[Discussion] Archiving SWvST, PSW, PST

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Re: [Discussion] Archiving SWvST, PSW, PST

Post by RedImperator » 2009-10-15 12:30am

Stark wrote:How does making them subforums change anything? They're still full forums with little activity, they're just nested under another forum.

I maintain that if the 3 ST and SW forums were merged into 'Star Trek and Star Wars', activity would be fine and low enough to eventually merge it into 'Science Fiction' if ti seemed necessary. Shuffling forums around is an inferior solution.
If anything, making them subforums might slow them down even more. I can tell you that, as a "main page" browser, I always wind up paying subforums less attention than top-level forums, even ones in which I'm interested, like History.

Not that I see the point of preserving PST or PSW as independent forums at all. So what if there's a new live-action Star Wars on the way? OSF will have a surge of Star Wars activity, and then it'll cool off in favor of something else, just like it does now with Stargate, 40k, and like it did every time there was a major nBSG plot twist. Unless there's a reasonable chance that putting Star Wars in a combined SF forum would push active topics off the first page (I won't even bother suggesting Trek could do it), I see no reason not to combine the forums entirely.
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Re: [Discussion] Archiving SWvST, PSW, PST

Post by Edi » 2009-10-15 03:44am

Stark wrote:How does making them subforums change anything? They're still full forums with little activity, they're just nested under another forum.

I maintain that if the 3 ST and SW forums were merged into 'Star Trek and Star Wars', activity would be fine and low enough to eventually merge it into 'Science Fiction' if ti seemed necessary. Shuffling forums around is an inferior solution.
There is the matter of how much of the original board we might wish to retain as structurally intact for the sake of tradition while still cleaning up the front page. In that case the forum shuffle is a superior solution. Especially if we just archive them and any future threads will be in the main SF forum.

On the other hand, there is the factor of the main page readers that Red pointed out.
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Re: [Discussion] Archiving SWvST, PSW, PST

Post by Stark » 2009-10-15 04:15am

RedImperator wrote:If anything, making them subforums might slow them down even more. I can tell you that, as a "main page" browser, I always wind up paying subforums less attention than top-level forums, even ones in which I'm interested, like History.

Not that I see the point of preserving PST or PSW as independent forums at all. So what if there's a new live-action Star Wars on the way? OSF will have a surge of Star Wars activity, and then it'll cool off in favor of something else, just like it does now with Stargate, 40k, and like it did every time there was a major nBSG plot twist. Unless there's a reasonable chance that putting Star Wars in a combined SF forum would push active topics off the first page (I won't even bother suggesting Trek could do it), I see no reason not to combine the forums entirely.
What I was suggesting was the creation of a single forum called 'Star Wars and Star Trek' to contain all of STvsSW, PSW and PST. I personally think that forum would eventually be merged with OSF into a single forum for 'Science Fiction', but I think the traditionalists would resist this.

There are 2 threads active in the last week in STvsSW, 12 in PSW and 11 in PST. That's 25 total; that's half a frontpage for a single forum.

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Re: [Discussion] Archiving SWvST, PSW, PST

Post by Bounty » 2009-10-15 11:44am

If everything is thrown in together, it'll need some very solid rules and a dedicated moderating staff, because otherwise it'll only end in tears.

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Re: [Discussion] Archiving SWvST, PSW, PST

Post by Hotfoot » 2009-10-15 12:53pm

Bounty wrote:If everything is thrown in together, it'll need some very solid rules and a dedicated moderating staff, because otherwise it'll only end in tears.
Why so? As I've mentioned before, Star Wars and Star Trek related topics have been in OSF for years now as part of other vs. debates. It's not like all four forums are so insanely busy that they'll now overcome News and Politics on general activity. We'd still easily have threads from September on the first page today in the middle of October if we merged them right now.
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Re: [Discussion] Archiving SWvST, PSW, PST

Post by RedImperator » 2009-10-15 02:13pm

I think Bounty's referring to the "trigger guards effect", where Trek threads are derailed by tryhards hurf-hurfing about how Trek sucks, the Federation is stupid, phasers don't have trigger guards, et cetera. He's probably thinking that putting Trek threads in a forum frequented by non-Trek fans will only make it worse. I agree that's a potential problem, but with good moderating, I think it could also generate an interest in Trek among non-Trekkies (Sonnenberg's reviews of good Trek episodes, for example, might get people interested in good Trek).
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Re: [Discussion] Archiving SWvST, PSW, PST

Post by Bounty » 2009-10-15 02:15pm

Not just that, STvSW has been a magnet for me-too'ers. The quality of discussion in both forums is a shitload below that in OSF most of the time.

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Re: [Discussion] Archiving SWvST, PSW, PST

Post by Alyeska » 2009-10-15 02:32pm

Much as I have a soft spot for PST, I cannot disagree that it has very little traffic. If we do anything, it should affect all three forums. It feels wrong to just change two of them. That said, I would like to retain the history we do have. Whatever is done, having an archived set of individual subforums for those three feels right. They represent what once was.
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Re: [Discussion] Archiving SWvST, PSW, PST

Post by RedImperator » 2009-10-15 04:16pm

I'm not opposed to archived forums or subforums in the slightest. I guess you can call that my concession to tradition.
Stark wrote:What I was suggesting was the creation of a single forum called 'Star Wars and Star Trek' to contain all of STvsSW, PSW and PST. I personally think that forum would eventually be merged with OSF into a single forum for 'Science Fiction', but I think the traditionalists would resist this.
You're probably right, but I'd still like to shoot for rolling them all into OSF now, and compromise down to "SW&ST + OSF" if necessary.
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Re: [Discussion] Archiving SWvST, PSW, PST

Post by Surlethe » 2009-10-16 06:19am

I know we can make subforums, but can we merge forums without having mods go through and manually move threads from the old forums to the new forum? In SLAM, I can only select about 0.5% of all the threads at a time; moving all of them would be a huge pain in the ass.

As far as the proposals, I'd be just fine with History as a subforum of SLAM (it won't affect me either way, since mods don't have power in subforums) - history is in some sense a peer-reviewed science anyway, so it's a good fit. And I think the three proposals floated above regarding the SW and ST forums are just magnificent, but I gravitate toward simply closing all three and turning OSF into "Science Fiction." Any relevant technical or discussion threads that are very helpful could simply be archived by moving them to the appropriate archive.
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Re: [Discussion] Archiving SWvST, PSW, PST

Post by Darth Wong » 2009-10-22 09:22am

Is this at the point where somebody can put together a proposal for a vote yet?
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Re: [Discussion] Archiving SWvST, PSW, PST

Post by Stuart » 2009-10-22 09:40am

Darth Wong wrote:Is this at the point where somebody can put together a proposal for a vote yet?
How about this.

"I propose that the 'Pure Star Wars', 'Pure Star Trek' and 'Star Wars vs Star Trek' forums be merged into a single forum entitled 'Star Wars and Star Trek' with immediate effect."
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Re: [Discussion] Archiving SWvST, PSW, PST

Post by Kuja » 2009-10-22 09:50am

Stuart wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Is this at the point where somebody can put together a proposal for a vote yet?
How about this.

"I propose that the 'Pure Star Wars', 'Pure Star Trek' and 'Star Wars vs Star Trek' forums be merged into a single forum entitled 'Star Wars and Star Trek' with immediate effect."
I favor this option, but some seem to be of a mind to merge everything into OSF and retitle it Science Fiction. I move we vote on it.
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Re: [Discussion] Archiving SWvST, PSW, PST

Post by Lagmonster » 2009-10-22 09:59am

A sub-theme of this thread has also been the fate of the History forum; I suggest that, taking into consideration most opinions, that you put it to a vote to either keep it as is, make History a sub-forum of SLAM, or make History its own main forum.


It also seems clear that you should vote on either keeping the status quo, amalgamating Star Wars, Star Trek, and SWvsST into one forum "Star Wars and Star Trek", or else merging them all with OSF as "Science Fiction".
Note: I'm semi-retired from the board, so if you need something, please be patient.

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Re: [Discussion] Archiving SWvST, PSW, PST

Post by GrandMasterTerwynn » 2009-10-22 12:26pm

Lagmonster wrote:A sub-theme of this thread has also been the fate of the History forum; I suggest that, taking into consideration most opinions, that you put it to a vote to either keep it as is, make History a sub-forum of SLAM, or make History its own main forum.


It also seems clear that you should vote on either keeping the status quo, amalgamating Star Wars, Star Trek, and SWvsST into one forum "Star Wars and Star Trek", or else merging them all with OSF as "Science Fiction".
So there are clearly two disparate proposals here. Three, if you count the discussion about what to do with Star Wars vs Star Trek.
Proposal One: What to do with History?
A) Leave History where it is.
B) Make History a sub-forum of SLAM.
C) Promote History to a full forum under Non-Fiction


Proposal Two: What to do with PST and PSW?
A) Leave everything as-is. If this is the option chosen, it will invalidate Proposal Three.
B) Merge them all into OSF and rename OSF to 'Science Fiction'
C) Rename OSF to 'Science Fiction' and make PST and PSW into sub-forums.
D) Rename OSF to 'Science Fiction' and merge PST and PSW into a new main forum called "Star Wars and Star Trek"


Proposal Three: What to do with SWvsST?
A) Merge or move as per Proposal Two, but leave open.
B) Make it a sub-forum. What it will be a sub-forum of is contingent on the outcome of the P2 vote. This sub-forum will remain open.
C) Make it a sub-forum. What it will be a sub-forum of is contingent on the outcome of the P2 vote. This sub-forum will be closed and serve as an archive/museum exhibit of that period of the board's history.

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Re: [Discussion] Archiving SWvST, PSW, PST

Post by Sea Skimmer » 2009-10-22 02:38pm

I think it makes sense to roll all vs. debates into the Sci fi Forum until such a time as a large infusion of new evidence may occur, but pure Star Trek and Star Wars forums are still useful and I don’t see tradition as a bad reason to keep them.

I like the idea of kicking History up to being a sub forum of SLAM, that seems more appropriate if its to be a forum for only high standards of discussion.
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Re: [Discussion] Archiving SWvST, PSW, PST

Post by AdmiralKanos » 2009-10-22 02:41pm

I like the idea of keeping SWvST as a locked subforum, and allowing future "vs" discussions, if any, to occur in the OSF forum. Meanwhile, PST and PSW could be kept around as subforums of OSF, which could be renamed SF. They're still making new Star Trek movies, and there's going to be new Star Wars content. As for History, it could easily become a separate forum rather than a subforum, but if it stays a subforum, I agree with the idea of moving it to SLAM.

EDIT: Dammit, I didn't realize that Sea Skimmer would post the exact same opinion as I did, albeit just a bit quicker.
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Re: [Discussion] Archiving SWvST, PSW, PST

Post by NecronLord » 2009-10-22 04:12pm

I’ve been giving this some thought, and at length think I would endorse making them sub-forums of OSF (SF). SW vs ST can go in OSF and be a locked sub-forum.

Therefore, my votes are as follows:
Proposal One: B – I would like to see History get more traffic to make it a full forum but that seems premature. Where it is, as a forum browser, I honestly don’t see it that much, but in SLAM I would.
Proposal Two: C
Proposal Three: C
Bounty wrote:If everything is thrown in together, it'll need some very solid rules and a dedicated moderating staff, because otherwise it'll only end in tears.
RedImperator wrote:I think Bounty's referring to the "trigger guards effect", where Trek threads are derailed by tryhards hurf-hurfing about how Trek sucks, the Federation is stupid, phasers don't have trigger guards, et cetera. He's probably thinking that putting Trek threads in a forum frequented by non-Trek fans will only make it worse. I agree that's a potential problem, but with good moderating, I think it could also generate an interest in Trek among non-Trekkies (Sonnenberg's reviews of good Trek episodes, for example, might get people interested in good Trek).
Bounty wrote:Not just that, STvSW has been a magnet for me-too'ers. The quality of discussion in both forums is a shitload below that in OSF most of the time.
Having always been primarily concerned with OSF, I can assure you that the problems you mention here will be stepped on in short order. Is ‘SF’ gets Star Trek content, I shall be making a point to sticky some kind of “taken as read” thread for criticisms of the engineering and such. In fact, I think I may do this regardless of what happens.
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Re: [Discussion] Archiving SWvST, PSW, PST

Post by fgalkin » 2009-10-22 04:26pm

That other OSF Mod agrees with what NecronLord said. :D

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Re: [Discussion] Archiving SWvST, PSW, PST

Post by Thanas » 2009-10-23 09:51am

Regarding the History Forum - Ray brings up a good point:
ray245 wrote:Since the Senate is discussing the issue of moving the History sub-forum, may I raise a point?

If the Senate is going to move the History sub-forum to SLAM, I think the sub-forum would be even less noticeable, given the fact that there are already 2 sub-forums in SLAM.

In my opinion, it would only serve to clutter the SLAM forum even more.
I concur with him.
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Re: [Discussion] Archiving SWvST, PSW, PST

Post by Dalton » 2009-10-23 10:29am

I think the History forum would be better suited in N&P, since they're likely to have more of a shared common userbase.
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Re: [Discussion] Archiving SWvST, PSW, PST

Post by Darth Wong » 2009-10-23 10:42am

If we get rid of some top-level forums, we'll shorten our main page index and it would be entirely feasible to make History a top-level forum and thus eliminate the question of which forum it fits into, since it isn't really a great fit for any of them. We're talking about nuking three top-level forums by making them into sub-forums of OSF, which would presumably be renamed SF. If we add one top-level forum by moving History to the front page, then that's still a net change of -2.
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Re: [Discussion] Archiving SWvST, PSW, PST

Post by Mr Bean » 2009-10-23 10:53am

Darth Wong wrote:If we get rid of some top-level forums, we'll shorten our main page index and it would be entirely feasible to make History a top-level forum and thus eliminate the question of which forum it fits into, since it isn't really a great fit for any of them. We're talking about nuking three top-level forums by making them into sub-forums of OSF, which would presumably be renamed SF. If we add one top-level forum by moving History to the front page, then that's still a net change of -2.
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Re: [Discussion] Archiving SWvST, PSW, PST

Post by fgalkin » 2009-10-23 11:32am

I was concerned that we'd be replacing a low-activity forum (the SWvsST, PSW, PST forums) with another forum with comparable activity, but you're right about it being a net change still in our favor.

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Re: [Discussion] Archiving SWvST, PSW, PST

Post by Coyote » 2009-10-23 11:43am

Just to complicate matters--

Maybe start with an "All Science Fiction" section which further breaks down thusly:

Versus Threads (SWvST; & all others-- Bab5 vs. Galactica, whatever)
Pure Discussion (as it says-- discuss them on their own merits)

Maybe a section for obscure series or anything involving original content-- "Babylon 5 versus my own creation: the Black Nebula Imperium", etc(?).
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