Is Christianity a cult?

Post by **AdmiralKanos** » 2002-12-05 12:46am

pecker wrote:1) You can call Chrsitianity a cult. However, all cults are not the same. Therefore, calling it a cult does not equate it to all others cults, which is what you are trying to do.

Which is why I differentiate between the formal definition and the perjorative colloquial definition of "cult". By the formal definition, Christianity is a cult. By the perjorative definition, fundie denominations are cults, and some of the others too.

2 and 3) The reason you want to be able to equate Christianity to a cult is becasue you don't like it and want to be able to demonize it with the likes of Jonestown, the Moonies, etc... I'm arguing that calling it a cult does not do this, so there is little point in it.

Appeal to motive, followed by strawman fallacy. I demonize the Bible (not necessarily all Christians) by pointing out its MASSIVE, GLARING ATROCITIES, not by simply using the word "cult" like some sort of hammer.

I did not say that. Christianity cannot be considered a cult in the sense you want it to be. You don't like Chrsitianity, you want it demonized. However, this time, it's not going to work.

More fallacious attempts to appeal to motive.

OK, fine it's a cult. But it's a different kind of cult than from Jonestown, which si not your goal. Try to understand, if Jonestown was socially acceptable, it would NOT have been a cult.

There you go again, appealing to popularity. "If Jonestown was socially acceptable, it would not have been a cult?" Listen to yourself!!!! Any Christian denomination which strictly follows the Bible is a cult. I can demonstrate this by examining the Bible. For the umpteenth time, you cannot erase these facts by smearing me with the strawman accusation that I lump all Christians into a single group. I've known many Christians who would agree that Gandhi and Einstein are in heaven, for example, despite the fact that neither believed in Jesus or the Biblical God.

Post by **Coyote** » 2002-12-05 12:53am

Please remember, and this is something that most if not all Christians know, that once upon a time if aperson wanted ot be a Christian, they had to first be a Jew.

Christianity is based on the prophesy of the Hebrews that one day a Messiah would come from among the kin of David and bring peace to the Earth. Jesus was a Jew and many of his friends thought that he must be the guy they'd read about.

So in order to understand who Jesus was, you had to be inculcated with the concept of the Hebrew Messiah and the OT prophesies. Christians were once a splinter faction of Judaism, a small sect-- what would be called a cult. Small in numbers and espousing an offbeat form of another, more dominant philosophy.

They tried ot convince other Jews that "Jesus was the Messiah", but when these Jews looked in their Torah or asked for Rabbi guidance, they realized that he was not the guy and they had to wait some more. The nascent Christians had a hard time convincing theit fellows of their beliefs.

So they needed numbers, and they turned to recruiting from theoutside: pagans. Cornelius the Centurion was one who was considering becoming Jewish but balked at the idea of circumcision, so it was dropped to accomodate the fence-sitters. Paul agonizes over eating unkosher food, so he claims ot see a vision (Book of Acts) where God lowers a basketful of animals by parachute and tells him he can eat whatever God made.

Poof! The restrictive rules are gone-- kosher, circumcision-- now Pagans are willing to join up since there's no pain involved.

Later, in the time of Constantine, Sol and Mithras worship were popular, but Constantine wanted Christianity to be more widespread so he declared all monotheistic worshippers to be "Christian" under the idea that anyone who accepts the worship of only a single deity to be a variant or interpretation of Christianity.

Probably, by this time, the Church was made more publicly acceptable and here it was shaking off the image of being a "cult". Bear in mind, it was widespread public acceptance (and probably Roman writ) that pulled it out of "cult" status, more than any change in dogma, doctrine, or theology...

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2002-12-05 02:32am

Apology ahead of time for using a big cut-and-paste.

I think part of the dispute here comes from differing definitions of cult, so I decided to look it up:

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition wrote:cult
n.

1.
a.A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.
b.The followers of such a religion or sect.
2. A system or community of religious worship and ritual.
3. The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious ceremony and ritual.
4. A usually nonscientific method or regimen claimed by its originator to have exclusive or exceptional power in curing a particular disease.
5.
a.Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing.
b.The object of such devotion.
6. An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually artistic or intellectual interest.

It would seem that Pecker is using definition #1, and Admiral Kanos #2. Both are valid, it just needs to be determined which definition shall be used for the purposes of this discussion.

data_link · Post by **data_link** » 2002-12-05 03:00am

Will a mod please relocate this pointless discussion about the definition of cult into another thread?

pecker · Post by **pecker** » 2002-12-05 10:40am

Well, it seems that some people are unable to understand the basic principles of a cult. You don't like the fact that by definition, something that is popular cannot be a cult in the sense you want it to be.

Chrsitianity is a cult in the sense tha tit is a religious devotion. However, it is NOT a cult in the evil sense that the Moonies, Jonestown, and countless others are held. This si your motive. I am not attacking your facts, but your reasoning, because your reasoning is majorly at fault.

I am not appealing to motive, because your motive is the entire point of the argument. You want to be able to call Christianity a cult in the evil sense of the word. I am pointing out to you that by definition you cannot equate the two by simply using the same word. I may simply be arguing semantics, but the entire point of this argument is semantics.

I am in no way defending Christianity. I am only pointing out a flaw in your thinking.

This is an unwinnable argument for either of us, so I won't annoy datalink any more with it.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2002-12-05 12:09pm

Christianity still has the same types of beliefs and practices as cults do.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-12-05 12:24pm

The Dark wrote:It would seem that Pecker is using definition #1, and Admiral Kanos #2. Both are valid, it just needs to be determined which definition shall be used for the purposes of this discussion.

You and Pecker are both missing the point; if both are valid, then Pecker CANNOT say that my definition is wrong, which is precisely what he's saying.

pecker · Post by **pecker** » 2002-12-05 01:24pm

Darth Wong wrote:
The Dark wrote:It would seem that Pecker is using definition #1, and Admiral Kanos #2. Both are valid, it just needs to be determined which definition shall be used for the purposes of this discussion.
You and Pecker are both missing the point; if both are valid, then Pecker CANNOT say that my definition is wrong, which is precisely what he's saying.

When I read someone saying Chrsitianity is a cult, I take that to mean they want to clump it with cults like Jonestown, Church of the Divine Light, Branch Davidians, etc... This is usually the case. If one simply meant it in the cult sense that it is a reliugious devotion, they would simply say it is a religion, instead of pressing the word cult so fervently.

The word cult can have many meanings, which is what I'm trying to point out. When I say "Christianity if not a cult', I mean that it is not a cult in the 'evil' sense that is usually associated with the word. If you'll tell me this was not your intent, then I'll shut up.

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2002-12-05 02:07pm

All religions are cults. Some cults are more harmful than others. What's with all the bullshit over one little word?

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2002-12-05 02:08pm

When I read someone saying Chrsitianity is a cult, I take that to mean they want to clump it with cults like Jonestown, Church of the Divine Light, Branch Davidians, etc... This is usually the case. If one simply meant it in the cult sense that it is a reliugious devotion, they would simply say it is a religion, instead of pressing the word cult so fervently.

Christianity has many of the same types of practices and beliefs that these cults do. Take what some cults believe: "Aliens will someday come and take us all away to their paradise world, but we have to give our money to their emissary and never question him." A simple substitution will get you, "Jesus will someday come back and kill all our enemies and take all us good people away to Heaven, but we have to give our money to the Church and never question it."

The only real distinction is one of scale, and that's the difference between a large, financially successful cult, and a small, financially unsuccessful one.

The word cult can have many meanings, which is what I'm trying to point out. When I say "Christianity if not a cult', I mean that it is not a cult in the 'evil' sense that is usually associated with the word. If you'll tell me this was not your intent, then I'll shut up.

Christianity fits the definition of a cult. We told that in my theology class back in high school, by a Christian. Even they admit it. They've got the same moronic kinds of beliefs that cults have; they're just more successful. That's the only difference.

pecker · Post by **pecker** » 2002-12-05 03:31pm

If you didn't read, I DIDN'T DENY IT WAS A CULT. What I deny is that it is of the same degree as the 'evil' cults. It does have many, if not all, of the attributes of a cult. However, they are not to the same degree as many other cults. This is all that I'm saying.

data_link · Post by **data_link** » 2002-12-05 05:52pm

pecker wrote:If you didn't read, I DIDN'T DENY IT WAS A CULT. What I deny is that it is of the same degree as the 'evil' cults. It does have many, if not all, of the attributes of a cult. However, they are not to the same degree as many other cults. This is all that I'm saying.

PECKER, FOR THE LAST TIME, SHUT THE FUCK UP!

I am sick and tired of reading a four-page argument over the definition of cult. IT DOES NOT BELONG IN THIS THREAD, IT IS NOT RELEVANT TO THE SUBJECT, and frankly, I DON'T REALLY GIVE A SHIT WHETHER CHRISTIANITY IS A CULT OR NOT BECAUSE IT IS STILL THE PROVINCE OF MONUMENTALLY STUPID MORONS WHO CAN'T ACCEPT THAT GOD IS A DAMN FAIRY TALE.

Now, once again, will a mod please get this moronic discussion out of this thread? Preferably by putting it in the hall of shame.

XPViking · Post by **XPViking** » 2002-12-05 08:54pm

All religions are cults. Some cults are more harmful than others. What's with all the bullshit over one little word? - Wicked Pilot

Well, it's because most people associate the word "cult" in a negative light, as Darth Wong already pointed out. People usually don't like to be associated with negative things, even if what they belong to fits the dictionary definition given.

XPViking

XPViking · Post by **XPViking** » 2002-12-05 08:57pm

data_link,

Take a look at the title for your topic.

"Is Christianity a Cult"

If there are words in the title that seem ambiguous, then what is your problem in everyone trying to agree on a definition?

XPViking

Exonerate · Post by **Exonerate** » 2002-12-05 09:03pm

The Apologist wrote:
Instead of being an idiot explain the flaw in his argument.
I thought I had. Perhaps you require simpler and more direct explanations.

Basically, fallacies can only be committed within deductive reasoning*, but Gricksigger's notions involved purely inductive reasoning.

Come on, ther must be something in the branches of scientific knowledge you disagree with.
Well, I do not agree that scientific knowledge is indeed knowledge as such. Rather, it is belief, or a system thereof.

Other than that, I am notably flexible on what science says, so I probably will not disagree with anything scientific.

*This is because only deductive arguments make a definitive claim regarding the truth value of the conclusion given the truth value of the premises and the validity of the inference. If the argument is sound and the premises are true, the conclusion must be true as well.

This is in stark contrast to inductive reasoning, which can only provide a probalistic argument for any conclusive proposition, and therefore assumes no certainty and is not subject to any type of logical fallacy.

There is no perfect way of logic. For inductive reasoning to be true, what you know from before must also be true. For example, I believe the person who came up with it (Bacon? Not sure) started with "I think, therefore I am." The only problem is that how do you know you're thinking? Maybe you're just thinking that you're thinking

SeebianWurm · Post by **SeebianWurm** » 2002-12-05 09:38pm

Gone for a day, miss the whole damn argument.

data_link · Post by **data_link** » 2002-12-06 12:27am

XPViking wrote:data_link,

Take a look at the title for your topic.

"Is Christianity a Cult"

If there are words in the title that seem ambiguous, then what is your problem in everyone trying to agree on a definition?

XPViking

This thread was split from the "Christian questions" thread, my objections were posted before it was split.

XPViking · Post by **XPViking** » 2002-12-06 01:53am

Fair enough. The original subject that you proposed data_link is still going on in the "Christian questions" thread. This one seems to be dealing with coming up with a suitable definition for "cult". Oh well. Looking back on this thread, it seems that on page one someone (Gricksligger? sp) mentioned "cult" and it went from there.

I wonder if we can agree on what a cult is and if Christianity (or at least some aspects of it) fits that definition.

XPViking

data_link · Post by **data_link** » 2002-12-06 02:06am

XPViking wrote:Fair enough. The original subject that you proposed data_link is still going on in the "Christian questions" thread.

I know... this discussion was basically hijacking that thread, which was why I was trying to get the thread split.

XPViking wrote:I wonder if we can agree on what a cult is and if Christianity (or at least some aspects of it) fits that definition.

From the looks of this thread, probably not.