What if Hitler became a painter?

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

What if, due some twist of fate, Hitler was actually accepted in Academy of Arts in Vienna?

(1) Would he be a successful painter? Did he really 'lack of talent', like the Academy said? Or he was simply unappreciated?

(2) Hitler had adopted anti-Semite views since in Vienna, but IIRC his fanatical qualities were enhanced by German's loss in WWI. Would he be that extreme if he became a painter? And how would his racism affect his career as a painter? Would his views reflected on his paintings? (IIRC Picasso's anti-war views also shown on his works like Guernica)

(3) This is an age-old question, but would facism raise to power in Germany without Hitler? And if that's the case, would Hitler be a famous propaganda artist? Probably not a painter? A famous propaganda cartoonist, maybe?

[Joe]

(1) Would he be a successful painter? Did he really 'lack of talent', like the Academy said? Or he was simply unappreciated?

I've seen his art. It is really not hard on the eyes at all and quite honestly I'd rather have a Hitler painting in my room than the baby Jesus getting blown by a demon with monkey shit smeared all over the place or whatever the hell they consider art these days. But he was out of sync with the Zeitgeist, and could never have been a critically successful artist. Commercially he barely made enough as an artist to support himself.

(2) Hitler had adopted anti-Semite views since in Vienna. How would his racism affect his career as a painter? Would his views reflected on his paintings? (IIRC Picasso's anti-war views also shown on his works like Guernica)

More than likely he would have, since he was later a strong advocate of promoting National Socialism through the arts. The Nazis funded the arts to suit their purposes, with nationalistic propaganda and such.

3) This is an age-old question, but would facism raise to power in Germany without Hitler? And if that's the case, would Hitler be a famous propaganda artist? Probably not a painter? A famous propaganda cartoonist, maybe?

Probably. Hitler's rise to power was a function of the rise of Fascism, not the other way around. Hitler just came along at a time when Germany was ready for him. I don't want to get into what he'd have been had he not been a dictator, because that'd be speculation pulled directly from my ass.

[The Grim Squeaker]

Quote:
3) This is an age-old question, but would facism raise to power in Germany without Hitler? And if that's the case, would Hitler be a famous propaganda artist? Probably not a painter? A famous propaganda cartoonist, maybe?


Probably. Hitler's rise to power was a function of the rise of Fascism, not the other way around. Hitler just came along at a time when Germany was ready for him. I don't want to get into what he'd have been had he not been a dictator, because that'd be speculation pulled directly from my ass.
___________

However the question is if it could have drummed up the level of popular support and political savvy necessary without hil

[Joe]

Quote:
3) This is an age-old question, but would facism raise to power in Germany without Hitler? And if that's the case, would Hitler be a famous propaganda artist? Probably not a painter? A famous propaganda cartoonist, maybe?


Probably. Hitler's rise to power was a function of the rise of Fascism, not the other way around. Hitler just came along at a time when Germany was ready for him. I don't want to get into what he'd have been had he not been a dictator, because that'd be speculation pulled directly from my ass.
___________

However the question is if it could have drummed up the level of popular support and political savvy necessary without hil

Yes, it would have. Hitler was an idiot of a human being who failed at nearly everything he did in his life and he was described as such by those who knew him honestly. He brought no political savvy to the Nazi party that it didn't have already. He was just a loud-mouthed idiot who happened to be at the right place at the right time. Hitler didn't ring his magick bell and make Germany Go Insane; it was already quite insane at the time, which was the reason the Nazis came to power in the first place.

[Gil Hamilton]

1) Chances are, if he had stayed an artist he would have been a really unpopular one. He was only marginally technically competant and wouldn't have stood out at all. Chances are, eventually he'd become more hungry than artistically inspired and found some other job.

2) Most likely. There isn't an aspiring artist on the planet who takes up painting because it's just a job and doesn't care what his work says. Pretty much all artists want to express a message in their work. Even completely commercial artists like to get messages across, even if it's the message he's paid to make.

3) Again, probably, for the reason Joe said.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

(1) Would he be a successful painter? Did he really 'lack of talent', like the Academy said? Or he was simply unappreciated?

I've seen his art. It is really not hard on the eyes at all and quite honestly I'd rather have a Hitler painting in my room than the baby Jesus getting blown by a demon with monkey shit smeared all over the place or whatever the hell they consider art these days. But he was out of sync with the Zeitgeist, and could never have been a critically successful artist. Commercially he barely made enough as an artist to support himself.

So his paintings are quite good? And the reason he was rejected is because he wasn't inline with the "mainstream" trends those days?

How good his paintings actually are? Would his works be eventually appreciated some times later? Probably after his death? (IIRC van Gogh's paintings started to be truly appreciated after his death as well)


I found two Hitler's paintings on the net:





From my layman's perspective, they're quite pleasing to the eyes. I ain't no art critic, though. I also wonder whether the popularity of Hitler's paintings today is merely due to their "historical value", or it's because they're actually good?

[Joe]

So his paintings are quite good? And the reason he was rejected is because he wasn't inline with the trends those days?

Yeah. Modern art, which Hitler despised, was the trend at the time. That and batshit Dada stuff.

How good his paintings actually are? Would his works be eventually appreciated some times later? Probably after his death? (IIRC van Gogh's paintings started to be truly appreciated after his death as well)

Well, I haven't seen anyone in modern times proclaiming the greatness of Hitler's art, so obviously that's a no.

From my layman's perspective, they're quite pleasing to the eyes. I have no idea what the critics would say, though. I also wonder whether the popularity of Hitler's paintings today is merely due to their "historical value", or it's because they're actually good?

His art isn't really popular today.

[Gil Hamilton]

The problem with those paintings are that they are kind of technically competant, but they are boring. It's the sort of paintings that college kids sell at art festivals and home furnishing stores. They are perfectly fine little paintings, but you look at them and go "Oh, it's a house" and don't get anything else out of them. People don't buy them because they are great works of art, but because they've got a big blank wall with nothing there.

You can make a career out of paint that sort of thing, but not a very good one. Eventually you've got to offer something new or something interesting.

[Patrick Degan]

Technically competent work but uninspired —very uncreative composition. Sufficent to make a career as an architectural illustrator, perhaps.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

His art isn't really popular today.

I meant among certain collectors. Not really that "popular", though. Anyway, probably the reason why collectors are hunting them is because of the person who painted them instead of their art values.

The problem with those paintings are that they are kind of technically competant, but they are boring. It's the sort of paintings that college kids sell at art festivals and home furnishing stores.

Technically competent work but uninspired —very uncreative composition. Sufficent to make a career as an architectural illustrator, perhaps.

Yes, they're pretty, but empty. I wonder whether Vienna Academy of Art would help Hitler develop his own "personality" (style?), or he's just an helpless, untalented painter-wannabe anyway.

[General Brock]

What if, due some twist of fate, Hitler was actually accepted in Academy of Arts in Vienna?

(1) Would he be a successful painter? Did he really 'lack of talent', like the Academy said? Or he was simply unappreciated?

(2) Hitler had adopted anti-Semite views since in Vienna, but IIRC his fanatical qualities were enhanced by German's loss in WWI. Would he be that extreme if he became a painter? And how would his racism affect his career as a painter? Would his views reflected on his paintings? (IIRC Picasso's anti-war views also shown on his works like Guernica)

(3) This is an age-old question, but would facism raise to power in Germany without Hitler? And if that's the case, would Hitler be a famous propaganda artist? Probably not a painter? A famous propaganda cartoonist, maybe?

1. Hitler had technical talent; Vienna should have accepted him, but he didn't have the connections or background, or the personality to work around that.

2. Hitler possibly blamed the Jews in the academy for keeping him out; that might be an interesting idea to explore. His racism and antisemitism at that point in his life was probably no worse than most men of his class in Germany at the time. In fact, had he been accepted, and been able to make friends in a more diverse cultural circle, he might not have become the unfortunate person he ended up becoming. On the other hand, that didn't help Wagner any.

3. Facism only needed a convenient face for the masses; Hitler was it. Here we have a populist leader, a decorated WW I hero, a struggling artist, in step with facist thought, who pulled himself to the top by his own bootstraps. Hitler probably came off as useful but not necessarily bright enough to go beyond the movement's more 'intellectual' leaders in the back rooms. Or so they thought.

[Lord Zentei]

2. Hitler possibly blamed the Jews in the academy for keeping him out; that might be an interesting idea to explore. His racism and antisemitism at that point in his life was probably no worse than most men of his class in Germany at the time. In fact, had he been accepted, and been able to make friends in a more diverse cultural circle, he might not have become the unfortunate person he ended up becoming. On the other hand, that didn't help Wagner any.

Of course, in dedicating himself to the arts instead of politics, Wagner didn't end up killing millions of people. So even if he had become a racist artist, Hitler would have been way less bad than he actually did become.

[Gordonfrost]

Just a thoght, but, wouldn't Hitler have been conscripted into the army anyway even if he did become a reasonably successful artist? It's quite possible that everything would have gone pretty much the way it did anyway.

[xcr]

If he were, it would likley have been as a war painter, not a runner, and as such he would have had different experiences

[Hitch Hiker]

Also he wouldnt be in charge of the country, and therefore wouldnt have been able to kill the jews and most of WW2 would ahve been different, probably would not have happened atall. as he wasnt in politics the formar chancellor couldnt ahve put him in charge thinking he could control Hitler etc etc

[salm]

Honestly, that stuff is pure kitsch.

[Frank Hipper]

Honestly, that stuff is pure kitsch.

Look at what happened to art in Germany after the Nazis came to power, blecchhh.

Nudes, landscapes, propaganda. Ick.

[Perinquus]

Quote:
3) This is an age-old question, but would facism raise to power in Germany without Hitler? And if that's the case, would Hitler be a famous propaganda artist? Probably not a painter? A famous propaganda cartoonist, maybe?


Probably. Hitler's rise to power was a function of the rise of Fascism, not the other way around. Hitler just came along at a time when Germany was ready for him. I don't want to get into what he'd have been had he not been a dictator, because that'd be speculation pulled directly from my ass.
___________

However the question is if it could have drummed up the level of popular support and political savvy necessary without hil

Yes, it would have. Hitler was an idiot of a human being who failed at nearly everything he did in his life and he was described as such by those who knew him honestly. He brought no political savvy to the Nazi party that it didn't have already. He was just a loud-mouthed idiot who happened to be at the right place at the right time. Hitler didn't ring his magick bell and make Germany Go Insane; it was already quite insane at the time, which was the reason the Nazis came to power in the first place.

Hitler's paintings, you will note, completely lack any human presence. Not a single person is ever pictured in any of them. He seems to have had real difficulty in painting the human figure, and without the ability to do that, he never could have been accepted by the Vienna academy, regardless of what the prevailing trends in art were at the time.

Also, to dismiss Hitler as an idiot is entirely too simplistic. Harry S. Truman was a failure at his career before he entered politics. Ulysses S. Grant failed at everything he ever tried outside his military career. Does this make them idiots? Hitler was certainly no genius, and he was without doubt a twisted monster and a fanatical racist. But he was a very clever politician. You simply cannot rise to command a powerful, industrialized nation entirely on fool's luck. An idiot cannot just stumble and blunder his way into such a position. For several years, Hitler outmaneuvered and destroyed every opponent (including those like Franz von Pappen, who thought they were using him), and ultimately secured a grip on power so strong that it took the near destruction of his country to pry it loose. He was an ideologue who let his fanaticism cloud his judgement, and lead him to make mistakes that a saner man would never have made. At the end, he seems to have lost his grip on sanity entirely, and simply indulged in wishful thinking in response to later German military reverses (imagining phantom divisions, that existed nowhere but in his mind, for example, when speaking to his generals about how to stop the advancing Red Army).

Without Hitler, it's entirely possible that the Nazis would have risen to power anyway. The times in Germany were absolutely ripe for a strong man, who promised to end the terrible economic woes plaguing the country, and the people were ready to follow such a man, even as he took away every last shred of their political freedom. But Hitler did become a driving force in the Nazi party. And he was a charismatic figure who excelled at winning popular support. Without Hitler, it's also entirely possible that the communists (who were another growing political movement in post WWI Germany) would have prevailed instead of the Nazis.

[salm]

Honestly, that stuff is pure kitsch.

Look at what happened to art in Germany after the Nazis came to power, blecchhh.

Nudes, landscapes, propaganda. Ick.

Bah, Nord-Süd Achse Welthauptstadt Germania (aka Berlin) by Albert Speer. ´nuff said.

*Fap, fap, fap, fap*

[Frank Hipper]

Oh, it was pretty fap-tacular, from a distance.

Sadly, however, it was sterile in detail, derivative in form, and totally un-imaginatvie aside from size.

[Glocksman]

Technically competent work but uninspired —very uncreative composition. Sufficent to make a career as an architectural illustrator, perhaps.

Hitler also thought of himself as an architect.
In fact that is what drew him close to Speer, who could make his ideas a reality.

If Hitler had become an architect or painter, Germany very probably would have become a dictatorship but I wonder if the racial element of it would have been so strong. Sure, lots of people beside Hitler blamed the Jews, but how many of them would have taken their antisemtitsm to the murderous extreme that Adolf did?

[Frank Hipper]

Germany could have gone in an entirely different direction, as well.
I've read some speculation on the possibility of Hugo Eckener of Zeppelin Company fame being able to have defeated Hitler in 1932, he was extremely popular and respected...too bad he couldn't be bothered to get involved in politics.

[Peregrin Toker]

(1) Would he be a successful painter? Did he really 'lack of talent', like the Academy said? Or he was simply unappreciated?

I've seen his art. It is really not hard on the eyes at all and quite honestly I'd rather have a Hitler painting in my room than the baby Jesus getting blown by a demon with monkey shit smeared all over the place or whatever the hell they consider art these days.

Are you referring to H.R. Giger's "Satan" which depicts the Devil using the crucified Jesus as a slingshot? (That was the first thing I thought of when I read your description of modern art)

(2) Hitler had adopted anti-Semite views since in Vienna. How would his racism affect his career as a painter? Would his views reflected on his paintings? (IIRC Picasso's anti-war views also shown on his works like Guernica)

Well, Salvador Dalí was a vocal supporter of Franco and while it did cause the other Surrealists to excommunicate him, it didn't affect his popularity in the mainstream, if that's anything to judge by.

[Patrick Degan]

If Hitler had become an architect or painter, Germany very probably would have become a dictatorship but I wonder if the racial element of it would have been so strong. Sure, lots of people beside Hitler blamed the Jews, but how many of them would have taken their antisemtitsm to the murderous extreme that Adolf did?

Probably a military dictatorship, perhaps fascist in character, but I don't think the racial theories of Nazism would have formed its ideological core. Might have been more like Spain under Franco.

[IRG CommandoJoe]

Oh, it was pretty fap-tacular, from a distance.

Sadly, however, it was sterile in detail, derivative in form, and totally un-imaginatvie aside from size.

Have you ever seen this?