[Discussion] Senatorial Status of Moderators

Moderator: CmdrWilkens

User avatar
fgalkin
Carvin' Marvin
Posts: 14557
Joined: 2002-07-03 11:51pm
Location: Land of the Mountain Fascists
Contact:

Re: [Discussion] Senatorial Status of Moderators

Post by fgalkin »

Dalton wrote:
fgalkin wrote:
Dalton wrote:Keep in mind that it is possible to give Moderators posting rights here but prevent them from voting.
Just to be clear- this rule will apply to all Forum Moderators, even those who were Senators, right? So, Thanas, Stas, Simplicius, Surlethe, Beowulf and Keevan would also lose their right to vote in the Senate.
No, not if they are in the Senate group - "yes" permissions override "no" permissions, unless they're set to "never". Which raises another question: if a Senator is elevated to modhood, should they lose their Senate vote?
That would be the issue here, yes. Otherwise, it would be penalizing only a few individuals, the most prominent of which being...yup, guessed it! :D

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin
User avatar
Steve
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 9762
Joined: 2002-07-03 01:09pm
Location: Florida USA
Contact:

Re: [Discussion] Senatorial Status of Moderators

Post by Steve »

Stuart, I'm not saying we should deny Shep a voice in the Senate, but I do believe we need to strongly consider the fact of being a moderator (but not a mini-mod) basically making one a full member of the Senate? And if not, then mods should not be allowed to vote in Senate decisions even if they can argue the point. A separation of branches, so to speak - the Senate debates and votes on policy, the moderators enforce the policy but do not decide on what it should be, and Mike makes the final decision on any policy or if someone is fit to be a Mod.

If we go with the Moderator = Senator decision then that's fine, but at least let's make sure we have a firm position on the issue so there is no future confusion. Also, if we decide to do this, are all Mods created equal for this purpose? Does Shep as History Mod deserve Senatorship while, say, the Fanfic Forum mods don't?
”A Radical is a man with both feet planted firmly in the air.” – Franklin Delano Roosevelt

"No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism." - Sir Winston L. S. Churchill, Princips Britannia

American Conservatism is about the exercise of personal responsibility without state interference in the lives of the citizenry..... unless, of course, it involves using the bludgeon of state power to suppress things Conservatives do not like.

DONALD J. TRUMP IS A SEDITIOUS TRAITOR AND MUST BE IMPEACHED
User avatar
Coyote
Rabid Monkey
Posts: 12464
Joined: 2002-08-23 01:20am
Location: The glorious Sun-Barge! Isis, Isis, Ra,Ra,Ra!
Contact:

Re: [Discussion] Senatorial Status of Moderators

Post by Coyote »

If we can come to a decision on this, and clear it up, it will go a long way towards clearing up questions about the size (and even roles) of the Senate. Once that logjam is cleared, we can expand the Senate or leave it the same.

One thing to bear in mind, though-- when the Senate was created, it was created by DW and the Admins with a lot of mods and minimods automatically included as Senators... which seems to indicate that (at least at the time of founding) Mods and Senators were of equal status and footing. Mike recently reinforced the status quo of the Senate, also.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
User avatar
Dalton
For Those About to Rock We Salute You
For Those About to Rock We Salute You
Posts: 22631
Joined: 2002-07-03 06:16pm
Location: New York, the Fuck You State
Contact:

Re: [Discussion] Senatorial Status of Moderators

Post by Dalton »

Coyote wrote:
Stuart wrote:I don't know what we would call such a section "The Hounds of Hell" perhaps? Does the SW Imperial Fleet have an intelligence section?
The Empire had a "Ubiqtorate", but I think that name is taken.
It's already been done, but in this case that group had a different function. We could revisit this later.
Coyote wrote:One thing to bear in mind, though-- when the Senate was created, it was created by DW and the Admins with a lot of mods and minimods automatically included as Senators... which seems to indicate that (at least at the time of founding) Mods and Senators were of equal status and footing. Mike recently reinforced the status quo of the Senate, also.
This is an excellent point, except that it's not quite accurate, according to my recollection. We had a short list of Senate "starting members", which included many non-moderators, and Moderators and Supermods were granted forum access as well.
Steve wrote:If we go with the Moderator = Senator decision then that's fine, but at least let's make sure we have a firm position on the issue so there is no future confusion. Also, if we decide to do this, are all Mods created equal for this purpose? Does Shep as History Mod deserve Senatorship while, say, the Fanfic Forum mods don't?
No, I don't think that would be very fair. It should be all or none, as far as I'm concerned, since anyone who becomes a moderator has mod privileges over certain other groups.
Image
Image
To Absent Friends
Dalton | Admin Smash | Knight of the Order of SDN

"y = mx + bro" - Surlethe
"You try THAT shit again, kid, and I will mod you. I will
mod you so hard, you'll wish I were Dalton." - Lagmonster

May the way of the Hero lead to the Triforce.
User avatar
fgalkin
Carvin' Marvin
Posts: 14557
Joined: 2002-07-03 11:51pm
Location: Land of the Mountain Fascists
Contact:

Re: [Discussion] Senatorial Status of Moderators

Post by fgalkin »

Steve wrote:Stuart, I'm not saying we should deny Shep a voice in the Senate, but I do believe we need to strongly consider the fact of being a moderator (but not a mini-mod) basically making one a full member of the Senate? And if not, then mods should not be allowed to vote in Senate decisions even if they can argue the point. A separation of branches, so to speak - the Senate debates and votes on policy, the moderators enforce the policy but do not decide on what it should be, and Mike makes the final decision on any policy or if someone is fit to be a Mod.
Because SDN must be like a real government. I mean, I have an idea, how about we make a House of Commons to separate the houses?.

And mods have been historically free to set policy in their own forums- that was never under dispute, just look at the "forum rules" sticky/announcement in every forum. The Senate only concerned itself with board policy as a whole, not individual forums.

If we go with the Moderator = Senator decision then that's fine, but at least let's make sure we have a firm position on the issue so there is no future confusion. Also, if we decide to do this, are all Mods created equal for this purpose? Does Shep as History Mod deserve Senatorship while, say, the Fanfic Forum mods don't?
I firmly believe that all mods are created equal.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin
User avatar
Steve
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 9762
Joined: 2002-07-03 01:09pm
Location: Florida USA
Contact:

Re: [Discussion] Senatorial Status of Moderators

Post by Steve »

Well, as I said, I'm not explicitly against Mods being automatically Senators, I just want the issue clarified.
User avatar
CmdrWilkens
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 9093
Joined: 2002-07-06 01:24am
Location: Land of the Crabcake
Contact:

Re: [Discussion] Senatorial Status of Moderators

Post by CmdrWilkens »

I think Dalton's solution might work best in this sense:

All full Mods (regardless of standing) should have permission to post and discuss
Only Senators can vote
A person can be both a full Mod AND a Senator (or they could be either one separately)


I'm not sure how that would work with regards to SuperMods. Rob as a double check would permission over rides apply to SuperMods as well (that is they would need to be part of the Senate usergroup to post)?

I say this because it would be a relatively simple fix, would let the Senate be in total control of its voting membership (e.g. should we get really uppity we could kick a Mod of the voting list but they could still post), and would mean that the publicly visible "Senators" usergroup would include all voting members for the board to see.
Image
SDNet World Nation: Wilkonia
Armourer of the WARWOLVES
ASVS Vet's Association (Class of 2000)
Former C.S. Strowbridge Gold Ego Award Winner
MEMBER of the Anti-PETA Anti-Facist LEAGUE

"I put no stock in religion. By the word religion I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of god. I have seen too much religion in the eyes of too many murderers. Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness. "
-Kingdom of Heaven
User avatar
Alyeska
Federation Ambassador
Posts: 17496
Joined: 2002-08-11 07:28pm
Location: Montana, USA

Re: [Discussion] Senatorial Status of Moderators

Post by Alyeska »

Wasn't this part of charter that the committee was going to work on?
"If the facts are on your side, pound on the facts. If the law is on your side, pound on the law. If neither is on your side, pound on the table."

"The captain claimed our people violated a 4,000 year old treaty forbidding us to develop hyperspace technology. Extermination of our planet was the consequence. The subject did not survive interrogation."
User avatar
LadyTevar
White Mage
White Mage
Posts: 23148
Joined: 2003-02-12 10:59pm

Re: [Discussion] Senatorial Status of Moderators

Post by LadyTevar »

I think it was, Alyeska.. but we got distracted.
Image
Nitram, slightly high on cough syrup: Do you know you're beautiful?
Me: Nope, that's why I have you around to tell me.
Nitram: You -are- beautiful. Anyone tries to tell you otherwise kill them.

"A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP" -- Leonard Nimoy, last Tweet
User avatar
CmdrWilkens
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 9093
Joined: 2002-07-06 01:24am
Location: Land of the Crabcake
Contact:

Re: [Discussion] Senatorial Status of Moderators

Post by CmdrWilkens »

The committee got tabled.
Image
SDNet World Nation: Wilkonia
Armourer of the WARWOLVES
ASVS Vet's Association (Class of 2000)
Former C.S. Strowbridge Gold Ego Award Winner
MEMBER of the Anti-PETA Anti-Facist LEAGUE

"I put no stock in religion. By the word religion I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of god. I have seen too much religion in the eyes of too many murderers. Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness. "
-Kingdom of Heaven
User avatar
Dalton
For Those About to Rock We Salute You
For Those About to Rock We Salute You
Posts: 22631
Joined: 2002-07-03 06:16pm
Location: New York, the Fuck You State
Contact:

Re: [Discussion] Senatorial Status of Moderators

Post by Dalton »

CmdrWilkens wrote:I think Dalton's solution might work best in this sense:

All full Mods (regardless of standing) should have permission to post and discuss
Only Senators can vote
A person can be both a full Mod AND a Senator (or they could be either one separately)

I'm not sure how that would work with regards to SuperMods. Rob as a double check would permission over rides apply to SuperMods as well (that is they would need to be part of the Senate usergroup to post)?

I say this because it would be a relatively simple fix, would let the Senate be in total control of its voting membership (e.g. should we get really uppity we could kick a Mod of the voting list but they could still post), and would mean that the publicly visible "Senators" usergroup would include all voting members for the board to see.
The only thing I have issue with is having Moderators who are also Senators, as I think that once somebody is elevated to Modhood, they should be removed as a full Senator and only allowed to post and discuss.

Regarding SuperMod permissions, I can adjust those so that they don't have the ability to vote, but just in this forum. This is, of course, subject to Mike's approval.
Image
Image
To Absent Friends
Dalton | Admin Smash | Knight of the Order of SDN

"y = mx + bro" - Surlethe
"You try THAT shit again, kid, and I will mod you. I will
mod you so hard, you'll wish I were Dalton." - Lagmonster

May the way of the Hero lead to the Triforce.
User avatar
Surlethe
HATES GRADING
Posts: 12267
Joined: 2004-12-29 03:41pm

Re: [Discussion] Senatorial Status of Moderators

Post by Surlethe »

I agree with removal of moderators from Senatehood upon elevation. As Simplicius said (and I agreed) in the mod forum, there's an inherent conflict of interest present: there's no reason for a moderator to be able to vote on recommendations for his or her behavior. We are the people being advised; we are therefore not the advisers.
A Government founded upon justice, and recognizing the equal rights of all men; claiming higher authority for existence, or sanction for its laws, that nature, reason, and the regularly ascertained will of the people; steadily refusing to put its sword and purse in the service of any religious creed or family is a standing offense to most of the Governments of the world, and to some narrow and bigoted people among ourselves.
F. Douglass
User avatar
CmdrWilkens
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 9093
Joined: 2002-07-06 01:24am
Location: Land of the Crabcake
Contact:

Re: [Discussion] Senatorial Status of Moderators

Post by CmdrWilkens »

Dalton wrote:The only thing I have issue with is having Moderators who are also Senators, as I think that once somebody is elevated to Modhood, they should be removed as a full Senator and only allowed to post and discuss.

Regarding SuperMod permissions, I can adjust those so that they don't have the ability to vote, but just in this forum. This is, of course, subject to Mike's approval.
I think that might work AND cure the "too many Senators" syndrome because if I'm tallying things correctly we would only have 29 "active" Senators who can actually vote. We would still have roughly 60 posting members but only 30 (if all inactives were to return) could vote at any given time.
Image
SDNet World Nation: Wilkonia
Armourer of the WARWOLVES
ASVS Vet's Association (Class of 2000)
Former C.S. Strowbridge Gold Ego Award Winner
MEMBER of the Anti-PETA Anti-Facist LEAGUE

"I put no stock in religion. By the word religion I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of god. I have seen too much religion in the eyes of too many murderers. Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness. "
-Kingdom of Heaven
User avatar
Coyote
Rabid Monkey
Posts: 12464
Joined: 2002-08-23 01:20am
Location: The glorious Sun-Barge! Isis, Isis, Ra,Ra,Ra!
Contact:

Re: [Discussion] Senatorial Status of Moderators

Post by Coyote »

CmdrWilkens wrote:I think that might work AND cure the "too many Senators" syndrome because if I'm tallying things correctly we would only have 29 "active" Senators who can actually vote. We would still have roughly 60 posting members but only 30 (if all inactives were to return) could vote at any given time.
Then we can open the possibility of elevating more folks to the Senate. At this point, is there any reason to discuss a maximum limit for number of Senators, or shall we just burn that bridge when we come to it? :wink:
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
User avatar
Alyeska
Federation Ambassador
Posts: 17496
Joined: 2002-08-11 07:28pm
Location: Montana, USA

Re: [Discussion] Senatorial Status of Moderators

Post by Alyeska »

Just to post another piece on the Moderator/Senators. Perhaps a transitory period? They lose their vote in the senate after a set period of time. This would address some recently modded members and further account for future promotions.
"If the facts are on your side, pound on the facts. If the law is on your side, pound on the law. If neither is on your side, pound on the table."

"The captain claimed our people violated a 4,000 year old treaty forbidding us to develop hyperspace technology. Extermination of our planet was the consequence. The subject did not survive interrogation."
User avatar
Stark
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 36169
Joined: 2002-07-03 09:56pm
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Re: [Discussion] Senatorial Status of Moderators

Post by Stark »

Should this be discretionary, based on what the vote in question is in regard to? If someone is the moderator of a single forum, there is no reason for them to be excluded from votes regarding other board issues, whereas broader powers might require voting to be restricted from more issues.

I have no idea how that would be implemented in a non-busywork manner, however.
User avatar
phongn
Rebel Leader
Posts: 18487
Joined: 2002-07-03 11:11pm

Re: [Discussion] Senatorial Status of Moderators

Post by phongn »

Stark wrote:Should this be discretionary, based on what the vote in question is in regard to? If someone is the moderator of a single forum, there is no reason for them to be excluded from votes regarding other board issues, whereas broader powers might require voting to be restricted from more issues.
An admin could probably create a group with voting rights and then set the Senate's permissions as such, but it'd have to be done for every vote (and good luck if there are overlapping ones).
User avatar
CmdrWilkens
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 9093
Joined: 2002-07-06 01:24am
Location: Land of the Crabcake
Contact:

Re: [Discussion] Senatorial Status of Moderators

Post by CmdrWilkens »

Yeah I'm gonna nix that idea. It be easier just to stick with Senators can vote, Moderators can post and leave it at that.
Image
SDNet World Nation: Wilkonia
Armourer of the WARWOLVES
ASVS Vet's Association (Class of 2000)
Former C.S. Strowbridge Gold Ego Award Winner
MEMBER of the Anti-PETA Anti-Facist LEAGUE

"I put no stock in religion. By the word religion I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of god. I have seen too much religion in the eyes of too many murderers. Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness. "
-Kingdom of Heaven
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Re: [Discussion] Senatorial Status of Moderators

Post by Darth Wong »

Steve wrote:I think everyone overlooked it.
If I had a major problem with the idea of Shep attaining full moderatorhood upon the elevation of the History forum, I would have said something myself. Frankly, we have never had this kind of discussion before for any other mod, and it seems to me like some people are just exercising a grudge against Shep for his checkered past. We can all agree that Shep has made mistakes in his past, but if that's the reason for the extra scrutiny being placed upon him now, I would expect people to be honest enough to admit it, instead of pretending that they're shocked to see a moderator posting in the Senate.

People were not shocked to see a new moderator post here. They were shocked to see Shep posting here, because they have a low opinion of him, because of his past. Well I'll go on record saying that yes, I am a liberal, and I do believe that people deserve second chances.
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
User avatar
The Yosemite Bear
Mostly Harmless Nutcase (Requiescat in Pace)
Posts: 35211
Joined: 2002-07-21 02:38am
Location: Dave's Not Here Man

Re: [Discussion] Senatorial Status of Moderators

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

I was just suprised, as I thought after my demotion, and all the other drama in the past, he would be the last person I expected to be given mod/senator status, especially given Wilson, Dalton and others....
Image

The scariest folk song lyrics are "My Boy Grew up to be just like me" from cats in the cradle by Harry Chapin
User avatar
Dalton
For Those About to Rock We Salute You
For Those About to Rock We Salute You
Posts: 22631
Joined: 2002-07-03 06:16pm
Location: New York, the Fuck You State
Contact:

Re: [Discussion] Senatorial Status of Moderators

Post by Dalton »

Darth Wong wrote:Frankly, we have never had this kind of discussion before for any other mod,
Except for Mayabird, not long before Shep was elevated. Like, literally a day or so. Shep's elevation just brought it into the limelight since many were surprised to see him here.
The Yosemite Bear wrote:I was just suprised, as I thought after my demotion, and all the other drama in the past, he would be the last person I expected to be given mod/senator status, especially given Wilson, Dalton and others....
None of us had any say in the matter, literally. It was Mike's decision, and I will abide by it.
Image
Image
To Absent Friends
Dalton | Admin Smash | Knight of the Order of SDN

"y = mx + bro" - Surlethe
"You try THAT shit again, kid, and I will mod you. I will
mod you so hard, you'll wish I were Dalton." - Lagmonster

May the way of the Hero lead to the Triforce.
User avatar
fgalkin
Carvin' Marvin
Posts: 14557
Joined: 2002-07-03 11:51pm
Location: Land of the Mountain Fascists
Contact:

Re: [Discussion] Senatorial Status of Moderators

Post by fgalkin »

Just to point something out- if you take away the Mods' right to vote, it will apply to things like new member elevations. If the staff's opinion on new members is not counted, then they are less likely to choose new mods from the Senate pool, and more likely to bypass it and choose them directly.

Meaning that you might see this problem a lot more in the future, since you're creating a rift between the Senate and the Staff where there was none before.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin
Locked