[Discussion] Coliseum Policy Ideas

A failed experiment whereby board users were invited to advise the Senate, and instead attempted to replace the Senate.
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ray245
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Re: RE: Coliseum

Post by ray245 » 2008-11-27 11:21am

Coyote wrote:
ray245 wrote:If you don't put up a restriction, NOTHING will be done. The Senate will simply spend another year trying to find a 'good' debate.

You set up a deadline, open it up to the public and let the senate choose two debaters by a certain date.

Announce the entry submission and say when will the registration date end.

The timetable isn't there for the members, it is for the senate to get things done.
We can't make people be interested in a topic. Real motivation derives from the people who would be the participants; see the set-up with Bubble Boy and Alyrium Denryle over Intelligent Design...
Never the less, continue to set up a deadline or time table.

If there isn't enough people interested in a certain month, just announce there will be no matches this month due to a lack of particpation.

Eventually, there will be interest in the coliseum if the senate actually make a move.

If the senate don't make a move, we will wait for years just to see another debate as compared to waiting for months to see another debate.

I think many members will not mind arguing against their personal stand, given the interest I've seen in this topic.

I think many people are interested in a debate for the sake of debating. Given that many people who are in debating society likes to debate not because they are arguing for their personal views, but join those clubs for the enjoyment of debating and arguing.

Look at the World's debate tournament, often people are not given a chance to argue for their personal stand and views. Yet people like myself continue to enjoy that debate.

If possible, can the Senate hold a referendum and see how many people don't mind debating against their personal views, or don't really mind what kind of motion they are given?

I think the senate might be surprised by how many people don't mind what kind of topic the debate is about.

:D
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Re: RE: Coliseum

Post by Coyote » 2008-11-27 11:36am

Well, that's what's happening WRT the BB-AD match being put up in the Coliseum now. The go-date has been agreed to, it starts December 7th, with an off-day declared for the 11th because Alyrium has exams that day.

The idea of a "topic of the month" default has been broached before and generally agreed to, but again, we can only provide so much. If we sponsor a war and no one shows up to fight, then there's definitely no match that month.

Or get some of the folks here who get into the military vehicle debates to argue the utility of, say, light-wheeled mobility forces in modern political realities vs. heavy, track-based weapons systems. One round would focus on the mobility aspect, one round on the economics of it, and one round on the field value in combat, for example.

Not all debates have to be serious topics, nor reflecting world politics. For example, we could see if someone would be willing to argue a Star Trek/Star Wars aspect of some sort, or other 'verses.

We could get into softer, social-science/social aspect stuff, like are women in science fiction these days portrayed more as decoration or are they seriously portrayed as dynamic leadership material? Is a "combat chick" who can kick ass in her skintight suit and heels really a serious portrayal or is she just a really active decor?

I'm just trying to pull things from different directions to see what bites.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!

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Re: RE: Coliseum

Post by ray245 » 2008-11-27 11:48am

Coyote wrote:Well, that's what's happening WRT the BB-AD match being put up in the Coliseum now. The go-date has been agreed to, it starts December 7th, with an off-day declared for the 11th because Alyrium has exams that day.

The idea of a "topic of the month" default has been broached before and generally agreed to, but again, we can only provide so much. If we sponsor a war and no one shows up to fight, then there's definitely no match that month.

Or get some of the folks here who get into the military vehicle debates to argue the utility of, say, light-wheeled mobility forces in modern political realities vs. heavy, track-based weapons systems. One round would focus on the mobility aspect, one round on the economics of it, and one round on the field value in combat, for example.

Not all debates have to be serious topics, nor reflecting world politics. For example, we could see if someone would be willing to argue a Star Trek/Star Wars aspect of some sort, or other 'verses.

We could get into softer, social-science/social aspect stuff, like are women in science fiction these days portrayed more as decoration or are they seriously portrayed as dynamic leadership material? Is a "combat chick" who can kick ass in her skintight suit and heels really a serious portrayal or is she just a really active decor?

I'm just trying to pull things from different directions to see what bites.
If there is no interest in a certain month, then I agree there is nothing that can be done. However, we can always open it up for a special round debate that is not the motion provided by the Senate.

Which is why I argued for a special round debates as well. The 'debate of the month' is the thing that ensures that the coliseum are active to begin with, while the special round debates can ensure even if the motion put forward by the Senate is not taken up by anyone, we can always have another debate if someone requested for it.

Other than that, we CAN host a Special round and Official debate at the same time.

A military vechicle debates can be classified as a special round debate, mainly due to the fact that there will be less people around to debate about those issues. To debate about things like these requires a certain amount of in-depth knowledge.

On the other hand, social or political issues is something that can be argued base on principles as compared to hard facts. Hence, more people will be able to argue on those issues and ensure there will be a certain amount of people interested and are able to debate in.

If anything, I will be happy to help the Senate draft a set of timetable for the Coliseum.
Humans are such funny creatures. We are selfish about selflessness, yet we can love something so much that we can hate something.

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Re: RE: Coliseum

Post by Coyote » 2008-11-27 11:52am

Sounds like we have a sucke...err, I mean, a volunteer! :mrgreen:
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!

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Re: RE: Coliseum

Post by ray245 » 2008-11-27 11:59am

Coyote wrote:Sounds like we have a sucke...err, I mean, a volunteer! :mrgreen:
Well, I like to see actions being done.

I think Senators might want to provide me with a rough idea what the senate wants to have. Should we have more interest in regards to social issues, economic issues or political issues?
Humans are such funny creatures. We are selfish about selflessness, yet we can love something so much that we can hate something.

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Re: RE: Coliseum

Post by Coyote » 2008-11-27 12:03pm

ray245 wrote:
Coyote wrote:Sounds like we have a sucke...err, I mean, a volunteer! :mrgreen:
Well, I like to see actions being done.
Then watch more porno.
I think Senators might want to provide me with a rough idea what the senate wants to have. Should we have more interest in regards to social issues, economic issues or political issues?
Y'all volunteered for this 'cause you said the Senate wasn't coming up with some awesome ideas for Thunderdome. Then you go and ask us for ideas? No, sir, if you want to be Aunty Entity, pull up a list of ideas you think are cool and start casting your bread upon the water and see what gets attention, sir! :wink:
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!

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Re: RE: Coliseum

Post by ray245 » 2008-11-27 12:22pm

Coyote wrote: Then watch more porno.
Ahem, I mean people making a final decision.

Y'all volunteered for this 'cause you said the Senate wasn't coming up with some awesome ideas for Thunderdome. Then you go and ask us for ideas? No, sir, if you want to be Aunty Entity, pull up a list of ideas you think are cool and start casting your bread upon the water and see what gets attention, sir! :wink:
Alright then, the first draft can be ready by friday night.
Humans are such funny creatures. We are selfish about selflessness, yet we can love something so much that we can hate something.

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Re: RE: Coliseum

Post by ray245 » 2008-11-28 12:52pm

The following post is an initial draft as a time table for the Coliseum.


The Senate will open up the Coliseum and release the motion of a debate on the starting of the month to the members in the forum. Submission entry deadline is on the 5th of every month.

In regards to the selection process for the participants, the senate will reach a decision on the 7th of every month, and people are selected on a first come first serve basis. Note that the senate will not be able to choose the participants, as the ability to select the members will only be given for those joining in a special round debate.


The debate will formally start on the 10th of every month, and users are restricted to a posting limit and a time limit. It is to ensure a debate can come to a conclusion easily and prevent any act of flaming in the Coliseum.

January: Scientific debates, motion selected and chosen by the Senate or Mike, debating for your personal stance.
February: Political debates, Motion taken from the public discussion board, debating against your personal stance
March: Economic debates, selected motion, debating side chosen at random by the senate (you may or may not debate against your personal stand)
April: Humour round debate, person who made the funniest arguments wins the debate
May: Sci-fi fantasy debates, motion selected, against your personal stand.
June: philosophical/ moral debate, motion taken from discussion board, for your personal stand.
July: Scientific debate, motion taken from discussion board, debating against your personal stand.
August: Political debates, Motion taken from the public discussion board, debating for your personal stance
September: Economic debates, motion taken from the public discussion, debating for your personal stand.
October: Sci-fi fantasy debates, motion selected, for your personal stand.
November: Political debates, Motion taken from the public discussion board, debating side chosen at random by the senate.
December: Economic debates, motion taken from the public discussion, debating side chosen at random.

Special round debates: hosted together with the official debate, if an issue not related to the type of motion in that month was getting interesting and is heavily discussed by the forum.

Special round debates include history debates and any other debates that is not listed in the above list as well.

Submission or request for a special round debate needs to be made by two participants as compared to one. This is to reduce the needless amount of request that only one person will be interested in.




Ask about the changes that needs to be made.
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Re: RE: Coliseum

Post by Coyote » 2008-11-28 02:01pm

I like it. We'll put it to Discussion.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!

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Re: RE: Coliseum

Post by Ace Pace » 2008-11-29 02:53am

Coyote wrote:I like it. We'll put it to Discussion.
I don't, as I mentioned in the Coli, theres a large overhead. SDN does not have a good track record for overhead and limiting the subjects for debate for each month (even if we can have multiple concurrent ones) sounds boring.
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Getting Into the Coliseum

Post by Coyote » 2008-12-09 10:42am

CHALLENGERS TO THE COLISEUM:


Contact an Admin (Governor or above) via PM if you wish to bring up a debate in the Coliseum. Before you bug them, however, make sure you and your opponent have some idea of what you intend to do:


SETTING UP DEBATES:
Here is what you do to get into the Coliseum:

1- NOBLE'S DUEL: You and an opponent agree to debate something in the Coliseum.
2- THUNDERDOME: You are in a debate elsewhere on the board and feel you are being ganged up on/dogpiled, and challenge your opponents to pick a champion to debate one-on-one in the Coliseum. Two may enter, one may leave.

TYPES OF DEBATES:
Debates in the Coliseum can be Structured or Freestyle.

STRUCTURED: You agree to a set number of rounds and/or time. For example, you may agree to five posts each within a two-week time period. One person leads, the other responds. After each has given their five posts, a winner should be determined. (NOTE: "Five posts" is given as an example; you can agree to any set number within reason).

FREESTYLE: You go at each other with nothing but standard board rules for logic & debate.


DEBATE SCHEDULING:
Ideally, a debate will be picked at the beginning of each month; scheduled, and forms agreed to, by no later than the 7th of each month (the first week). That will typically leave three weeks in the month to fight it out. The day of the 7th is when the opening shots are fired.

If a Freestyle debate is going to spill over into the next month, and no one else has made reservations for the Coliseum, then the Freestyle debate can continue. If, however, someone else's reservations are looming, then a Moderator (at least a Governor) will tell the participants to wrap it up within the next post or two.


A NOTE ON TIMING:
Many debates will be carried out against opponents who are in different countries and different time zones. Bear this in mind when scheduling a debate; also, bear in mind different holidays or school schedules coming up when an opponent may be away. At a minimum, there should be a grace period of 48 hours from post-time to response; when cutting across weekends allow for 72 hours or more. It is best to agree beforehand on what will be the maximum allowance of time for a response.

Blowing the grace period twice in a row will be considered a Forefeit, unless prior agreements are made publicly.

*****************************

MONTHLY PROPOSALS:
If there are no challengers, then a series of monthly set proposals can be argued by any interested parties. It is encouraged that debaters at SDN occassionally hone their skills by challenging themselves to try arguing on behalf of a position or stance they do not actually agree with as a challenge. Monthly set-piece debates are a good opportunity to try this, since these are not necessarily personal in nature, but suggested.

Monthly motions will be selected from the public forums and chosen by the Senate, Governors, or Emperor (Mike).

January: Scientific debates.
February: Political debates.
March: Economic debates.
April: Humour round debate, person who made the funniest (yet still logical!) arguments wins.
May: Sci-fi/fantasy debates.
June: philosophical/ morality & ethics debate.
July: Scientific debate.
August: Political debates.
September: Economic debates.
October: Sci-fi/fantasy debates.
November: Political debates.
December: Economic debates.

***************************

FORM AND ETIQUETTE:
"Drop the Matter/Forfeit" -- If you agree to a debate, and then decide to back out, you have to negotiate with your opponent. If you can get your opponent to agree to put it off or drop the matter, that's is your opponent's decision should they choose to be merciful. But be warned: If you fail to secure your opponent's agreement, it is not a Drop, but a Forfeit in favor of your opponent!

"I'm not prepared!" -- If you come to a debate unprepared, that is your fault. You can bargain for a Drop, a Forefeit, or a Reschedule, but if your opponent refuses, then you're going in there on thin ice, buddy.

"But... but... I won!" -- If no clear winner can be determined, then the matter can be decided by a decree from the Moderator that was watching; basically the 'thumbs up/thumbs down'. Or, the matter can be decided by popular vote in th eHouse of Commons.

"I'm on limited time!" -- If you are on limited time, then maybe you should put off your fight until you have time, or not participate at all. Time can be a crucial factor, especially if you are debating someone in another time zone who may also have other workdays or holidays that will add lag time between responses.

"@!$%&*!" -- There are no Nanny Rules governing Politeness at SDN. However, the more you can argue and make your point in a dignified manner, with class and creative style rather than gutter vulgarities, the more respectable you appear.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!

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Re: Getting Into the Coliseum

Post by Ace Pace » 2008-12-09 10:45am

Why should we even mind if theres multiple debates in the Coli at the same time? If your format, or free style, leads to more than a single month of debate, whats the problem? Thread titles should be descriptive enough that you don't have to wonder which debate to watch.
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Re: Getting Into the Coliseum

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2008-12-09 10:46am

Ace Pace wrote:Why should we even mind if theres multiple debates in the Coli at the same time? If your format, or free style, leads to more than a single month of debate, whats the problem? Thread titles should be descriptive enough that you don't have to wonder which debate to watch.
I have to second this. Is their any reason why their cannot be multiple debates at a time?
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Re: Getting Into the Coliseum

Post by Coyote » 2008-12-09 10:56am

Wouldn't bother me; I was under the impression that this would be one-at-a-time, but that was not because of any particular direction from up on high.

I posted this twice, once in the Senate and once here, and no one said anything, so I put it up here so we could start getting a schedule together. Lo and Behold, my "Make Sticky" application isn't available. :?

We can have multiple debates in the Coliseum, provided the staff thinks that's a good idea. But we don't want it to become just a branch office of the N&P forum, either. We want to keep it special. :wink:
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!

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Re: Getting Into the Coliseum

Post by Ace Pace » 2008-12-09 11:05am

Then we assume the people in charge of giving yay/nays are sensibile people and won't add every debate to the coli just because. It's not very complicated and doesn't need a bunch of rules to regulate what can go in or not.
As per what you said,
Contact an Admin (Governor or above) via PM if you wish to bring up a debate in the Coliseum. Before you bug them, however, make sure you and your opponent have some idea of what you intend to do:
An idea of what you intend to do is not "I have an itch to scratch on this subject and I want to debate infront of the entire forum." so we can assume mods are not idiots and won't approve something like that.
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Re: Getting Into the Coliseum

Post by Coyote » 2008-12-09 11:11am

It may well be time to resurrect the Coliseum Policy discussion.

[EDIT: Done and merged.]

I, for one, would like to have at least one or two dedicated people to go to for Coliseum stuff.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!

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Re: [Discussion] Coliseum Policy Ideas

Post by ray245 » 2008-12-09 11:32am

Meaning create a mods for the coliseum?

Could work, and they can actually keep the Coliseum active.
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Re: [Discussion] Coliseum Policy Ideas

Post by Coyote » 2008-12-09 12:07pm

I think it'll be plenty active on its own-- there's a lot of response being generated.

But dedicated Coliseum mods? No, it's overboard. Having a couple supermods and a couple non-fiction mods in there to serve as referees is more than enough. What we really need, as we saw this weekend, was just a dedicated name to go to who will serve as the "keeper of the keys" to allow posting in there.

Any forum- or super- moderator can delete the posts of nosy interlopers that can't contain themselves from posting while two people are duking it out.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!

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Re: [Discussion] Coliseum Policy Ideas

Post by Ace Pace » 2008-12-09 12:09pm

Coyote wrote:I think it'll be plenty active on its own-- there's a lot of response being generated.

But dedicated Coliseum mods? No, it's overboard. Having a couple supermods and a couple non-fiction mods in there to serve as referees is more than enough. What we really need, as we saw this weekend, was just a dedicated name to go to who will serve as the "keeper of the keys" to allow posting in there.

Any forum- or super- moderator can delete the posts of nosy interlopers that can't contain themselves from posting while two people are duking it out.
"Appoint" (I use the word loosely) some person who anyway has authority to do stuff there, to be in charge. Criteria is simple, not an idiot (a given) and regularly available to look at challenges.
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Re: [Discussion] Coliseum Policy Ideas

Post by Coyote » 2008-12-09 12:14pm

A lot of things on the board right now are dependent on what sort of decisions are made WRT moderator staff. Once we have a clear idea where that is going, then responsibilities can be doled out for these sorts of specifics.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!

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Re: [Discussion] Coliseum Policy Ideas

Post by Mr Bean » 2008-12-09 02:33pm

Here's how the Coliseum is going to work.
It's my newest private little fief, not by wish but by need.
This Coliseum has been open since March


Do you know how many matchups we've had so far?
One. Frigging ONE. Much is talked about but nothing gets done.
Therefor to get this thing rolling I'm taking charge of the Coliseum. Pending Mike slapping me down for my presumption. I intend to lay out a formal process to start debates/fights/matches in the Coliseum.

I have most of it put togther in my head first, awaiting only final approval from the admin staff. Once I have that and the forum unlocked I'll be laying out my initial framework of operation. To give you a hint I intend for possible topics to come from the Senators, PM's to me directly, and then when I have a few topics I'll take it here to look for members willing to take up both sides.

To ensure a good matchup I'll ask prospective gladiators to send me a PM with part of their OP for whatever side they want. If I'm satisfied I'll start announce the pair let them hash out the time between posts then start a thread in the Coliseum and let them go at it. I very much intend in true Coliseum fashion to get a schedule going.

"A cult is a religion with no political power." -Tom Wolfe
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Re: [Discussion] Coliseum Policy Ideas

Post by ray245 » 2009-05-15 01:31pm

I am raising this question, if the moderating staff or the general community within this forum is ever going to be interested in having a debate again?

It will be nice to have a policy debate, where one side sets up a policy in a specific context, and defend things like its feasibility and etc. I think it will be useful for us to always tie whatever we hope to see happening into context, understanding the difference between the desired outcome and the actual outcome.

One reason I thought about this idea is the fact that Mike has pointed to us countless times for example, that Obama isn't a liberal president, and everyone got to stop expecting him to be a liberal president. On how certain policy, no matter how morally right it is, simply cannot be implemented in the US or in another country, due to the lack of public support or public outcry.

That the goals of a debate shifted away from what morally justifiable position you have to take as a person and towards how would you achieve certain goals in a certain context. It becomes more of a feasibility debate than anything else.

For instance, we can support gay marriages, but no one in a right mind would set the debate up in Saudi Arabia or something like that. Even if you are opposing gay marriages in the context of Saudi Arabia, you aren't opposing gay marriages in general, you might arguing against that idea simply because it is infeasible in a really conservative nation, and the public backlash against the ruling government in that nation.

The same goes to things like a piracy debate, on how a solution is going to work, with regards to how big or small the piracy problem is, how much resources should be spend on the threat and etc.


I hope that my nerco does not piss anyone off, as I find that creating a similar topic on a forum section that contain have 2 pages to be rather ridiculous.
Humans are such funny creatures. We are selfish about selflessness, yet we can love something so much that we can hate something.

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Re: [Discussion] Coliseum Policy Ideas

Post by Coyote » 2009-05-15 03:05pm

Well, there's not a whole hell of a lot of debate mileage in what you propose. Piracy is bad, Mmmmkay? Gay marriage is opposed by... no one here; at best you'll find people who are mostly indifferent. And we already know that Obama is a liberal only in the American sense of the term, which is still way to the right of the rest of the planet.

There's just... not much there to talk about.


Oh, and... if you have Coliseum debate topic ideas, bring them up. This was the Coliseum POLICY discussion thread, not the Debate Topic one.

Mischief Managed.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
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