"...which you dissected line by line in typical SDN debate fashion..."
Now since you objected to the style of my last reply, I'll change and see if you feel less assaulted.
Sorry about that, was in an unwell mood at the time.
RE: the west misunderstand Qi
Nope, again. Those same "masters" that you talked about going to the west and making stuff up, their ilk are doing the exact same thing in china. In multitudes and much more prevalent, in fact mostly they tone down their message in the west.
The two examples I gave you are extreme, yes, but they both happened in china and they were not some random flukes. Its like saying that there are no indian gurus in india its only in the west that they spew their nonsense. People are gullible everywhere, there is no reason for your claimed discrepancy.
Of course 'masters' will do stuff to gain students that's their whole income base. But to claim that that only happens in the west is naive.
Ah. Hurm. Could it just be a systemic thing used by shoddy overbearing practitioners to snag in gullible people everywhere, then? I could imagine these nonsense people trying to impress and convince saps in their homelands as well, and I could imagine local practitioners not prone to BSing just rolling their eyes at this.
I'll give you an unrelated example that might interest you since you mentioned arnis/escrima (never heard it called kali but I'm on the other side of the pond from the US), in my late teens I was training filippino stick fighting "modern arnis" and Ernesto Presas would come over for an event in Denmark. So of course our teacher talked up this "opportunity" about meeting a real master etc so we packed our group together and traveled there. I think that we were some 350 students mostly from scandinavia. In the middle of it suddenly Ernesto wanted each group to show stuff leading to the next advancement. So everyone went in front of him and did the next level stuff, then he proclaimed that everyone had been so skilled that they had earned their next level. Everyone, including me, got this nice paper which he put a bloodied print on etc. Then his assistants came to collect the money. Yupp, he had refused none so that he could take the upgrade fee himself. I remember doing some sketchy math in my head coming around to 150'000DKK ($19k back then), plus extra from the higher levels, the invite etc so probably some $50k at least. Talked to some germans and he had done the same to them. So scamming the local orgs from their fees and raking it in himself. My teachers where both really emberassed and apologized to us all.
A year later one of my teachers went over to train with them directly, when he came back he told us that they used the same scam all over the place. Turns out that that was SOP.
That just sucks. And I'm kind of embarrassed at that, since I'm a Filipino and my countrymen are apparently doing that kind of BS that would reflect poorly on us. I mentioned eskrima/arnis since I'm actually just getting into it (and hence why my perked curiosity prompted me to start this thread), I'm learning Nicklestick Balintawak and our Grand Master just came back from Russia and his son is in Europe and such, and there are foreigners training here from time to time. I hope that those Modern Arnis Ernesto Presas guys don't, yeah, end up sullying the rest of us, and I'd like to think that other arnis/eskrima masters going to teach in Europe and abroad aren't doing this kind of thing.
Anyway, I'm still a super-novice and am just in my first week, though I'm having a hell of a lot of fun with it.
Yes most chinese think they are nuts.
Chinese astrology + wushu. The shaolins mentioned it during their introduction lecture.
That's insane. Or, well, just weird. Does the lunar calendar actually dictate what forms they use in combat? What the hell.
Right, one controversy was vs gaijin, another that when he created his own "style" he said that quick and easy is best and removed almost all reference to the supernatural. Win Chun wise that was a huge rebellion.
Ah. Here I was just thinking that it was other masters getting pissed of him teaching foreigners, and not giving due credit to the other styles he got his techniques from.
@Removing stuff & similarity of techniques
Aikido looks almost like nothing else on a competitive level. I can guarantee you that it is not similar to pankration nor arnis. While I have not trained in pankration or any such wrestling I've trained in both aikido and modern arnis. While you might find similarities in individual techniques I tell you that the training is simply not the same. Its practitioners don't look the same and competitions is completely different. If I have not misunderstood something completely pankration wouldn't be concerned about the opponent at all. Especially when you look at the use of fists and knees in those amphoras.
@ methodical and sensible
Agreed on paralell evolutions depending on human physiology. Also agreed on the crosspolination, especially since both west and east traded with india for so long.
I didn't know that you were into aikido and arnis. That's pretty awesome.
Yeah, I was just referring to the individual techniques. Aside from that, I'm pretty much ignorant. What is pankration concerned about?
@derision for spiritualism
Sorry if that is how it comes across. Personally I find japanese and chinese martial arts a lot more fun because of their rituals etc. So I do not really feel a dersision vs eastern martial arts. What I dislike though is why asian martial arts must make so many stupid claims like lots of those surrounding Qi/Ji/Chi. Its like when you meet someone who wants to discuss Spetsnaz, you know their going to spew non-related bullshit eventually.
I'd like to think that the stupid claims just come from a lot of silly people, and that those who actually know their shit are pretty meek and humble as opposed to rambling about superpowers. Its just the loudest loudmouths get all the attention, I guess, and the real guys pretty much stay quiet. Which is unfortunate.
@samurai and firearms
Yes I know that their armies employed firearms??? What did that have to do with anything? Have you seen the pics from the Satsuma Rebellion? Have you seen the difference in attire? How 'modern' do you find the 'modern armor' Tosei-gusoku? They still used and trained with outdated equipment even after their opponents had updated theirs. This was directly because of traditionalism. Some of them where even opposed to give Tanegashimas to their peasant troops. Their fighting skills is not in question so I don't understand why you bring that up??
It wasn't simply politics that forced them to wear Tosei-gusoku and daisho to a firefight.
If your point is that you want me to express more grayscale, then accepted but I tried to be short.
Oh, I thought when you said "because they refused to change tools", you meant that they didn't use guns and were just sticking with swords while gun-armed guys mowed them down, ala The Last Samurai.
I was mistaken again, so consider the point retracted.
@religious knights as underexposed.
You do see them but you probably don't recognize their origin. Any RPG that have paladins etc are derived from them. Also lots and lots and lots of western movies showcase them. But how they trained etc is mostly lost, there are no manuscripts etc. So just like with roman, frankish, norse, etc, we mostly have it from secondary sources, ie scholars witnesses instead of masters teaching their craft. But some of those sources are really good, so we have had to upgrade our thinking about how they trained and fought several times.
I mean, yes, we see all the knights and paladins and such, but we don't really see
all their methods or techniques, there's no emphasis in that, all we see them is stabbing people in the face and having adventures. Whereas in Asian martial arts movies, we see an emphasis in the techniques and all those styles and dragon crane judo stances and so on. Which is where the whole cliche of "Western combat is all rah sword swinging, whereas Asian combat is all sophisticated with all these so-and-so-techniques" comes from, because as you said a lot of stuff was lost or forgotten, and just not practiced any more, whereas in Asia you've still got moldy old guys practicing centuries-old martial arts.