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Well, the crusades also apply to every propagandist fantasy. Bad guys from the west coming into ancestral muslim lands to take their land, resources, faith and women.

Simon_Jester wrote:Of course, the Mongols proceeded to hit them much harder; I've heard it argued that it was the trauma of the Mongols that really did more to alter the course and character of Islamic civilization. But rhetorically there's no meaningful sense in which one can take revenge for the actions of Ghengis Khan, while the distant descendants of the Crusaders are still around and conspicuously powerful...

It's been almost 800 years since the Mongols did their dirty work. The "crusaders" (i.e. European powers and their former colonies) are robbing, raping, torturing and killing Muslims by the bushel right now.

Guardsman Bass wrote:

Fingolfin_Nolder wrote:I think the real trouble is that Muslim lands were occupied for a few decades in recent memory by the West, whereas the Mongols have largely been forgotten.

Put me in that camp as well. Most of the "Mongols" and "Crusaders" rhetoric wouldn't really be at work if it wasn't for the more recent trauma of imperialism and the crappy politics and outside intervention of the past century or so. It's just another thing to layer on top of that stuff, to give the conflict a feeling of greater depth.

In other words, fatuous neocons aren't the only ones hawking this "clash of civilizations" horseshit.

Simon_Jester wrote:Of course, the Mongols proceeded to hit them much harder; I've heard it argued that it was the trauma of the Mongols that really did more to alter the course and character of Islamic civilization. But rhetorically there's no meaningful sense in which one can take revenge for the actions of Ghengis Khan, while the distant descendants of the Crusaders are still around and conspicuously powerful...

I remember years and years back I was telling an English guy I was sort of friends with about the Mongols sacking Baghdad and generally doing a number on Islamic civilization. And it turned out he was kind of a racist shithead (I believe he he has since improved) and started going on about how it served them right and immigrants and crap.

So I said, "Well shit man, why do you think they're so fucked up now?"

And he went "...Woah" and you could just hear the wheels turning in his brain. It was memorable.