Darth Wong's Arab Nation Bashing

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I should note that I think there will be a revolution in Iran which will bring a secular Republic to power within a year of the U.S. invasion of Iraq. That's why the invasion of Iraq is a good thing in terms of fighting terrorism regardless of our actual intent in invading Iraq (which can still be defended on its own grounds).

The regime of the Ayatollahs is hanging by a thread; especially with the recent condemnations of several reformers. But the street crowd wants to go even further than those reformers. They're just a focal point, but one that could easily topple the Ayatollahs in an instant, who have already been forced to bring in Arab mercenaries to augment their security forces, who have been unwilling to put down several seriously riots (There have been a few times in which I've wondered if events related to soccer games might be near to bringing down the Islamic Republic of Iran).

Iran has a huge population of youth - the majority of their populace - most of whom were not alive for the Islamic Revolution and even more of whom don't remember it. Those people just know the current regime as being oppressive and want to do something about it.

Once we have shown them the example of carrying through with our word, and gaining the Iraqis the freedom they deserve, and the long border between Iraq and Iran is not manned by the Iraqi army of feared memory to the Iranian people, but rather by an American force within Iraq, rebuilding that country to democracy: And at the point where we might provide them with covert aide, not direct, but rather the support so that they may take their own action, then I think Iran shall fall from those internal causes very swiftly, and the result will be secularism there.

[Coyote]

Also, I believe Libya to be fairly secular. I understand that Moammar Khadafy has been trying to shape up his act and cleanse him image lately, I hear he even withdrew from the Arab League, calling them corrupt, has offerd to host peace negotiations for Israel and the Pals, and a rumor has it that he very discreetly asked the Italians about how to join the EU... (that sounds doubtful, though).

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Also, I believe Libya to be fairly secular. I understand that Moammar Khadafy has been trying to shape up his act and cleanse him image lately, I hear he even withdrew from the Arab League, calling them corrupt, has offerd to host peace negotiations for Israel and the Pals, and a rumor has it that he very discreetly asked the Italians about how to join the EU... (that sounds doubtful, though).

With Qaddafi nothing is impossible.

Libya is sort-of secular; Qaddafi replaced the Islamic lunar calendar with a solar calendar he designed himself. But he has trouble with Islamist guerillas from tribal groups not loyal to him, like the Algerians except possibly worse, at least in the western part of the country.

[Tsyroc]

I've been to Turkey. I heard bad things about the rural areas, but Istanbul was great.

Me too. I liked Istanbul a lot. Ishmir was okay.

I hightly recomend sailing into Istanbul. Going by the Dardanels and up to the Bosphorous Strait is very cool.

[kheegster]

Not all Islamic countries are absolute crap, I vote like Jordan because they:
1. Have compotent leadership.
2. Actually give some semblance of a damn about their citezens.
3. Send their leaders abroad to be educated.
4. Gave up the death to the nonmuslims bit long ago.

...and their queen is a hotty as well!

KG

[Tsyroc]

Not all Islamic countries are absolute crap, I vote like Jordan because they:
1. Have compotent leadership.
2. Actually give some semblance of a damn about their citezens.
3. Send their leaders abroad to be educated.
4. Gave up the death to the nonmuslims bit long ago.

...and their queen is a hotty as well!

KG

Is that their current queen or the previous one queen Noor (sp?)? I haven't seen their current queen but Noor is definately good looking.

[Wicked Pilot]

I know that some nations like Egypt, Quatar, Dubai, UAE, Turkey, etc are much more secular and open than the others. Unfortunately, there are only nine slots available on the poll, so I had to choose the nations that make the headlines more often.

[C.S.Strowbridge]

I choose Iran cause I believe they are at a crossroads. They still use Islamic laws, but they also have student protests and they are not killing the protesters.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

and they are not killing the protesters.

Protestors have been regularly killed during the suppression of the demonstrations; it just doesn't make the headlines over here. Iran is quite close to a secular government, I think - But only with another revolution.

[Enlightenment]

Protestors have been regularly killed during the suppression of the demonstrations; it just doesn't make the headlines over here.

AFIAK it's just a matter of a dozen dead here and a dozen there--about what would be expected in riot supression activities in uncivilized countries anyway--rather than deliberate massacres along the lines of what has happened in places like China.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

AFIAK it's just a matter of a dozen dead here and a dozen there--about what would be expected in riot supression activities in uncivilized countries anyway--rather than deliberate massacres along the lines of what has happened in places like China.

Well, yeah. If you want to be really cynical and depressed about the world, I can cite from one statistician's website as he commented on the San Francisco earthquake of the (last) century:

"Why was this such a big deal, anyway!? Bus plunges and soccer riots in any self-respecting third world country kill more people than this in a day!"

[Enlightenment]

Once we have shown them the example of carrying through with our word, and gaining the Iraqis the freedom they deserve, and the long border between Iraq and Iran is not manned by the Iraqi army of feared memory to the Iranian people, but rather by an American force within Iraq, rebuilding that country to democracy:

Just because the Iranians are getting a little tired of being ruled by fundamentalist nutcases doesn't mean that they actively like the US. Put a sizable US occupation force in Iraq and the Iranians will start to worry if they--as members of the 'Axis of Evil'--are going to be the Americans' next target.

Furthermore, the US has an extremely spotty reputation for both rebuilding post-conquest and bringing democracy to occupied states. If statistics are anything to go by, US troops in Iraq won't be bringing western civilization to the Iraqis but rather supporting a puppet government for the greater glory of Shrubby's oil friends and the Bush family finances. In this context the Iranians have every right to be suspicious of US motives and certainly won't be looking for American 'help.'

[Falcon]

I like Iran in the way that I think they have the most potential right now to become a free nation. Their younger generatons make up a large amount of their total population, and these young people seem to desire freedom.

[Falcon]

Once we have shown them the example of carrying through with our word, and gaining the Iraqis the freedom they deserve, and the long border between Iraq and Iran is not manned by the Iraqi army of feared memory to the Iranian people, but rather by an American force within Iraq, rebuilding that country to democracy:

Just because the Iranians are getting a little tired of being ruled by fundamentalist nutcases doesn't mean that they actively like the US. Put a sizable US occupation force in Iraq and the Iranians will start to worry if they--as members of the 'Axis of Evil'--are going to be the Americans' next target.

Furthermore, the US has an extremely spotty reputation for both rebuilding post-conquest and bringing democracy to occupied states. If statistics are anything to go by, US troops in Iraq won't be bringing western civilization to the Iraqis but rather supporting a puppet government for the greater glory of Shrubby's oil friends and the Bush family finances. In this context the Iranians have every right to be suspicious of US motives and certainly won't be looking for American 'help.'

Doesn't America get any credit for Japan\Germany? Granted these last few operations have been shoddy, but they've been more 'internatonal' operations instead of 'American' operations. I think if we bring freedom and greater wealth to Iraq, instead of royal palaces, that the people will come around on their own.

[ArmorPierce]

Actually Iraq is very secular when it comes to middle eastern nations. I believe that the women are actually allowed to vote. Still, I wouldn't ever live there.

To be fair, the ballot cards in Iraq are something like this:

Vote for Saddam
Don't vote for Saddam (you'll be shot upon exiting the poll if you choose this option)

So, really, the only reason Iraq allows women to vote is to maintain an illusion of democracy. If you're going to force people to vote for you, you might as well force everyone to vote for you, so you can appear as though everyone has the right to vote in your nation.

I'd support liberating Iraq, but the media there is so tightly controlled that everyone supports Hussein, and they don't want to be liberated.

I'm not defending Iraq, just saying that it is less fundementalist and more just crazy expansionists that has less to do with religion. What I mean is that religion isn't Saddam Hussein's driving force to want to expand and keep power.

BTW, I wasn't the one who voted Iraq so don't any of you get any ideas.

and oh yeah, you're right the current (I think) queen of Jordan ain't that bad lookin.

[Enlightenment]

Successful US uplifts:

Japan
Germany

Olgiarchies, kleptocracies, dictatorships, military governments, puppet governments and repressive regimes installed by the US:

Haiti
Chile
Panama
Guatemala
Ecuador
Dominican Republic
Brazil
Uruguay
Granada
Syria (1949)
Iran (1953)
Indonesia (1965)


US-led clusterfucks:

Afghanistan.
Somalia.


The statistics speak for themselves. In the past century, US intervention has brought death squads far more often than it has brought democracy.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Successful US uplifts:

Japan
Germany
Austria
Italy
South Korea
Taiwan
Thailand
Spain

It all depends on how you define one. I notice how in most of the countries below you included ones with a minimal amount of covert aide in overthrowing a regime, or a situation where there might have been a wink in the direction of a coup, where in this column you only included those countries that had been occupied and rebuilt by the USA, instead of those that received US aide over a sustained period of time, and were American allies, and today are functional democracies (And still receive that aide or are allies in some form).

(I should also note that Austria and Italy were occupied by the USA.)

Olgiarchies, kleptocracies, dictatorships, military governments, puppet governments and repressive regimes installed by the US:

Haiti
Panama
Guatemala
Ecuador
Dominican Republic
Uruguay
Granada
Syria (1949)
Iran (1953)
Indonesia (1965)

In the case of Brazil and Chile that's incorrect; and I'd need to check on Uruguay and Ecuador to see about the extent of American involvement and if the claim is really sustainable

US-led clusterfucks:

Afghanistan.
Somalia.

Somalia was that way before we arrived, and we pulled out because Billy Klintoon didn't have the guts to finish the job; there's no telling how it might have ended with sustained intervention. Though seriously Somalia is not and never has been a country to speak of, and I doubt there's much hope for the place as a unified nation.

In Afghanistan, we're fixing our prior problems currently. There is success, hope, and optimism there now, with foreign aide coming in, a building boom in the capital, and a general expansion of order and prosperity.

The statistics speak for themselves. In the past century, US intervention has brought death squads far more often than it has brought democracy.

The statistics speak for themselves in a rather more ambiguous fashion than that, which is what we can expect from the fighting of a long and uncertain war against Communism.