Israel-Palestine Moratorium

[Ted C]

Uraniun235 has suggested lifting the Israel-Palestine moratorium. I'm not sure how I feel about it, but current events in the region would certainly seem to invite discussion. As this was brought up in the House of Commons, I figure its probably worth bringing to the Senate.

Has the moratorium gone on long enough?
Has the situation in the Middle East changed enough to warrant lifting the moratorium?
Would it be possible to have substantive discussion of the topic now?

[Ender]

No, I don't think the situation has changed enough - in fact, how has the situation really changed at all? Israel is still an intrinsically racist state prompting the Palestinians to select violence as their means for social change, and the continued Arab commitment to the extinction of Israel (in part fueled by the fact it is a racist state) generates enough tension that Israel feels threatened enough to remain a racist state. That's the core issue, and the one that created the division leading to the moratorium. People took sides and argued which part of that balance was worse, with about as much resolution here as there is there.

And I definitely don't think forum demographics have changed enough to allow sane discussion of the issue. If anything I think it has gotten worse. And yes, if pressed I am willing to start pulling a "greatest hits" list of exceptionally stupid positions we have had here lately that we would never have seen back when the moratorium was put in place.

Leave it in place. The only thing that has changed over the years is the names of the people on either side of the issue. Both in real life and here.

My $0.02

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

Leave it in place. The recent events in the news only demonstrate that nothing has changed about that part of the world, and will likely never change until the Earth falls into the Sun. Ergo, all the reasons for imposing an IvP moratorium are just as valid today as they were when the moratorium was first enacted.

[Beowulf]

I don't really see anything as having changed in the past couple years. It's still going to degenerate into a screaming match where the only thing that happens is that people get pissed off at each other for being idiots.

[Coyote]

How about a temporary lift? Give it a sunset clause, say, after a week to see how things are done?

[Alyeska]

Any lift on the IVP ban would require heavy moderation. Perhaps a single IVP test thread with heavy moderator observance to keep the peace.

[Chris OFarrell]

And if you can only lift it with heavy moderation activity, jumping all over people when they 'go too far', then really what is the point of lifting it?

[Mr Bean]

Need I remind you all just because we are talking about the Israel-Palestine Moratorium does not mean the Moratorium is lifted?

Apperntly I do
The Israel-Palestine Moratorium is still in place, violating it is still breaking forum rules, and those who have will be dealt with.
There are two things that can raise the Moratorium, one is Darth Wong coming in and waving his hand and declaring it over and done with. The second is a full senate senate vote. Neither of which has occurred.
Be on notice.

[RedImperator]

If people want an IvP debate, let two people agree to a Coliseum match (without a commentary thread) and fight it out there. Otherwise, no way. I'd sanction a nitroglycerin juggling contest first.

[Imperial Overlord]

If people want an IvP debate, let two people agree to a Coliseum match (without a commentary thread) and fight it out there. Otherwise, no way. I'd sanction a nitroglycerin juggling contest first.

I concur.

[Coyote]

Consensus seems to be against; since my willingness to see the moratorium lifted was tentative and wary anyway, I'll fold my cards and agree that any potential IvP should be reserved for the controlled realm of the Coliseum.

[Sea Skimmer]

If anything has changed, the situation has just gotten more hopeless because both sides have become even less able to affect each other. Renewed debate is pointless.

[The Yosemite Bear]

If people want an IvP debate, let two people agree to a Coliseum match (without a commentary thread) and fight it out there. Otherwise, no way. I'd sanction a nitroglycerin juggling contest first.

I concur.

can I get a ytube link to the Nitroglycerin juggling contest?

[Connor MacLeod]

We basically have enough trouble to fix without inviting more trouble by lifting the moratorium.

I'd sanction a nitroglycerin juggling contest first.

That might be a good way to get rid of annoying people on the board

[Gil Hamilton]

I volunteer to juggle the nitroglycerine in any contest, as long as I get to choose which state of matter it is in.

As for the IvP moratorium, well, I don't see what's the point of lifting it. I'm not convinced that many people who have any real interest in it have any chance of actually reasonably discussing the issue with any flexibility. I would be interested in seeing a Coliseum match on the subject, and I concur with Red that no commentary should be allowed*.

(*In fact, I think no commentary should be allowed in any Coliseum match, because too many people will try to use it to debate by proxy. The point is a debate between two people, not two people and the whole of the peanut gallery.)

[RedImperator]

(*In fact, I think no commentary should be allowed in any Coliseum match, because too many people will try to use it to debate by proxy. The point is a debate between two people, not two people and the whole of the peanut gallery.)

This has been discussed before, but I'd make an exception if both sides agree to it and the subject isn't too controversial. For example, I would see no harm with a commentary thread for the aborted Thanas-Zeon thread (not that there are many people qualified to comment on it to begin with).

[Spyder]

Please tell me the moratorium isn't in place because of fears the debate would become too heated. What site is this again?

I was always under the impression it was there because IvP discussion was drowning N&P. If that's the case then with recent upgrades to the board software there's a vastly better solution: subforums.

An IvP subforum would keep all the nitro juggling contained in its own little box while still allowing people to express their arguments. Is this not why we're all here?

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

Please tell me the moratorium isn't in place because of fears the debate would become too heated. What site is this again?

I was always under the impression it was there because IvP discussion was drowning N&P. If that's the case then with recent upgrades to the board software there's a vastly better solution: subforums.

An IvP subforum would keep all the nitro juggling contained in its own little box while still allowing people to express their arguments. Is this not why we're all here?

Oh gods, not another subforum. The damned things have been breeding faster than MSRA in a hospital. I believe the moratorium is in place because most IvP debates tend to devolve into the same shouting matches over who's the bigger asshole that have been held ever since there was an I to be matched vs P. As a result, they almost never accomplish anything useful. Sure, if someone wants to debate IvP, let them do it in the Coliseum. Otherwise, it'd be more entertaining to watch the following bit of code execute:

Code: Select all

while(1)
{
     printf("Infinite loop, whee\n");
}

[Spyder]

Oh gods, not another subforum. The damned things have been breeding faster than MSRA in a hospital.

There are currently 8. An IvP subforum under N&P is hardly going damage the board experience for the average user.

I believe the moratorium is in place because most IvP debates tend to devolve into the same shouting matches over who's the bigger asshole that have been held ever since there was an I to be matched vs P. As a result, they almost never accomplish anything useful.

So what? If it's tucked away in a subforum there's no exposure for the average user unless they click the link.

Sure, if someone wants to debate IvP, let them do it in the Coliseum.

IvP's a huge topic and more then two people will probably want to have a crack at it. Setting up coliseum matches would take a lot mroe work.

Otherwise, it'd be more entertaining to watch the following bit of code execute:

You also have the option of not clicking the link.

[Knife]

Indeed. IIRC, and correct me if I am wrong, the IvP moratorium was due to spam of forum of debates that were all the same and turned to nothing but flames. If enough people want that, and Wong has no problem with it, why not give them their own little shit hole to do so tucked away in a corner some where. As it is, there are plenty of little shit holes for other particular groups on the board, why is this untouchable?

[Ghost Rider]

Indeed. IIRC, and correct me if I am wrong, the IvP moratorium was due to spam of forum of debates that were all the same and turned to nothing but flames. If enough people want that, and Wong has no problem with it, why not give them their own little shit hole to do so tucked away in a corner some where. As it is, there are plenty of little shit holes for other particular groups on the board, why is this untouchable?

I believe it's because we know what it is going to be. It would be loud, busy and eating it's own tail for the sake of eating it's own tail. There's no new ground it is going to tread, no new revelations, and the participants will scream at each other until one side or the other either becomes a nuclear crater or divine intervention causes them to love each other.

[Spyder]

I believe it's because we know what it is going to be. It would be loud, busy and eating it's own tail for the sake of eating it's own tail. There's no new ground it is going to tread, no new revelations, and the participants will scream at each other until one side or the other either becomes a nuclear crater or divine intervention causes them to love each other.

How can you say there's no new ground when no one's even trying? It may very well end up being loud, busy and eating its own tail but so what? The same thing happens in any controversy. The only difference with every other topic is that someone might wander into an N&P thread and learn something. If providing the opportunity for someone to go in, discuss and maybe even learn a thing or two about the conflict isn't a good enough reason for the subforum then why do we bother with any of it?

Also. it'll be tucked away in a subforum, if you're not going to go in there why would you give a shit what happens in there? What are we afraid of?

[RedImperator]

Also. it'll be tucked away in a subforum, if you're not going to go in there why would you give a shit what happens in there? What are we afraid of?

Another set of festering boils waiting to burst? If I thought people could get into flamewars over IvP, and then be cool with each other everywhere else, then I'd be a lot less reluctant to lift the moratorium? As it stands now? We've got enough petty vendettas and bullshit feuds as it is.

[Spyder]

Another set of festering boils waiting to burst? If I thought people could get into flamewars over IvP, and then be cool with each other everywhere else, then I'd be a lot less reluctant to lift the moratorium? As it stands now? We've got enough petty vendettas and bullshit feuds as it is.

Then perhaps we'll get a few more bans out of it. Vendettas and bullshit feuds are symptoms of shit posters, not shit topics. A person who's prone to starting vendettas will likely find plenty of reasons to start one without IvP.

I'll agree that we may see some vendettas begin over IvP, however they're a problem that we'll have to deal with anyway and it allowing the discussion is worth having some arseholes expose themselves for two reasons; It opens the option to discuss IvP to good posters and it brings SDN more inline with its reputation (goals?) as a hard talk debate site.

[Stark]

If there are regular posters who are going to flip out and vendetta/feud/otherwise break the rules, shouldn't we WANT to ban them? I mean, if I was a perfectly well-balanced guy and then started trolling and talking shit with regard to IvP/Batman/quantum physics, wouldn't you just ban me? Shouldn't people with that kind of fixation be banned? We ban people for other 'hot topic' nonsense without batting an eye, after all, and frankly I doubt the hubbub would last beyond one or two high-profile bannings. In any case, these people deserve it whether IvP is blocked or not. It'll just flush out people's irrational or unacceptable board behaviour if we allow it again.