Must creationists be cowards?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-11-03 10:52pm

PS. Wait for them to declare that logic need not apply to their arguments. The minute they do that, you can quite literally and legitimately declare victory: by admitting that they do not apply logic to their arguments, they admit that they don't make sense. In other words, they admit that creationism doesn't make any sense. In other words, they just lost. Better luck next time.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-11-03 10:53pm

I almost forgot one more caveat: insist upon a word limit of, say, 2000 words. I have experienced the "victory through exhaustion" tactic enough times to know that you should really insist upon length limits.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2002-11-03 10:54pm

I think while many really do believe their views, most know they can't prove them, but want to anyway. Thus there often observed behavior of spewing bull be then evading accountability for it.

There are also those who know that it's really not possible, and those who believe it, but will admit they have no way of proving it.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2002-11-03 11:13pm

As I said before, I'll debate on young-earth creationism.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2002-11-03 11:17pm

Secular morality and homosexuality here

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-11-03 11:18pm

Alyrium Denryle wrote:Secular morality and homosexuality here

I've tried to debate both with the fundies at creationweb. They've run so far.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2002-11-03 11:57pm

Anything, anytime, anywhere. What is thy bidding?

Post by **weemadando** » 2002-11-04 12:01am

I'll grab biblical vs historical evidence.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2002-11-04 01:13am

I say we send them a list of denizens to debate, and topics that we'll debate on. Let's face it, creationism vs. evolution is a very broad topic, and it can get sidetracked very easily. If we stick to one, specific part of the overall scheme, we can crush them in a team effort. :)

So, we've got...

Durandal (me) for young-earth creationism vs. common sense and observation.

Alyrium for Biblical morality vs. secular morality.

WeeMadAndo for Biblical history vs. actual events. I'm sure that this would include the validity of Biblical prophecy, as well.

Do we have any biologists?

Post by **Coyote** » 2002-11-04 01:35am

WeeMadAndo, naturally my offer stands for support. I didn't know you were already well-versed in the Classics so you won't have a problem there but I can do some research for you if you need to find something obscure.

I also offer my knowledge of actual Archaeological sites and the proofs they offer as well as what they cannot. I can also find more stuff if you need it in this field.

If necessary, the Fundies like to point to the Hebrew prophesies for validation of Jesus as Messiah, but there are a number of Hebrew scholars who have put holes in this, and I can access them too.

Basically, consider me anyone's helpline, should things come into my area of expertise. Whoever is going to be the Field Marshal for our team can feel free to bring me in if it will help. I'd love a juicy, red, dripping piece of Fundie ass meat on the BBQ.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2002-11-04 01:36am

I'm always up for an asskicking.

Post by **weemadando** » 2002-11-04 01:46am

Coyote wrote:WeeMadAndo, naturally my offer stands for support. I didn't know you were already well-versed in the Classics so you won't have a problem there but I can do some research for you if you need to find something obscure.

I also offer my knowledge of actual Archaeological sites and the proofs they offer as well as what they cannot. I can also find more stuff if you need it in this field.

If necessary, the Fundies like to point to the Hebrew prophesies for validation of Jesus as Messiah, but there are a number of Hebrew scholars who have put holes in this, and I can access them too.

Basically, consider me anyone's helpline, should things come into my area of expertise. Whoever is going to be the Field Marshal for our team can feel free to bring me in if it will help. I'd love a juicy, red, dripping piece of Fundie ass meat on the BBQ.

All good. Any help is always appreciated and credited.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2002-11-04 01:47am

We need an ambassador to CreationWeb, now.

Einhander Sn0m4n · Post by **Einhander Sn0m4n** » 2002-11-04 04:17am

Durandal wrote:We need an ambassador to CreationWeb, now.

Somehow I doubt I would make a good choice, seeing as that E. Sn0 -+31337+- dropped twenty Atomic Pentagram Bombs™ on sixteen different targets on their board... I know him very well too...

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-11-04 04:25am

Stormbringer wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote:Secular morality and homosexuality here
I've tried to debate both with the fundies at creationweb. They've run so far.

THat's all they know how to do....is run fromanything (or anyone) that contradicts their beliefs. As we can see, they fear my name outright.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » 2002-11-04 08:27am

Durandal wrote:Macro-evolution is just the result of a large number of micro-evolutionary changes. The only difference is in scale, because the two are driven by the same mechanisms.

"A large enough difference of degree can produce an effective difference in kind"

I generally use that line to point out why the craft of software development is different from any form of hardware engineering, but it works for macroevolution, too.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2002-11-04 08:33am

Darth Wong wrote:
Exonerate wrote:I think it'll eventually die out... Look at how many Creationists are already changing their "theories" so that they agree with science. The ReBorn Earth theory so that it explains why the Earth is so old... Eventually, they'll probably keep twisting it until creationism and evolution is indistinguishable.
My favourite is the Institute for Creation Research at icr.org. They say that "macroevolution" is impossible, ie- evolutionary speciation cannot occur. But they also recognize that Noah could not have possibly carried millions of species on the Ark, so they "theorize" that evolutionary speciation WAS briefly possible after the Ark reached land. I'm not kidding.

I theorize that there was a very substansial localized increase in background radiation during the time these people where in the vomb, I'm not kidding!!

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2002-11-04 08:34am

Durandal wrote:Macro-evolution is just the result of a large number of micro-evolutionary changes. The only difference is in scale, because the two are driven by the same mechanisms.

Macro-evolution, cross a donkey and horse and you got a mule, that looks pretty macro to me.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2002-11-04 08:58am

Durandal (me) for young-earth creationism vs. common sense and observation.

Alyrium for Biblical morality vs. secular morality.

WeeMadAndo for Biblical history vs. actual events. I'm sure that this would include the validity of Biblical prophecy, as well.

Do we have any biologists?

Try Admiral Valdemar

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-11-04 09:01am

Durandal wrote:Durandal (me) for young-earth creationism vs. common sense and observation.

Alyrium for Biblical morality vs. secular morality.

WeeMadAndo for Biblical history vs. actual events. I'm sure that this would include the validity of Biblical prophecy, as well.

Do we have any biologists?

I am no biologist, but I WOULD like to get in on this...

Nick · Post by **Nick** » 2002-11-04 09:04am

His Divine Shadow wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:
Exonerate wrote:I think it'll eventually die out... Look at how many Creationists are already changing their "theories" so that they agree with science. The ReBorn Earth theory so that it explains why the Earth is so old... Eventually, they'll probably keep twisting it until creationism and evolution is indistinguishable.
My favourite is the Institute for Creation Research at icr.org. They say that "macroevolution" is impossible, ie- evolutionary speciation cannot occur. But they also recognize that Noah could not have possibly carried millions of species on the Ark, so they "theorize" that evolutionary speciation WAS briefly possible after the Ark reached land. I'm not kidding.
I theorize that there was a very substansial localized increase in background radiation during the time these people where in the vomb, I'm not kidding!!

Money. Lots and lots of money. If people are willing to buy something, there is always going to be someone willing to sell it to them. You don't think all of the creationists who rake in the cash from books and public appearances really believe the tripe they spout?

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2002-11-04 09:11am

I dont(yet) have the education to debate biology efficiently. I know the basics, but not enough to trounce them. When I have a doctorate in herpetology cal me back. until then talkt to Valdemar IIRC he is begining his graduate studies in biology.

Post by **Coyote** » 2002-11-04 10:52am

I wonder if they would accept, as a counter argument each time they said "John 3:16" we replied with "Pi 3.14!"

Just a thought.

Larz · Post by **Larz** » 2002-11-04 11:43am

I'll take up philosophy and human and sociel behavior and psychology... I know I'm a bit late on this...

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-11-04 12:25pm

I'll do whatever it takes to get back at them....