Medicine and Religion-Right or Wrong?

[haas mark]

Okay, we've all heard of the vapid fundies that have stated that prayer will defeat medicine and technology with no help. However, we also know that most if these people are those that say that God has created evrything, and that humans have free will. Not to mention that although humans have free will, everything that the humans have created was really created by God and his will. So this leads to a dilemma. Either God created medicine and technology for our use, he gave us free will for the purpose of creating medicine and technology, or he did not create anything at all.

So is this a viable arguement, or am I just bullshitting myself?

(Gotta love random thoughts, ne?)

[Shinova]

Okay, we've all heard of the vapid fundies that have stated that prayer will defeat medicine and technology with no help. However, we also know that most if these people are those that say that God has created evrything, and that humans have free will. Not to mention that although humans have free will, everything that the humans have created was really created by God and his will. So this leads to a dilemma. Either God created medicine and technology for our use, he gave us free will for the purpose of creating medicine and technology, or he did not create anything at all.

So is this a viable arguement, or am I just bullshitting myself?

(Gotta love random thoughts, ne?)

I say metaphysical philosophy has caught you by the balls


On a more serious note, one could probably say that since god created humans with free will, credit for medicine ultimately goes to God because he allowed for the existence of the free will that gave rise to medicine.

[haas mark]

Okay, we've all heard of the vapid fundies that have stated that prayer will defeat medicine and technology with no help. However, we also know that most if these people are those that say that God has created evrything, and that humans have free will. Not to mention that although humans have free will, everything that the humans have created was really created by God and his will. So this leads to a dilemma. Either God created medicine and technology for our use, he gave us free will for the purpose of creating medicine and technology, or he did not create anything at all.

So is this a viable arguement, or am I just bullshitting myself?

(Gotta love random thoughts, ne?)

I say metaphysical philosophy has caught you by the balls


On a more serious note, one could probably say that since god created humans with free will, credit for medicine ultimately goes to God because he allowed for the existence of the free will that gave rise to medicine.

Exactly my point. What I was trying to say was that these fundies say that medicine is a bad thing. However, if God created it, it can't be bad. See where I'm going with this?

[DPDarkPrimus]

God created anthrax. Can't be all that bad.

[data_link]

God created Evil. Can't be all that bad.

[Shinova]

Okay, we've all heard of the vapid fundies that have stated that prayer will defeat medicine and technology with no help. However, we also know that most if these people are those that say that God has created evrything, and that humans have free will. Not to mention that although humans have free will, everything that the humans have created was really created by God and his will. So this leads to a dilemma. Either God created medicine and technology for our use, he gave us free will for the purpose of creating medicine and technology, or he did not create anything at all.

So is this a viable arguement, or am I just bullshitting myself?

(Gotta love random thoughts, ne?)

I say metaphysical philosophy has caught you by the balls


On a more serious note, one could probably say that since god created humans with free will, credit for medicine ultimately goes to God because he allowed for the existence of the free will that gave rise to medicine.

Exactly my point. What I was trying to say was that these fundies say that medicine is a bad thing. However, if God created it, it can't be bad. See where I'm going with this?

That kind of perception is the fundies' fault. Hypocrisy, in other words.

[Shinova]

God created anthrax. Can't be all that bad.

Until you die from it. Then you'd hate God, anthrax, whatever with everything

[Ghost Rider]

Given all the good and bad things could credit God supposedly with(variety of plagues and such)...we basically should wonder why a being who supposedly is all powerful would create crap for the sole sake of only affecting us and killing only us.

Honestly it's something I wonder...though I know the fundie answer(testing us my ass...fucker is either toying or he's a sadistic sonnovabiatch)

Besides...I still have wonder why anyone would credit God with creating good and evil given these are concepts only we follow...eh.

[haas mark]

That kind of perception is the fundies' fault. Hypocrisy, in other words.

So do I have a viable arguement, then...?

[Shinova]

That kind of perception is the fundies' fault. Hypocrisy, in other words.

So do I have a viable arguement, then...?

I think you have a viable question, not exactly an argument from where I can see.

[Shinova]

Given all the good and bad things could credit God supposedly with(variety of plagues and such)...we basically should wonder why a being who supposedly is all powerful would create crap for the sole sake of only affecting us and killing only us.

My guess is that those bad things do two things for us:


1. Make us appreciate the good things more.

2. From experience dealing with them, we grow stronger. No pain, no gain. (or was it game?)

[haas mark]

That kind of perception is the fundies' fault. Hypocrisy, in other words.

So do I have a viable arguement, then...?

I think you have a viable question, not exactly an argument from where I can see.

How about an arguement that they are wrong about the whole medicine thing if they believe all this stuff.

Sorry, my meds make me kind of sleepy, so I am really tired while I write this stuff and frankly, meds suck. So I forgot a lot of what I meant to write in there, likely...

[data_link]

Honestly it's something I wonder...though I know the fundie answer(testing us my ass...fucker is either toying or he's a sadistic sonnovabiatch)

No, you don't know the fundie answer I'm afraid... they are far more illogical that you can possibly imagine.

THIS is the fundie answer:
<fundie>"God did not create these things - God gave us free will to do as we choose, and when Adam chose to disobey God, sin entered the world, and that caused all of the things that are wrong exist because of that sin. But then Jesus came and dieed for that sin, and you can have eternal salvation if you accept him as your personal saviour."</fundie>

I do not make this stuff up.

Besides...I still have wonder why anyone would credit God with creating good and evil given these are concepts only we follow...eh.

I know this, and you know this, but they don't know this.

[haas mark]

God did not create these things

But GOd created everything remember? That is where the dilemma lies.

[data_link]

God did not create these things

But GOd created everything remember? That is where the dilemma lies.

<fundie>God created everything, yes. But He is not responsible for sin. Man had free will to do as he chose, and he chose to sin, and that is why sin exists. God could have stopped him, but God loved us so much that He allowed us our free will instead even if that meant that some would end up as sinners.</fundie>

Gah. It hurts my head to write that stuff.

[haas mark]

God did not create these things

But GOd created everything remember? That is where the dilemma lies.

<fundie>God created everything, yes. But He is not responsible for sin. Man had free will to do as he chose, and he chose to sin, and that is why sin exists. God could have stopped him, but God loved us so much that He allowed us our free will instead even if that meant that some would end up as sinners.</fundie>

Gah. It hurts my head to write that stuff.

But God created everything. If sin is part of everything, then God created sin, not man. How does that prove medicine and tech as sin,t hough?

[data_link]

But God created everything. If sin is part of everything, then God created sin, not man. How does that prove medicine and tech as sin,t hough?

<fundie>Your sophistry is showing. If you believe what you just wrote you have no understanding of the problem.</fundie>

[haas mark]

But God created everything. If sin is part of everything, then God created sin, not man. How does that prove medicine and tech as sin,t hough?

<fundie>Your sophistry is showing. If you believe what you just wrote you have no understanding of the problem.</fundie>

lmao. How true. Honestly, though, how do they show that meds are sin?

[The Dark]

Je ne sais pas, but I do know that according to moderate theology, God created all that is good, and the evil is merely a perversion of the good, a parasite that cannot exist except in contrast with the good.

Natural evil can be considered to have been created by God as an obstacle to overcome for purposes of growth, which is the only thing I can think of the fundies using. "You won't grow if you take the easy way out" sort of thing. Utter BS, but most of their arguments (towards atheists, other religions, and theologically) tend to be that way.

[haas mark]

So would praying be the easy way out?

[InnerBrat]

I think some fundies do aprove of medicine, 'cause God created everything, including medicine. Even if Man did, God gave him the idea.

I don' know many fundies who don't approve of medicine though I've heard of some. One of my frineds at scholl was Jehovah's Witness, and she wouldn't accept a blood donation (luckily she never needed to...)

[Sir Sirius]

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
-- Epicurus

If some fundie decides to choose prayers and god over modern medicine and doctors as a treatment for cancer, I don't really care, soon there be one fundie less on this globe. However when fundies denie their children, infants even, a life saving medical procedure because of their religious beliefs I do have a problem with it. A two month old infant isn't really a memeber of any religion and has no religious beliefs one way or the other and I don't think that the childs parents have the right to decide whether he/she lives or dies in a situation where a simple medical procedure, like a blood transfusion, would safe his/her life, based solely on their religious beliefs.

[Zoink]

have stated that prayer will defeat medicine and technology with no help.

That should be easily tested. Perhaps a "Junkyard Wars" type battle? The two teams duke it out, with the techno team building a giant cannon, and the holy team just praying a lot.

[InnerBrat]

If some fundie decides to choose prayers and god over modern medicine and doctors as a treatment for cancer, I don't really care, soon there be one fundie less on this globe. However when fundies denie their children, infants even, a life saving medical procedure because of their religious beliefs I do have a problem with it. A two month old infant isn't really a memeber of any religion and has no religious beliefs one way or the other and I don't think that the childs parents have the right to decide whether he/she lives or dies in a situation where a simple medical procedure, like a blood transfusion, would safe his/her life, based solely on their religious beliefs.

Trouble is of course, that the parents really do think they're doing what's best for the child (most of the time). to most religions, the state of the immortal soul is more important than the length or quality of life.
What can you do? You can't force medical procedures on people.

Incidentally, I think prayer does help. It's probably one of the most effective placebos.

[Wicked Pilot]

God created bacteria, viruses, etc. Man created antibodies, vaccines, etc.

Man is cool, God is a shithead. Any questions?