Japan lost WW2 at Pearl Harbor

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Re: Japan lost WW2 at Pearl Harbor

Postby Simon_Jester » 2016-04-09 08:56pm

The Soviet invasion was definitely a major part of it, but I suspect the atomic bombs also played a role because they on a substantial level invalidated the basic assumption of "bleed them during an invasion" because one could easily think "they have just amplified the destructiveness of their bombers by a factor of a thousand or so."
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Re: Japan lost WW2 at Pearl Harbor

Postby Steve » 2016-04-09 11:46pm

I've heard it summarized that the nukes convinced the civilian leaders to give up and the invasion of Manchuria convinced the military leaders, as both events wrecked all of the Japanese assumptions of their position, particularly a view that they could bleed the US into giving up on unconditional surrender through a fanatic defense of the Home Islands. With just one or the other, surrender becomes less likely, if not impossible. And if neither happens, surrender is unlikely... and the bombing campaign likely begins the attacks on the transport network, so the surviving cities of Japan starve over the winter of '45-'46 while the US destroys what's left of their merchant fleet.
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Re: Japan lost WW2 at Pearl Harbor

Postby Baffalo » 2016-04-10 10:41pm

Something also to keep in mind was the lack of communications Japan suffered within its own hierarchy due to conflicts between the IJA and IJN. They weren't keen on working together because of funding disputes as far back as their war with Russia. This, coupled with an unwillingness to yield ground when the tide turned, meant Japanese commanders on the islands would be cut off far before the actual landing of American troops, left to starve with almost nothing in the way of supplies and unable to do anything but fight to the bitter end.

The defense strategy changed somewhat after Japanese commanders realized listening to reports and taking them seriously would help them change tactics to fend off the Americans. Compared to early victories, it explains why later campaigns, like Iwo Jima, would be so costly. Japanese commanders changed their tactics and started to build better fortifications based on what they'd heard was working. It was still far too little, but they could not retreat. Where would they go? How? The IJN in 1943-44 was outclassed, outnumbered, and outgunned.

The day Japan lost WWII was the day someone's ego said they could give the United States a bloody nose and expect to walk away without a fight.
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Re: Japan lost WW2 at Pearl Harbor

Postby Knife » 2016-04-15 12:38am

Japan started with top of the line 1941 equipment with poor industrial output in a very localized area. The US started out with obsolete equipment with a huge industrial output in a very large diverse area. When Japan slagged the Pacific fleet, all it did was seal it's doom by making the will of the US people to make their industrial output crank out current and then advanced craft to crush the Japanese with both numbers and tech.

While the zero was vastly superior to the Wild Cat, the Hell cat come on line a year and a half later and out classed the Zero, but more importantly the US rotated pilots out of the war zone to pass on needed info to the next class of pilots. The Japanese didn't and each loss of top pilots depleted their total knowledge base on combat fighting while the American's spread the knowledge and by the Great Marianas Turkey Shoot it was over for Japan. They had lost the tech edge and the experience edge. The F4-F wild cat and the F4U Corsairs, let alone Army aircraft had topped the Japanese aircraft in superiority.

Japan had both superior tech and personnel, but by wiping out the American existing fleet but not it's industry, all it did was make it so the American's could create a more advanced fleet with the experience of fighting the Japanese to spin around and kick their ass. Japan did not have the industry to keep up with it, nor the cultural experience to change fast enough to keep up with America when it came to training peeps.

The rapid increase in both type, class, and tech of US ships, planes, and subsystems; along with hoards of US personnel able to be trained quickly to fight against stagnant Japanese tech and tactics spelled their doom.
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Re: Japan lost WW2 at Pearl Harbor

Postby Isolder74 » 2016-04-17 09:47pm

Not only did the US have the edge with the Hellcat, Corsair, Avenger and Helldiver, they also upgraded and improved the old Wildcat to the FM-2 Wildcat that almost made the Wildcat as good as the Zero giving even low tier US units planes up to the capabilities of facing Zeros one on one. With the rotation of pilots through the training school gave those units with their green pilots better combat training then anything the Japanese could crank out. The Battle Off Samar shows that even those units had the determination to use their aircraft to the fullest of their potential.
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