[Discussion] Reintroduction of measures in an amended form.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

As a question, does a policy exist at this point for reintroducing measures in an amended fashion? For example--and this is what I'm primarily thinking of--if any part of a measure to ban/title/remove privilages fails to gain a majority, can it be reintroduced with some of the options removed? I'm thinking of situations where there's a definite majority in favour of punishing someone, but no majority for any specific form of punishment, so that the measure could be, for instance, reintroduced with only a weak form of punishment proposed so as to give the opportunity to create a unaminous opinion among those who support at least some kind of punishment.

[Coyote]

I think there should just be a re-posting with modifications made, although there is the danger that someone will essentially "keep fishing" until they get what they want. (I admit that is a rather farfetched danger, and one covered by the "no vendetta" rule, but still possible).

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Another question:

Why is there just an "Abstain" option instead of there also being a "No punishment" option in the punishment polls?

[RedImperator]

Another question:

Why is there just an "Abstain" option instead of there also being a "No punishment" option in the punishment polls?

There should be a "no punishment" option on every punishment poll.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Another question:

Why is there just an "Abstain" option instead of there also being a "No punishment" option in the punishment polls?

There should be a "no punishment" option on every punishment poll.

Is the lack of one grounds to invalidate the results of a poll and allow for its reintroduction in a corrected and possibly modified form? Because that would have an immediate effect on the ongoing Velthuijsen poll.

[Coyote]

I think you're the first person to really bring it up, and we've pretty much gone with the idea that "Abstain = No Punishment" in spirit (my take on it, anyway).

But it would be a good idea to make that an option from here on out.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Abstention, in my mind, means "present for quorum but not tendering an opinion". To me, an absention explicitly excludes one's vote from the majority calculations required for the result of the poll.

For example, if 20 Senators abstained out of 52, then only 17 votes would be required to title someone in the poll (half + 1 of the remaining 32 who voted for an actual option).

Furthermore, since bannings are Class A votes and titlings and lesser punishments are class B votes according to the Senate rules, it is EXTREMELY dodgy to me that they can be included together in the same poll. It would make much more sense if two separate threads were started, one for banning and one for a lesser punishment. If the vote was to ban (by 60% or better), bye-bye. If the ban vote fails and the lesser punishment vote succeeds by 50% or better, the lesser punishment is given. If both votes fail to garner the necessary support, the subject is considered innocent.

[Dalton]

Marina makes an excellent point. All polls should include a "No Punishment" option.

[Spyder]

The previous poll didn't take into account whether people are abstaining because they believed the person innocent or because they were uncomfortable with the available options.

I agree with having No Punishment in the polls. I also think that we should look out how we handle DRs as there may be other methods to ensure they are enforceable.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

The previous poll didn't take into account whether people are abstaining because they believed the person innocent or because they were uncomfortable with the available options.

I agree with having No Punishment in the polls. I also think that we should look out how we handle DRs as there may be other methods to ensure they are enforceable.

I think first DR offences when referred to the Senate should always be a less-than-banning offence only, unless it is a DR #7 violation. Second offence should be a ban poll, however. Two strikes and you're out.

We need more Village Idiots, and first DR violations for offences #1 - 6 will provide them aplenty.

[Sea Skimmer]

I think too many people are banned too fast. Sure plenty of them are just morons who will never learn, but we have seen more then one apparent moron turn around after getting the message, and becoming a productive member of the forums. I’m not going to name names on that issue though, and I’d ask that no one else does. It makes no sense to me to have gone to all the complication of the senate just to ban about 75% of people out of hand.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I think too many people are banned too fast. Sure plenty of them are just morons who will never learn, but we have seen more then one apparent moron turn around after getting the message, and becoming a productive member of the forums. I’m not going to name names on that issue though, and I’d ask that no one else does. It makes no sense to me to have gone to all the complication of the senate just to ban about 75% of people out of hand.

I definitely concur with this opinion.

Back in the old ASVS days, we loved nothing more than to have morons who couldn't debate there to bash around on.

We should reserve bannings as a punishment for DR violations for repeat offenders of the DR's (except DR #7) only.

[Kuja]

I think too many people are banned too fast. Sure plenty of them are just morons who will never learn, but we have seen more then one apparent moron turn around after getting the message, and becoming a productive member of the forums. I’m not going to name names on that issue though, and I’d ask that no one else does. It makes no sense to me to have gone to all the complication of the senate just to ban about 75% of people out of hand.

I agree with Sea Skimmer. We have the VI title for a reason, we've even had folks who managed to get it removed, albeit temporarily. I think lately the banhammer has been tossed around a little too heavily.

[Coyote]

This, too, has been my thought for awhile.

[Lord Poe]

Interesting. I'll alsos econd the "no punishment" option.