Ancient Romans in South America?

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SpaceMarine93
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Ancient Romans in South America?

Post by SpaceMarine93 »

I had been reading the article 5 Baffling Discoveries That Prove History Books Are Wrong"
Cracked.com, and one section elaborates a mysterious and incredible discovery of Roman relics in South America:

http://www.cracked.com/article_19769_5- ... z1shEYGXaU
In 1933, an archaeologist was digging around a burial ground about 40 miles away from Mexico City when he discovered this tiny little figure [A Roman statue head] among the other offerings. And we should mention that this wasn't just a typical out-in-the-open burial dumping ground. The spot he was digging was previously under not one, but two undisturbed cement floors that were untouched since the 1500s. So it's not like a jokester could have purchased it at the nearest Roman-centered novelty store and dumped it in a cemetery to be hilarious.

And yes, we're aware that Columbus touched ground a few years before that, but white guys didn't make it to Mexico until 1519, and even then, it's unlikely they would have been carrying around Roman artifacts. And yes, they know it was Roman -- the beehive bouffant (or hat) and facial features match Roman artifacts of the second century.

So how did it get there? No one knows.
The article further mentions a possible origin of the Roman statue in the burial ground with a discovery in 1982 by another archaeologist, Robert Marx, in the harbor of Rio de Janeiro: First, a load of Third Century Roman vases, and shockingly when he dug further, Two Roman-style ships, rotting at the bottom of the Brazilian coast..

Why is this not well known?

Well:

http://www.nytimes.com/1985/06/25/scien ... razil.html
UNDERWATER EXPLORING IS BANNED IN BRAZIL
By MARLISE SIMONS
Published: June 25, 1985
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RIO DE JANEIRO— A DISPUTE between the Brazilian Navy and an American marine archeologist has led Brazil to bar the diver from entering the country and to place a ban on all underwater exploration.

The dispute involves Robert Marx, a Florida author and treasure hunter, who asserts that the Brazilian Navy dumped a thick layer of silt on the remains of a Roman vessel that he discovered inside Rio de Janeiro's bay.

The reason he gave for the Navy's action was that proof of a Roman presence would require Brazil to rewrite its recorded history, which has the Portuguese navigator Pedro Alvares Cabral discovering the country in 1500.

The Brazilian Navy has denied that it covered up the site and has in turn charged Mr. Marx with ''contraband'' of objects recovered from other wrecks in this country. Because of this, Navy officials said, the Government had issued an order ''to prohibit him from entering Brazil.''

To substantiate these charges, the Brazilian officials showed a catalogue of an auction held in Amsterdam in 1983 in which, they said, gold coins, instruments and artifacts removed from shipwrecks in Brazil were offered for sale on behalf of Mr. Marx and his associates. The officials said many of these objects had not been reported on the divers' inventory, contrary to an agreement with Mr. Marx.

'Don't Bother Me'

Several attempts to give Mr. Marx the opportunity to respond to these charges were unsuccessful. One phone call ended abruptly when Mr Marx said, ''Don't bother me,'' and then hung up.

All other permits for underwater exploration and digging, a prolific field in Brazil, have been canceled as a result of the Marx controversy and none will be issued until Congress passes new legislation, Navy officials said. Although the decision was taken a year ago, it was not publicized and only became known as a result of new inquiries into the Marx case.

The ban has affected a number of projects in Brazil's harbors and along its 4,600-mile coastline. Mainly foreign diving teams have discovered a panoply of gold and silver objects, but most of the sites, though known, remain unexplored.

In Guanabara Bay of Rio de Janeiro, more than 100 English, French and Portuguese shipwrecks lie unexplored like the pages of an unread, underwater history book.

But few spots seem to have aroused as much interest and intrigue here as the remains of a ship that struck a reef some 15 miles inside Rio de Janeiro's bay.

The story goes back to 1976 when lobster divers first found potsherds studded with barnacles just off Governor's Island in the bay. Then a Brazilian diver brought up two complete jars with twin handles, tapering at the bottom, the kind that ancient Mediterranean peoples widely used for storage and are known as amphoras. Brazilian experts disagree over the age of the jars, which have been turned over to the Navy and stored them in a warehouse.

Mr. Marx, who has long sought to prove that other sailors reached the Americas well before Columbus, obtained permission to explore the site in late 1982. Diving at a depth of about 90 feet, he found the parts of perhaps 200 broken amphoras and several complete ones, he said in an earlier telephone interview.

According to Elizabeth Will, a professor of classics and specialist in ancient Roman amphoras at the University of Massachusetts at Amherst, the jars are very similar to the ones produced at Kouass, a Roman Empire colony that was a center for amphora-making on the Atlantic coast of Morocco.

Reached by telephone, Professor Will said of the fragments she had studied: ''They look to be ancient and because of the profile, the thin-walled fabric and the shape of the rims I suggested they belong to the third century A.D.''

After Mr. Marx and Dr. Harold Edgerton of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology had explored the site with acoustical echoes and long metal rods, Mr. Marx said he became convinced that, below the potsherds, they had found the remains of a wooden wreck. A Roman vessel, he argued, had been blown off its course and reached Brazil.

Mr. Marx's expeditions received wide press coverage in Brazil, with some reports asserting that he was perpetrating a hoax and was defaming the name of the Portuguese discoverers of Brazil. Adding to the stir, a wealthy businessman, Americo Santarelli, claimed the amphoras as his property. He said he once had taken such a liking to some ancient Sicilian amphoras that he ordered a potter in Portugal to make exact replicas. To ''age'' the jars, he said, he dropped 16 of them in Guanabara Bay in 1961, but collected only four.

In January 1983, when Mr. Marx returned to Brazil to start salvaging the wooden wreck, he said, the tides had turned. ''The Navy people I worked with told me the Navy had covered up the site to keep it from being plundered,'' he said. ''They also said this thing is causing so much controversy, it's better if you leave.''

Mr. Marx said he nonetheless went diving and found that the spot where objects had been close to the mud surface was now covered by a large mound. He added that other Government officials then told him: ''Brazilians don't care about the past. And they don't want to replace Cabral as the discoverer.''

At the Captaincy of the Port, a division of the Navy, officials said there was no record of the site being covered over. They added, however, that ''any operation in the bay'' could only have been carried out with the knowledge and permission of their office. Other Navy officials also said there had been no ''cover-up.''
Needless to say, many people are not pleased. I am certainly frothing with rage at this. :banghead:

But the fact remains - there are evidence to suggest that the Romans MIGHT had been to the South Americas before, they MIGHT had been there deliberately or by accident, they MIGHT had beaten Columbus, Cabral or even the Chinese and the Vikings to the New World. We can't tell for sure since the evidence are either not well-known or deliberately covered up, but they still exist; if you want them found, look no further than the biggest of them, still buried under the sands somewhere in Rio De Jainero's bay, with potential of becoming one of the History's biggest Pandora's Jar.

One thing is certain - if confirmed, our understanding of the past of both the Mediterranean and the New World as we know it will be thrown upside and down.
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Re: Ancient Romans in South America?

Post by Frank Hipper »

The presence of Roman amphorae is best explained by ballasting ships with material from ancient trash middens, a common and documented practice. No one suspects prehistoric britons having made landfall in Hawaii due to the presence there of paleolithic stone tools originating from the south of England, after all.

The figurine head is highly problematic and is commonly attributed to the student Hugo Moedano, who worked on the original dig, pulling a prank.

To be honest, finding a figurine head that pre-dates the site where it was supposedly found by more than 1100 years begs so many questions by itself that pre-Colombian contact gets lost in the background noise.
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Re: Ancient Romans in South America?

Post by Skgoa »

The true answer: It's cracked.com, stop believing their bullshit. :lol:
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Re: Ancient Romans in South America?

Post by Johonebesus »

A good rule of thumb is not to take anything on Cracked.com seriously. They evidently don't employ crack researchers.
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Re: Ancient Romans in South America?

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

SM93, you always seem to be frothing with rage at something. Is that all you do with your life?

This lot is probably all bollocks anyway.
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Re: Ancient Romans in South America?

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A Roman vessel in south america? Not buying that one, if only for the simple reason Roman ships did not take on supplies for more than a few weeks. The story of the Brazilian Navy dumping stuff on it is also too bad to be believed. You better believe the Brazilians would like to get everything out of that story, if only just to get to tourism.

if there was a vessel there, it can only have arrived there after the people onboard would all have been dead and the vessel would be drifting. Still, I highly doubt anything of the sort happened.
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Re: Ancient Romans in South America?

Post by atg »

Aren't there claims that the Carthaginians found North America too? I'd imagine that'd would fall into a similar category as Romans finding brazil.
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Re: Ancient Romans in South America?

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atg wrote:Aren't there claims that the Carthaginians found North America too? I'd imagine that'd would fall into a similar category as Romans finding brazil.
Yeah, there are. Nonsense based on misreading of greek sources.
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Re: Ancient Romans in South America?

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Thanas wrote:A Roman vessel in south america? Not buying that one, if only for the simple reason Roman ships did not take on supplies for more than a few weeks. The story of the Brazilian Navy dumping stuff on it is also too bad to be believed. You better believe the Brazilians would like to get everything out of that story, if only just to get to tourism.

if there was a vessel there, it can only have arrived there after the people onboard would all have been dead and the vessel would be drifting. Still, I highly doubt anything of the sort happened.
Actually you can make the voyage from the Azores or Canary islands to northern Brazil in as little as eighteen days at six knots when the wind is favorable. You also risk getting stuck in the doldrums or running into hurricanes of course which would be a good deterrent to anyone following. This is likely a good part of the reason why Columbus made a much longer trip due west. So it is entirely possible that live Romans could have been blown across alive, and then sailed down the Brazilian coastline as explorers. The odds of returning to tell the tale would be extremely thin as a ship would need to go much further west, then north to find a good wind to return with, making a much longer and difficult return voyage when lack of supplies would be fatal.

The story is pretty self discrediting with a claim it was actively hidden, and ballast is certainly plausible when the Romans heaped up mountains of these things all over the Mediterranean, but I wouldn't rule out a one way Roman trip. Personally I just don't find it very important because of course, it led to nothing.
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Re: Ancient Romans in South America?

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Sea Skimmer wrote:Actually you can make the voyage from the Azores or Canary islands to northern Brazil in as little as eighteen days at six knots when the wind is favorable.
Yes. But the Romans hardly ever went there. They traded with the Canary Islands but did not establish a permanent presence there. So getting there would be considered a very risky trip.
This is likely a good part of the reason why Columbus made a much longer trip due west. So it is entirely possible that live Romans could have been blown across alive, and then sailed down the Brazilian coastline as explorers.
I doubt that. For once, Roman vessels were constructed with very low seaboards as the mediterranean is not getting such huge waves. Another reason is that Roman vessels already had trouble navigating the English channel or up to Ireland. I don't think a Roman ship could have survived such a trip.

So possible, just extremely unlikely and more of a miracle than anything.
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Re: Ancient Romans in South America?

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The English Channel and Ireland are exposed to the worst non tropical Atlantic storms, enhanced by the gulf stream so that actually does indicate some ability to cope with Atlantic conditions. All the prevailing winds constantly want to throw you onto the rocks and the Channel is a funnel for bad weather. People have crossed the Atlantic in rowboats, several times, and all kinds of small sailing craft, its totally possible as long as they don't run into a major storm. Unlikely yes, a miracle no, not for a one way trip. Low freeboard is never good, but its not certain doom as long as you have good overall stability and a short rolling period.
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Re: Ancient Romans in South America?

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Sea Skimmer wrote:The English Channel and Ireland are exposed to the worst non tropical Atlantic storms, enhanced by the gulf stream so that actually does indicate some ability to cope with Atlantic conditions. All the prevailing winds constantly want to throw you onto the rocks and the Channel is a funnel for bad weather. People have crossed the Atlantic in rowboats, several times, and all kinds of small sailing craft, its totally possible as long as they don't run into a major storm. Unlikely yes, a miracle no, not for a one way trip. Low freeboard is never good, but its not certain doom as long as you have good overall stability and a short rolling period.
Good overall stability? The Roman cargo ships are low, ill-maneuverable ships that lack rudders. I would be willing to give a better estimate for the muriophorio type due to sheer size, but these are not really utilized in the atlantic by the Romans. So we would be talking here about small coastal vessels. I very much doubt the crew survived, especially not considering the feats you mentioned were done using specialized craft.
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Re: Ancient Romans in South America?

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Basic stability has nothing directly to do with freeboard or maneuverability. Its a matter of weight distribution and Roman ships as far as I can tell didn't have very much built up above the main deck, while a hold full of clay jugs is good ballast. As for specialist craft, sure they were specialist, mostly, but mostly that had to do with sleeping and living arrangements normally lacking in such tiny vessels. Take a look at the row boat below for example, it has no exotic keel and even the freeboard at bow and stern is only a few feet.
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Re: Ancient Romans in South America?

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Sea Skimmer wrote:Basic stability has nothing directly to do with freeboard or maneuverability. Its a matter of weight distribution and Roman ships as far as I can tell didn't have very much built up above the main deck, while a hold full of clay jugs is good ballast.
some carried cargo on deck, I don't specifically know whether this practice was discontinued on extra-mediterranean voyages. However, clay jugs is by no means the standard cargo for Roman ships. It might just as well have carried slaves, grain, metals, stone.....given that a ship blown that way off course most likely would travel the east course of spain (and even then it gets a bit hard to understand how ships that always stayed near shore could suddenly be blown out that much.....I suppose large storms are a possibility though), I think Iron and zink are more likely type of cargos.

In fact, given how much was moved on rivers, I can't even say with certainty there were that many Roman ships on the atlantic at all.
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Re: Ancient Romans in South America?

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Even if they had cargo on deck, they'd surely throw it overboard if they were afraid of sinking. I was thinking more in terms of deckhouses, masts and rigging that would be be unable to discard. Iron and zinc would be even better for ballast, since for a given total weight they'd be even lower in the hold so that only helps the stability situation. A trip to the canaries would provide a good chance of being blown out to sea, and even a short sea voyage across from Morocco to Spain could have some risk, all the more so if the ship was damaged. One would assume traffic was limited, otherwise you'd think the Romans would have ended up going far south down the African coast.. its never been very clear why Europeans didn't do this much earlier... unless in fact they did and we just lack records.

I rate the Romans in South America idea low, but its certainly possible. At least one wooden Japanese fishing boat was blown all the way across the northern pacific back in the early 20th century which is a much more demanding trip in every respect. The steel rustbucket that recently make the trip only to be sunk by the USCG was of course, a lot less impressive... but it still shows that the ocean's really aren't that big. The main issue with this story is the conspiracy angle, which really throws it all into question, but supposedly the fragments recovered really do exist. I have too much work to do this weekend to find out of that's really true.
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Re: Ancient Romans in South America?

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One thing is certain - if confirmed, our understanding of the past of both the Mediterranean and the New World as we know it will be thrown upside and down.
Lets pretend that it was confirmed, would it change our understanding of the meditation and new world? If these vessels were somehow manned by Romans across the oceans it would have to be very few, otherwise their would be more evidence. Also it would have to been one way, as otherwise they would have been documented in Roman histories. So at a best a small number of roman arrived in the New World and either died or were absorbed by existing populations. This would be interesting but not a major paradigm shift.
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Re: Ancient Romans in South America?

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My impression is that until you get to the High Middle Ages, it was a question of the focus of commerce. Navigational techniques were limited; sailing out of sight of land was certainly possible but not safe, except in the Mediterranean where you could just keep going in a straight line for a week or so and you'd be bound to find land somewhere.

Even if there's nothing stopping a Roman ship from sailing south along the coast of Africa, there really wouldn't be much reason to try- there's nothing there that isn't available elsewhere; things like slaves and ivory could be traded for in places a lot closer to what the Romans would call the civilized world. So if it happens it'll be occasional one-off expeditions that simply aren't going to show up in the records unless we get lucky.

The Portuguese and other European powers of the High Middle Ages had a different set of incentives. They were actively trying to break the Muslim world's hold on trade routes to the Orient, so they had a reason to sail a long way looking for a way 'around' Africa even if they didn't find anything impressive on the way south. And they had more advanced navigation and cartography to work with, so the voyages were safer, and it was easier for them to build on what a previous voyage had learned.

Despite all that, a Roman ship making it to South America might be within the realm of possibility (if Polynesians could make long ocean voyages in rafts and canoes, lucky Romans could probably do it in a merchant ship). But if so... as Sea Skimmer says, so what? I don't understand why SM93 thinks this is such a huge deal; at most it's a footnote in a history book with no consequences that really affected anyone a few decades later. We know damn well the Romans weren't in constant contact with the New World, even if some Romans somehow made it there.

Given the longevity and scale of Rome, Romans probably wound up in a lot of places that we don't normally think to expect them- but we'd never know either way, because the historical record from the period is far too spotty to give us any clue about the fates of specific individuals. If, say, a Roman slave wound up traded all the way up the Silk Road to China... would we know? Would we care? It'd be an interesting story if there were any way to find out about it, but it's not like it changed the course of history.
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Re: Ancient Romans in South America?

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Sea Skimmer wrote:Even if they had cargo on deck, they'd surely throw it overboard if they were afraid of sinking. I was thinking more in terms of deckhouses, masts and rigging that would be be unable to discard. Iron and zinc would be even better for ballast, since for a given total weight they'd be even lower in the hold so that only helps the stability situation. A trip to the canaries would provide a good chance of being blown out to sea, and even a short sea voyage across from Morocco to Spain could have some risk, all the more so if the ship was damaged. One would assume traffic was limited, otherwise you'd think the Romans would have ended up going far south down the African coast.. its never been very clear why Europeans didn't do this much earlier... unless in fact they did and we just lack records.
AFAIK the Romans never had a standing trade with the Canary Islands. And sea routes did not go all the way to marocco. The standard route was to pass through Gibraltar to the North African ports.

As far as going down the African coast, there was no need for that. Remember that this is a time when the Saharah was much more fertile and north Africa had extensive irrigation systems. The tribes in that area who conducted the trade with the south were either allies or enemies of Rome, in either case there was no real incentive to go down there.
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Re: Ancient Romans in South America?

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Simon_Jester wrote:Given the longevity and scale of Rome, Romans probably wound up in a lot of places that we don't normally think to expect them- but we'd never know either way, because the historical record from the period is far too spotty to give us any clue about the fates of specific individuals. If, say, a Roman slave wound up traded all the way up the Silk Road to China... would we know? Would we care? It'd be an interesting story if there were any way to find out about it, but it's not like it changed the course of history.
We do know that Romans settled all the way to Ceylon (a Roman christian church has been found there apparently) and there are some sources that suggest they traded all the way to Singapore.

EDIT: Trade routes seem to have either been Egypt - Horn - India or the classic silk road with ships being started in the Arabic world/allied towns there. Trade via Egypt of course offered the state advantages as it would be almost under direct Roman control.
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Re: Ancient Romans in South America?

Post by Simon_Jester »

Right, but- put it this way, if I ever found evidence that an individual Roman had made his way to ancient Japan I would not be in the slightest surprised. A shipload would surprise me, but an individual winding up there for whatever reason? Not at all.

Indeed, I would be surprised if there weren't cases like that: in a mostly civilized world populated by millions of people, you're going to get a certain amount of Brownian motion, travel and trade and wanderers. There's not going to be much if any record of it afterwards, but that's a function of how long ago all this happened, not of whether it was possible.

Which is why learning about pre-Columbian visits to the Americas, or Roman trade with the Far East, or things along those lines never surprises me very much, the way it surprises SM93.
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Zinegata
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Re: Ancient Romans in South America?

Post by Zinegata »

Thanas wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:Given the longevity and scale of Rome, Romans probably wound up in a lot of places that we don't normally think to expect them- but we'd never know either way, because the historical record from the period is far too spotty to give us any clue about the fates of specific individuals. If, say, a Roman slave wound up traded all the way up the Silk Road to China... would we know? Would we care? It'd be an interesting story if there were any way to find out about it, but it's not like it changed the course of history.
We do know that Romans settled all the way to Ceylon (a Roman christian church has been found there apparently) and there are some sources that suggest they traded all the way to Singapore.

EDIT: Trade routes seem to have either been Egypt - Horn - India or the classic silk road with ships being started in the Arabic world/allied towns there. Trade via Egypt of course offered the state advantages as it would be almost under direct Roman control.
Wasn't there also some supposed survivors of Crassus' legion that reached China and setup a city? Or was this another hoax?
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Re: Ancient Romans in South America?

Post by Irbis »

If 2 amphorae are proof of important archaeological discovery...

Would that make Vladimir Putin new Indiana Jones, SM93? :P
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Re: Ancient Romans in South America?

Post by DudeGuyMan »

Europe was building boats/ships of one sort or another for what, a couple thousand years before officially discovering the Americas? And in all that time, how many were blown out to sea? Shit like this probably happened all the time, relatively speaking.

If once or twice a century, or every few centuries, some castaway happened to "miraculously" survive the crossing and ended up somewhere in the New World, who would ever know?
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The Duchess of Zeon
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Re: Ancient Romans in South America?

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Some information on the story Skimmer was referencing. I've seen a model of the ship the Japanese survived on and it was not particularly substantial. There are also other stories from the late 18th and early 19th century, I think as many as three Japanese ships with living sailors were blown across the North Pacific, which is almost an order of magnitude more distance than this route, with survivors--three ships in 65 years. I am reasonably content with the idea that limited numbers of inhabitants of Eurasafrica came to the Americans as castaways over the years, simply because we have documented evidence of it happening. There's nothing like the Japan Current to send them flying straight into the Brazilian coast, however, so it is much less likely than where there's virtually an express ocean people-mover hauling wrecked ships from Japan to the Pacific Northwest. Regardless it's almost indubitable that over two thousand years pre-contact, at least one man clinging to a dismasted ship rigged the fragment of a sail to fill with rain water, chewed on leather shoes when the food ran out, and starving but alive reached the Brazilian coast.

This seems like it isn't really relevant, though, because what these people who claim this evidence want is some kind of large-scale contact, and we know that didn't happen. Flotsam and jetsam collection with occasionally a living man is quite the different thing than trade!
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Re: Ancient Romans in South America?

Post by Sarevok »

Assuming Romans did make to South America.

Was there enough people there for survivors of a shipwreck to make contact? I mean did not the ancient American native civilizations only flourished few centuries after heydey of Rome?
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