almost expect the show to have a scene where he shoots a cop in a restaurant. Rodrigo is Vito to a T, Juan is half Sonny/half Fredo and most of the other characters have counterparts in The Godfather, too.

[Thanas]

Jesus Christ, show. Way to butcher the Tiger of Forli.

I might be done with this.