WE THE PEOPLE

[patkelly]

WE THE PEOPLE are ultimately responsible for the world we live in. It is time we recognize and take back the reins of our responsibility.

Each and every one of us is responsible for the actions of our leaders. Regardless of whether we live in a democracy, monarchy, dictatorship, communist regime or whatever, it is WE THE PEOPLE who always holds the ultimate power.

Israeli citizens are responsible for every military action and government policy that devalues the lives of Palestinians. Palestinians are equally responsible for the extremist organizations that encourage weak-minded individuals to blow themselves up in terrorist attacks. Every American must bare very legitimate responsibility for each North Korean, Iranian or Cuban child allowed to die as a direct result of sanctions or for each bomb that falls along with its acceptable collateral damage. Malaysians, Iranians, Muslims, Protestants and Catholics are all responsible for turning their heads while extremist elements claiming to represent their interests reap death and destruction in their name.

WE THE PEOPLE who so often feel powerless to do anything to improve the world we live in are ultimately responsible for each injustice we allow to pass unchallenged. Becoming desensitized to the needs of the poor, sick and starving or all the persecutions, violence and senseless killings absolves no one from their role of ineptitude and inaction. The power to change and our responsibility to force change upon irrational minds cannot be usurped. We are the ones who have permitted the world to become what it is today and along with our children, we will be the ones who must reap what we have sown.

The tasks and challenges ahead are many as national boundaries dissolve into new global understandings that redefine human commonality and residence upon the same single planet. Religion and all the different religious affiliations will pass into the darker side of human history as we develop the courage necessary to replace mythical understandings with reality based fact. Wasted resources and prayers to imaginary gods will eventually be redirected back into humanity where it can finally do some real and tangible good. Sex and all the other manifestations of wide ranging human diversity will evolve into something that is cherished instead of condemned. New and far more rational concepts of morality will change to replace old values left over from times when we could not have know better. The sooner each and every one of us realizes the true strengths and obligations inherently passed to us by the sparks of life, the sooner we will all be able to accept the true role and responsibilities that unquestionably belongs to WE THE PEOPLE.

This is our world and its about time WE THE PEOPLE rise up and take it back from the ignorance, irrationalism, stupidity, intolerance, greed, repression and fear that has taken it from us. WE have the power. WE have the ultimate responsibility. WE are THE PEOPLE.

[Kuja]

What, exactly, is your objective here?

I admire your passion, I really do, but I don't understand what you want us to do/say about this. Us, specifically, I mean. If it's a simple 'spread the word' then by all means, continue. However, if you have a more personal objective, please tell us now.

[Joe]

I just don't know what to think of these two posts.

[Darth Wong]

Hey patkelly, here's a suggestion: participate in other peoples' threads in order to let people get to know you. The way you're conducting yourself, you come off as a preacher: stand up, say your piece, and then leave. It's not very nice to do that.

[Sea Skimmer]

***

And your greater point is?

[Nova Andromeda]

Amen Brother!

And your greater point is?

--His point is get off your @$$ (speaking generally) and do something constructive in this fight.
-I would point out that the devil is in the details and there needs to be consensus on what exactly to do. I would say put most of our resources in the fight for education.

[patkelly]

The point of this post, though obviously not well conveyed is that we have become too complacent and lost much of our will to play active roles in controlling the things that affect us. Many seem to have accepted that big government, big corporations and big social institutions have taken control away from us and there is nothing we can do about it. We demand and expect too little from our elected representatives. The silent majority has become too silent and is rarely heard from anymore. I think I read somewhere that less than 50% of eligible voters go to the polls in America. Correct me if I am wrong. We raised hell in the 60’s and were bent on changing the world and fighting for the principles we believed in. What happened to us and the new world we were going to create?

[Kuja]

What happened to us and the new world we were going to create?

It got lost in the shuffle between 'Kill the Commies' and 'Reagenomics'.

[Darth Wong]

The point of this post, though obviously not well conveyed is that we have become too complacent and lost much of our will to play active roles in controlling the things that affect us. Many seem to have accepted that big government, big corporations and big social institutions have taken control away from us and there is nothing we can do about it. We demand and expect too little from our elected representatives. The silent majority has become too silent and is rarely heard from anymore. I think I read somewhere that less than 50% of eligible voters go to the polls in America. Correct me if I am wrong.

You're not wrong. As an old friend commented once, Americans are either born Democrat or Republican, and they rarely switch sides no matter what's happening. The party that wins is the one that can get more of its lazy-assed voters out to the polls on election day.

We raised hell in the 60’s and were bent on changing the world and fighting for the principles we believed in. What happened to us and the new world we were going to create?

You got jobs. You got kids. You got houses. You got things you wanted to protect, so you started becoming realists instead of idealists, and then after becoming realists, some of you decided to throw ideals right out the window. It happens.

PS. Does this mean you grew up in the 60's? Or are you one of those young people who subscribes to rose-coloured Boomer nostalgia about that period in history?

[Knife]

WE THE PEOPLE are ultimately responsible for the world we live in. It is time we recognize and take back the reins of our responsibility.

Each and every one of us is responsible for the actions of our leaders. Regardless of whether we live in a democracy, monarchy, dictatorship, communist regime or whatever, it is WE THE PEOPLE who always holds the ultimate power.

Israeli citizens are responsible for every military action and government policy that devalues the lives of Palestinians. Palestinians are equally responsible for the extremist organizations that encourage weak-minded individuals to blow themselves up in terrorist attacks. Every American must bare very legitimate responsibility for each North Korean, Iranian or Cuban child allowed to die as a direct result of sanctions or for each bomb that falls along with its acceptable collateral damage. Malaysians, Iranians, Muslims, Protestants and Catholics are all responsible for turning their heads while extremist elements claiming to represent their interests reap death and destruction in their name.

WE THE PEOPLE who so often feel powerless to do anything to improve the world we live in are ultimately responsible for each injustice we allow to pass unchallenged. Becoming desensitized to the needs of the poor, sick and starving or all the persecutions, violence and senseless killings absolves no one from their role of ineptitude and inaction. The power to change and our responsibility to force change upon irrational minds cannot be usurped. We are the ones who have permitted the world to become what it is today and along with our children, we will be the ones who must reap what we have sown.

The tasks and challenges ahead are many as national boundaries dissolve into new global understandings that redefine human commonality and residence upon the same single planet. Religion and all the different religious affiliations will pass into the darker side of human history as we develop the courage necessary to replace mythical understandings with reality based fact. Wasted resources and prayers to imaginary gods will eventually be redirected back into humanity where it can finally do some real and tangible good. Sex and all the other manifestations of wide ranging human diversity will evolve into something that is cherished instead of condemned. New and far more rational concepts of morality will change to replace old values left over from times when we could not have know better. The sooner each and every one of us realizes the true strengths and obligations inherently passed to us by the sparks of life, the sooner we will all be able to accept the true role and responsibilities that unquestionably belongs to WE THE PEOPLE.

This is our world and its about time WE THE PEOPLE rise up and take it back from the ignorance, irrationalism, stupidity, intolerance, greed, repression and fear that has taken it from us. WE have the power. WE have the ultimate responsibility. WE are THE PEOPLE.

You started off nice, then went down hill. Why would the American people be responsible for the people and leaders of other countries that we have sanctioned. We don't do this for nothing and they can change it at anytime by following the rules and laws to ease the sanctions. I have not killed any Iraqi people, Saddam has killed thousands by not complying with the cease fire that he agreed to. As you said, take responsibility for your actions, he is violating the agreement so he should take responsibility for his actions.

Though, in general I do agree with the meat and potatoes of your post.

[Knife]

The point of this post, though obviously not well conveyed is that we have become too complacent and lost much of our will to play active roles in controlling the things that affect us. Many seem to have accepted that big government, big corporations and big social institutions have taken control away from us and there is nothing we can do about it. We demand and expect too little from our elected representatives. The silent majority has become too silent and is rarely heard from anymore. I think I read somewhere that less than 50% of eligible voters go to the polls in America. Correct me if I am wrong. We raised hell in the 60’s and were bent on changing the world and fighting for the principles we believed in. What happened to us and the new world we were going to create?

You grew up and found out that reality and ideology are not the same thing.

[neoolong]

Hell, I found that out before I was twenty. Too many comic books and movies.

[patkelly]

Darth - DOB 1950

Knife - It is easy to perceive the American perspective from an American armchair comfortable planted in front of the TV. It is easy to assume the rest of the world should hold the same positions, values and perspectives. But the reality is that America occupies only a small part of the world and it usually takes living within one or more different cultures far removed from the American way of life to truly understand this. This is why many outside America perceive Americans as being a bit full of themselves. The truth is the typical American view of the real world is likely very limited leaving many Americans unaware of the fact other countries are actually far more socially advanced.

[Kuja]

Knife - It is easy to perceive the American perspective from an American armchair comfortable planted in front of the TV. It is easy to assume the rest of the world should hold the same positions, values and perspectives. But the reality is that America occupies only a small part of the world and it usually takes living within one or more different cultures far removed from the American way of life to truly understand this. This is why many outside America perceive Americans as being a bit full of themselves. The truth is the typical American view of the real world is likely very limited leaving many Americans unaware of the fact other countries are actually far more socially advanced.

This is very true, and has been brought up here many times.

[Knife]

Darth - DOB 1950

Knife - It is easy to perceive the American perspective from an American armchair comfortable planted in front of the TV. It is easy to assume the rest of the world should hold the same positions, values and perspectives. But the reality is that America occupies only a small part of the world and it usually takes living within one or more different cultures far removed from the American way of life to truly understand this. This is why many outside America perceive Americans as being a bit full of themselves. The truth is the typical American view of the real world is likely very limited leaving many Americans unaware of the fact other countries are actually far more socially advanced.

You dicount the possibility that I have been out in the world, seen other cultures and civilizations and still hold on to my beliefs. You discount the possibility that I do not just sit on my large behind in my armchair and pay little if no attention to the happenings of the world. My opinions are not one's of ignorance but those born of experience from my adventures in life.

Other countries being more socially advanced? How about just different, people do things different and being different is not superior nor inferior. And having a view not like yours is different and does not fall into the right/wrong catagory.

[patkelly]

Knife – I obviously do not know you personally and therefore was more or less addressing average America. I was assuming based upon your earlier response that you probably had not spent much if any time in cultures outside the US not unlike the average American.

I have discounted nothing and you are free to set me straight regarding the various cultures you spent enough time in to actually get to know and understand them.

You seem somewhat insulted by the armchair inference; but again unless you are a rare individual who constantly exposes themselves to views originating outside the US media you are unfortunately limited to the US media’s version of things. Moreover, if you think you are getting an accurate window on the world from the mainstream news media in the US there is a bridge in upstate New York I want to show you.

I appreciate your defensive stance regarding American culture but once again, if you spend any real time outside the US you would know I am not talking about cultural differences but specific and tangible advances other cultures clearly have over America. Case in point: Most other countries do not have metal detectors in schools to prevent students from blowing each other away in running schoolyard gun battles. Case in point: You can safely walk all the streets of large cities in many countries at 3 am in relative safety. Try that in Philadelphia, Chicago or LA. Case in point: In some non-North American cultures you can openly acknowledge the sexual attractiveness of a pretty female stranger with a wink or smile without her responding like you are some pervert about to rape, rob or murder her. Case in point: In certain non-American cultures, for some reason it seems easier for people to smile more often even though they may be poor, illiterate and without many of the comforts most American have learned to take for granted.

If you want to try and view all of this in terms of right or wrong I must say that America has more than it’s share of social problems and in my opinion, America is most certainly wrong for not doing much about it. Something is seriously wrong with values that permit mind-boggling amounts to be spent protecting the public from the threat of terrorism when every night over a million American children go to bed hungry. I think I heard that on CNN.

One important point my original post failed to address is that if we really care about the neighborhood, state, country or world we live in, that concern would be far better served by acknowledging the reality of our problems instead of wasting energy blindly defending national egos.

[Knife]

Knife – I obviously do not know you personally and therefore was more or less addressing average America. I was assuming based upon your earlier response that you probably had not spent much if any time in cultures outside the US not unlike the average American.

I have discounted nothing and you are free to set me straight regarding the various cultures you spent enough time in to actually get to know and understand them.

You seem somewhat insulted by the armchair inference; but again unless you are a rare individual who constantly exposes themselves to views originating outside the US media you are unfortunately limited to the US media’s version of things. Moreover, if you think you are getting an accurate window on the world from the mainstream news media in the US there is a bridge in upstate New York I want to show you.

I appreciate your defensive stance regarding American culture but once again, if you spend any real time outside the US you would know I am not talking about cultural differences but specific and tangible advances other cultures clearly have over America. Case in point: Most other countries do not have metal detectors in schools to prevent students from blowing each other away in running schoolyard gun battles. Case in point: You can safely walk all the streets of large cities in many countries at 3 am in relative safety. Try that in Philadelphia, Chicago or LA. Case in point: In some non-North American cultures you can openly acknowledge the sexual attractiveness of a pretty female stranger with a wink or smile without her responding like you are some pervert about to rape, rob or murder her. Case in point: In certain non-American cultures, for some reason it seems easier for people to smile more often even though they may be poor, illiterate and without many of the comforts most American have learned to take for granted.

If you want to try and view all of this in terms of right or wrong I must say that America has more than it’s share of social problems and in my opinion, America is most certainly wrong for not doing much about it. Something is seriously wrong with values that permit mind-boggling amounts to be spent protecting the public from the threat of terrorism when every night over a million American children go to bed hungry. I think I heard that on CNN.

One important point my original post failed to address is that if we really care about the neighborhood, state, country or world we live in, that concern would be far better served by acknowledging the reality of our problems instead of wasting energy blindly defending national egos.

Ah, where to start?

1. Only those who want one view on "mainstream media" get one view. Today more than ever there is a large choise of information through readily avalible sources. One shouldn't watch or read just one source, but to say the is only one view out there is disingenuous and misleading. It is the individuals responsibility to take various reports and make an conclusion about it. And yes I am somewhat insulted at the fat lazy American thing, show me where other countries and cultures take a more active role in world affairs? Your post was about responsibility, does not this include global responsibility? We try to live up to our responsibilities, we might not all ways succed but we try, so you can't have it both ways. And when you have time, lets take alook at that bridge you have.

2. Other countries deal with thing differently because they have different needs than others. Population, econemy, goverment, culture, and the needs of the moment all contribute to the policies and traditions of said cultures at any given time. Some what peaceful culture can go horribly war like under the right (or wrong) conditions. As for your examples, one could come up with scores of counter points and examples to invalidate those. Again different cultures different rules. Other countries that you could walk down the middle of the street at 3am are that way primarily because of draconian laws that I am sure you would not want to live under. Spit on the side walk and recieve 5 whackings with a big stick, sure the crime rate is lower in this regard but at what price of freedom. Metal detectors at schools are there because of the same weakness in criminal justice that also prevents us from spanking our criminals in public.

3. America does right and wrong and I will not deny it. How ever when someone wants America to take other people's responsibility from them and shoulder it, it goes against your original point.

4. And its not national ego I am defending but the notion that we are not responsible for the people who can but don't take responisbility for themselves.

[Durandal]

Whatever.

[Shinova]

Apparently patkelly's honeymoon on this board is now over

[patkelly]

Funny that you would refer to Singapore as a country you feel might be socially superior to the US. Every Singaporean I have ever spoken with resents the high level of government restrictions and involvement in their lives, especially taxi drivers. The smiles reference I was making actually referred to Thailand which is on the other side of the scale when it comes to a higher level of personal freedoms.

It seems the difference in our positions can be boiled down into a single opposing concept. Though you acknowledge there are problems you appear to be saying that in spite of the problems things are going along as good as can be expected and there is no need to consider changing direction. On the other hand my position is that something is very wrong and needs to be fixed.

Perhaps your aspirations for what could be are less than my own. Perhaps you see my position as based upon unrealistic ideals that can only serve to make people more dissatisfied with practical reality. Perhaps you are in denial or for some other reason unable to see the same problems I see. In any event, no rational resolution to our different positions seems possible.

[Colonel Olrik]

It seems the difference in our positions can be boiled down into a single opposing concept. Though you acknowledge there are problems you appear to be saying that in spite of the problems things are going along as good as can be expected and there is no need to consider changing direction. On the other hand my position is that something is very wrong and needs to be fixed.

Yes, start a revolution and bomb the White House out of existance!!

Or try to educate the population and cut the power from the religious fundies.

Anyway, I'm European, so I say.. Buahahah

Perhaps your aspirations for what could be are less than my own. Perhaps you see my position as based upon unrealistic ideals that can only serve to make people more dissatisfied with practical reality. Perhaps you are in denial or for some other reason unable to see the same problems I see.

Perhaps you're preaching to people who agree with you from the start, so it's really a pointless arguing. Only difference, you're a bit radical

In any event, no rational resolution to our different positions seems possible.

Wow! You've never tried arguing science with a fundie, have you? Then you would see what are two incompatible points of view. Knife basically agrees with you

[Knife]

It seems the difference in our positions can be boiled down into a single opposing concept. Though you acknowledge there are problems you appear to be saying that in spite of the problems things are going along as good as can be expected and there is no need to consider changing direction. On the other hand my position is that something is very wrong and needs to be fixed.

Yes, start a revolution and bomb the White House out of existance!!

Or try to educate the population and cut the power from the religious fundies.

Anyway, I'm European, so I say.. Buahahah

Perhaps your aspirations for what could be are less than my own. Perhaps you see my position as based upon unrealistic ideals that can only serve to make people more dissatisfied with practical reality. Perhaps you are in denial or for some other reason unable to see the same problems I see.

Perhaps you're preaching to people who agree with you from the start, so it's really a pointless arguing. Only difference, you're a bit radical

In any event, no rational resolution to our different positions seems possible.

Wow! You've never tried arguing science with a fundie, have you? Then you would see what are two incompatible points of view. Knife basically agrees with you

Thanks Colonel Olrik, at its premace I do agree with Patkelly. What I do not agree with is that she tends to bend her argument of responsibility to mean that America is responsible for things it does not need nor should be responsible for...................