[VOTING] History Forum Moderation.

A failed experiment whereby board users were invited to advise the Senate, and instead attempted to replace the Senate.
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[VOTING] History Forum Moderation.

Post by MKSheppard » 2009-01-04 03:32pm

My lawyers on retainer (Dewey, Cheatem & Howe) have advised me of the fact that the History forum is now moderated by Stas Bush and Thanas; despite my legimitate victory via board vote:

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4 -MKSheppard (History) 13% [ 47 ]
3 -Thanas (History) 10% [ 36 ] x
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Re: [VOTING] History Forum Moderation.

Post by Enigma » 2009-01-04 03:40pm

History:
Thanas GMT+1 and EST time zones. Would defer to Stas Bush if Stas becomes History mod.
MKSheppard (Eastern US time zone)
Stas was to take one of the History mod positions if he was elected, so that would mean that the History Moderators are Stas and Shep *IF* Wong or any of the powers that be decided to go use the election results. What happened now could be either one of two things, A) they goofed and it should have been Shep not Thanas or B)It was intentional.
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Re: [VOTING] History Forum Moderation.

Post by Thanas » 2009-01-04 04:02pm

It was definitely intentional.
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Re: [VOTING] History Forum Moderation.

Post by Lonestar » 2009-01-04 04:22pm

Without getting into personality conflicts, I think Shep is a bit more qualified than freakin' Thanas as History mod. He certainly has shown that he is not a big abuser of power with Imperial Wiki, and has a long history of, well, detailed exposition on history topics.
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Re: [VOTING] History Forum Moderation.

Post by Losonti Tokash » 2009-01-04 05:48pm

Again, no disrespect to Thanas, but this kinda sucks. As someone pointed out in the chat, back when Shep was a horseman he even resigned because he felt his personal issues were getting in the way of his job and I somehow doubt he would go on a killing spree if he were given modship of a subforum on a subject that he's particularly interested in and knowledgeable about.

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Re: [VOTING] History Forum Moderation.

Post by Enigma » 2009-01-04 06:02pm

Thanas wrote:It was definitely intentional.
Care to explain? Your response alone to me sounds like an intentional jab.
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Re: [VOTING] History Forum Moderation.

Post by Havok » 2009-01-04 08:01pm

Well as was stated, the voting was not a representation of how things were going to be, and just a general consensus and suggestion from the board at large that Mike and the Admins could accept or not. Looks like it was "not".
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Re: [VOTING] History Forum Moderation.

Post by CmdrWilkens » 2009-01-04 08:03pm

Alternatively it could be poitned out that, and Coyote made wthis point MANY times, the board vote was a NON-BINDING reolution. In other words the "vote" as with the polling in regards to all other forum moderation issues was merely a suggestion that the admin staff could take under consideration.

Part of the reaosn I declined to participate is that the polls conducted had no authority in and of themselves except as a popularity contest for individuals perceived as being ready for Mod positions.
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Re: [VOTING] History Forum Moderation.

Post by MKSheppard » 2009-01-04 08:27pm

CmdrWilkens wrote:In other words the "vote" as with the polling in regards to all other forum moderation issues was merely a suggestion that the admin staff could take under consideration.
So effectively anything we do in here, the house of commons, has no binding effect at all -- it's just a more rarified, high brow version of Testingstan.

With that in mind, since nothing we do here has any effect, we must immediately vote on whether to make "Bleeding Milkbag Whores" (c) Shroomy our new board motto, instead of "Get your fill of sci-fi, science, and mockery of stupid people"
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Re: [VOTING] History Forum Moderation.

Post by Havok » 2009-01-04 08:31pm

MKSheppard wrote:
CmdrWilkens wrote:In other words the "vote" as with the polling in regards to all other forum moderation issues was merely a suggestion that the admin staff could take under consideration.
So effectively anything we do in here, the house of commons, has no binding effect at all -- it's just a more rarified, high brow version of Testingstan.

With that in mind, since nothing we do here has any effect, we must immediately vote on whether to make "Bleeding Milkbag Whores" (c) Shroomy our new board motto, instead of "Get your fill of sci-fi, science, and mockery of stupid people"
Pretty much. It is a suggestion forum to the Senate, which itself is a suggestion forum to the Admins. Of course if you had read what Coyote wrote, your panties wouldn't be all up in a twist now. :wink:
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Re: [VOTING] History Forum Moderation.

Post by Mr. Coffee » 2009-01-04 08:46pm

Essentially, for all the talk about having a board "senate", and all the "hey, let's give the plebes a say" with the HoC, the board is still run by whim an decree and personal grudges still apply. Suck to be you, Shep. I thought you'd have made a damned good history mod, homie.
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Re: [VOTING] History Forum Moderation.

Post by Gandalf » 2009-01-04 08:47pm

What makes you think it's a personal grudge related ruling?
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Re: [VOTING] History Forum Moderation.

Post by Pablo Sanchez » 2009-01-04 08:57pm

MKSheppard wrote:So effectively anything we do in here, the house of commons, has no binding effect at all
Mr.Coffee wrote:Essentially, for all the talk about having a board "senate", and all the "hey, let's give the plebes a say" with the HoC, the board is still run by whim an decree and personal grudges still apply.
Yes, you are essentially correct, and nothing that occurs in the Senate has binding effect, either. What you are talking about is layers of influence on policy, which proceeds from admins and Mike specifically. The House of Commons can be considered the outermost "official" forum; it is open to all and dedicated specifically to board issues, but because there is no selection at work in its membership the opinions there expressed carry less influence than the Senate, whose membership is selective. Ordinary staff, like myself, are empowered to enforce policy and, in the manner that they do so, alter its impact. Also, given that we are the sort trusted to enforce the rules, our opinions with respect to the same are privileged a higher value than the Senate. Admins are another level higher in terms of their ability to enforce policy as well as change it, and finally we have Mike, who is the final word.

None of this has ever even been a secret.

This does not mean that what you say in this forum has no practical effect, however, because we are paying attention to it and at least putting forth a minimal effort to keep you happy. It is also remotely possible for you to have good ideas we haven't come up with yet, and your requests form a useful justification to cite when breaking bureaucratic inertia.
Lonestar wrote:Without getting into personality conflicts, I think Shep is a bit more qualified than freakin' Thanas as History mod.
What qualifications are you talking about? Raw knowledge of history or your own personal familiarity with the candidate?
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Re: [VOTING] History Forum Moderation.

Post by Mr. Coffee » 2009-01-04 09:08pm

Actuallty I was commenting morew about people holding grudges more then anything there, Pablo. I don't give a fuck who they are or how high up the food chain on the board they are, anyone that can say with a straight face that Shep wouldn't do an outstanding job as a History sub-forum mod is smoking crack.
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Re: [VOTING] History Forum Moderation.

Post by Pablo Sanchez » 2009-01-04 09:28pm

Mr. Coffee wrote:Actuallty I was commenting morew about people holding grudges more then anything there, Pablo.
I wasn't privy to how the decision to pick Thanas was made, but to my knowledge no one who could realistically be accused of bearing a grudge against Shep was even involved; most of those people (Shep, at least, knows who I'm talking about) are basically on the inactive list anyway.

I'm also wary of speculation about these grudges moving the topic into really acrimonious territory.
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Re: [VOTING] History Forum Moderation.

Post by Mr. Coffee » 2009-01-04 10:01pm

Whichever. Just adds more reason for me to laugh my ass off at anyone that takes either the HoC or the Senate seriously, Commissar Homie.
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Re: [VOTING] History Forum Moderation.

Post by Lonestar » 2009-01-04 10:03pm

Pablo Sanchez wrote:
What qualifications are you talking about? Raw knowledge of history or your own personal familiarity with the candidate?
Cute Pablo. Shep does have an encyclopedic knowledge of History, but then, so does Stas and Zeon, both of whom were considered for History modship in the Senate. I might add that there's nothing wrong with raw of knowledge, of, well, the subject matter of the forum in question.
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Re: [VOTING] History Forum Moderation.

Post by Mr. Coffee » 2009-01-04 10:09pm

Yeah, when it comes to military history, Shep's like Rainman.
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Re: [VOTING] History Forum Moderation.

Post by ray245 » 2009-01-04 10:33pm

However, Thanas seems to have DETAILED knowledge of stuff that most people is unsure of. It is harder to find a good classical era historian as compared to a modern military one.

The lack of available info is one reason why the study of the classical age is much harder. Moreover, it is wise to point out that Thanas did publish several short and useful essays in the History forums.

It is not common see to see Roman Historians online tacking or going against Gibbon or Luttwak's works. Moreover, Thanas seems to have a stronger grasp of the Historical methods to judge if the essay that was published in question is reliable or accurate.

It is my view that for one to be a good history mod, you need to have a strong grasp in the historical methods used by professional historians, when they are doing peer review.
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Re: [VOTING] History Forum Moderation.

Post by K. A. Pital » 2009-01-04 10:51pm

To be fair, Shep, my knowledge of ancient history and most of the stuff preceding the Industrial Revolution (XVII-XX centuries) is... kinda lacking, and neither is it your pick as well, but this period also generates a fair share of threads.

And even very good moderation on military, political and industrial threads for all those centuries leaves a huge whole field of history untouched, which is not good.
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Re: [VOTING] History Forum Moderation.

Post by Alyeska » 2009-01-05 12:32am

I'm all for democracy here (old story, don't ask), but I have to wonder something. Shouldn't the criteria for whom moderates the history forum be the person who is best suited to the task of moderating itself? I know that being knowledgeable on history helps greatly, and being popular in the polls itself is rather fun, but still...

Anyway, Shep seems to be the favored candidate. He has the knowledge, and he hasn't blown up any forums recently. Why not let Shep, Stas and Thanas moderate said forum for better coverage?
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Re: [VOTING] History Forum Moderation.

Post by Pablo Sanchez » 2009-01-05 02:01am

Lonestar wrote:Cute Pablo. Shep does have an encyclopedic knowledge of History, but then, so does Stas and Zeon, both of whom were considered for History modship in the Senate. I might add that there's nothing wrong with raw of knowledge, of, well, the subject matter of the forum in question.
I wasn't arguing that there was anything wrong with knowing a lot about history, I was just wondering why you thought Shep necessarily knew more about it that Thanas. Not only does Thanas have a strong base of knowledge in classical history, he also appears to be trained in historical method. I don't think he's ever come out and explicitly cited his educational background, and I wouldn't ask him to do so, but just issuing a blanket statement that Shep knows more about history than Thanas simply isn't fair or necessarily accurate.
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Re: [VOTING] History Forum Moderation.

Post by ray245 » 2009-01-05 04:57am

I was wondering, why do we have to limit history mods to 2 people? Why can't it be 3?
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Re: [VOTING] History Forum Moderation.

Post by Lonestar » 2009-01-05 05:32am

Pablo Sanchez wrote:
I wasn't arguing that there was anything wrong with knowing a lot about history, I was just wondering why you thought Shep necessarily knew more about it that Thanas. Not only does Thanas have a strong base of knowledge in classical history, he also appears to be trained in historical method. I don't think he's ever come out and explicitly cited his educational background, and I wouldn't ask him to do so, but just issuing a blanket statement that Shep knows more about history than Thanas simply isn't fair or necessarily accurate.
Well, when I think of "History nuts" on this board, Shep, Zeon, and Stas come to mind(and Skimmer as well). I didn't even know who Thanas was when I saw the half-started recent match. I freely admit that Shep knows more about the "stuff that goes boom" era of history than any other, but a not insignificant number of history threads are from that era rather than classical times. Certainly a number of threads disproportionate to the actual time span of history.

But as long as we're talking about educational background being important(forgetting for the moment that the historical method isn't unknown to Shep, he goes out to college campuses and research centers on his own to look up archival stuff), why not just toss RI in there as he has a degree in history>
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Re: [VOTING] History Forum Moderation.

Post by Edi » 2009-01-05 06:19am

Red's already a supermod and he's on a self-imposed break anyway. Pablo has already said everything else that needs saying.
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