Johnathan Frakes - Pseudoscience Away!

[lgot]

I have read the book also...
you are right ,Darth Wong, the system used to control the park was dull, one thing fails and all other things go bum...
at least in the book, its slighty different, there is a back-up system that work without the lights...actually, in the book they totally recover the control of the park...
That is why there is no excuse.Spielberg made up a videogame,and even the book being a simple book also, the solutions there are much more inteligent than the movies...

[Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi]

In the book Jurassic Park, the dinosaurs went out of control when the scientists, filling in gaps in the DNA, put in the genes of a few gender-changing animals, so the dinosaurs could change gender, mate, and reproduce. I haven't seen the movie in a long time, and I don't know what happens in that.

Of course, many Hollywood producers like to make changes to plots when turning a book into a movie to make it more PC.

[Graeme Dice]

Going further on the topic of badly designed enclosures, the huge dinosaur in Jurassic Park III illustrates some really horrible knowledge of materials. It can rip right through the steel and reinforced concrete of its cage, but is stopped by the barred wooden door that has holes big enough to stick your head through.

[lgot]

In the book Jurassic Park, the dinosaurs went out of control when the scientists, filling in gaps in the DNA, put in the genes of a few gender-changing animals, so the dinosaurs could change gender, mate, and reproduce. I haven't seen the movie in a long time, and I don't know what happens in that.

There was two kind of break down in the book...They losing control of the dino's reproduction because the system had a logistic mistaken (wrong way to count the number of dinos) and the Break down with the Dennis Nedry's sabotage with the computer to sell the embryos. Then , he in a nerdlike feature, took the wrong tour and under a heavy storm got eaten. In the book, the system failure was expected , would happen and he would return quickly to fix it. (Still dumb, like Wong said, because Nedry was the only present that knew how to fix it.)
The movie all this is left aside...The reproduction mistaken was just quoted quickly (which ended helping for the sequels), the control system was more simple and Nedry ,more dumb.

Going further on the topic of badly designed enclosures, the huge dinosaur in Jurassic Park III illustrates some really horrible knowledge of materials. It can rip right through the steel and reinforced concrete of its cage, but is stopped by the barred wooden door that has holes big enough to stick your head through.

There is something even worse about the T.Rex being held be eletricity only...It was a thing worth of millions. If he didnt get killed by eletricity, he would eventually break it and flee. That is the way someone would treat such money ?

[Darth Wong]

I still think the bad enclosures were the real problem. Even if the dinosaurs start reproducing out of control, so what? If they can't break out of their enclosures they can't do any harm, and there are many ways of dealing with zoo overpopulation. Similarly, even if some idiot sabotages the computer system, so what? If the enclosures are properly designed in the first place, it won't make any difference.

You could leave every other problem in place or even make it twice as bad, and it still would have been fine if the enclosures had been properly designed.

[oberon]

It enthuses me to think that if a writer DID make realistic human behavior and engineering a part of hiser story, it would be a kickass read, provided they know how to write about technology (i.e., not Kaz). There would be real problems and since the failsafes would be real, any problems would be a challenge not only to create, but also to deal with for the people in the book. They'd be doozies.

[Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi]

Well, they thought a 10,000 volt electric fence would be enough. And about the overpopulation, in the book, it said the dinosaurs couldn't survive in the outside world, so the worst that could happen would be a billion-dollar inestment gone wrong. Of course, this is all going to be ignored if they're going to make a Jurassic Park IV.

[Galvatron]

Normally I do too, but not when they try to impart an Important Social Message about technology into the film, and they use those feeble plot devices as the justification.

It's like the Death Star's Achilles Heel. As a plot device, it's fine. If, on the other hand, GL had made us sit around and listen to characters talking about how technology can never be controlled due to chaos theory and the inherent superiority of nature over the works of man, I would start getting pissed off.

I really hate that shit. It's one of the problems I have with the Aliens series. Ripley has become the Ian Malcolm of that franchise...

[Darth Wong]

Well, they thought a 10,000 volt electric fence would be enough.

Not if it goes to zero volts during a power failure, which is precisely what happened. Even if Nedry hadn't screwed around with the computers, what if a transformer blew out and part of the grid went down? What kind of fucking idiot would design enclosures which require constant uninterruptible power in order to contain gigantic rampaging monsters? Particularly when there are perfectly workable low-tech, no-power solutions such as moats or sunken enclosures surrounded by sheer concrete walls?

And think about this: they had exposed 10,000V lines lining a pathway through which they planned to run tour groups in jeeps, with no human guides. Can you say "massive liability lawsuit when some moronic jack-ass gets out of the jeep and touches the wires?" This entire park, from conception to implementation, reeked of absolute idiocy. Any engineer who was involved in the design of this park would lose his license for repeated, flagrant violations of the Engineering Code of Ethics.

And about the overpopulation, in the book, it said the dinosaurs couldn't survive in the outside world, so the worst that could happen would be a billion-dollar inestment gone wrong. Of course, this is all going to be ignored if they're going to make a Jurassic Park IV.

Dino overpopulation actually would have been a good thing in a well-designed zoo. They could have charged enormous fees for big-game hunters to take a shot at bagging dinosaurs and culling the herd.

[lgot]

You could leave every other problem in place or even make it twice as bad, and it still would have been fine if the enclosures had been properly designed.

You will probally feel more annoyed then to know they are so bad in the design that : They thought dinos couldnt swim. There is some of the limits - sea among then - are just open because of that.

Well, they thought a 10,000 volt electric fence would be enough. And about the overpopulation, in the book, it said the dinosaurs couldn't survive in the outside world, so the worst that could happen would be a billion-dollar inestment gone wrong. Of course, this is all going to be ignored if they're going to make a Jurassic Park IV.

That is the problem of how stupid it was in the movie. Enough for what ? To kill the dino ??? To hurt it badly ? The main atraction of your park ? Your kids running then the T.Rex rushes against the fence and you have sparks and all the terror (oh yeah, in the book and film the T.Rex could run at 50 km/h, that was spetacular. Would you beat your heart calmly with this vision ?). If the T.Rex doesnt die, he would destroy the fence. If he dies you see your main attraction and all the smell of buring meat. That was smart, very smart.
And the overpopulation: In the book they say they would not survive and they would not reproduce. They Do both things, as you can read the epilogue which deals with rumours about a group of tall, two-feet lizards walking during the night of Costa Rica. (Those are the raptors that are not genetically created)
Of course,in the book, the worst that would happen ? You are aware that people only talked about money there ? The reason of the visit of the "specialists" are to please the japanase who have give money to the park production ? That worst thing was the nightmare of the park-creators to show the park was safe and rentable.

[lgot]

Not if it goes to zero volts during a power failure, which is precisely what happened. Even if Nedry hadn't screwed around with the computers, what if a transformer blew out and part of the grid went down? What kind of fucking idiot would design enclosures which require constant uninterruptible power in order to contain gigantic rampaging monsters? Particularly when there are perfectly workable low-tech, no-power solutions such as moats or sunken enclosures surrounded by sheer concrete walls?

Not to say, if a dino drop one of those nice huge trees around in that fence ? And to make that small portion to stop working ?
Actually, that happens in the book, they have fences portions not working and the park's dude having to fix it for the most different reasons ,from a big hadrassaurous jumping over it to the transformer blew up.
More you say, more you right of how plain and simple stupid the eletric fence as the only way to contain a unknow gigantic expensive animal is.

[Darth Wong]

I really hate that shit. It's one of the problems I have with the Aliens series. Ripley has become the Ian Malcolm of that franchise...

Anti-technology and anti-scientific sentiments are strewn throughout sci-fi, which is rather ironic until you realize how many sci-fi writers actually don't know dick about science.

You're right; the Aliens are an overblown threat. Yes, they kill people. But frankly, a lethal airborne virus would be far more terrifying than an alien, which you have a chance of seeing and shooting before it can "infect" you.

Aliens are cool, but they're not as scary as people think they are. Their successes come through horrible stupidity on the part of the humans.

• In Alien, they had no weapons.
• In Aliens, they fucked up royally. They used AP rounds when they had no reason to (did they think the aliens were wearing body armour?), and when they discovered their mistake, Lt. Gorman ordered them to disarm themselves rather than returning to the APC and re-arming. As Frost said, "what are we supposed to use, harsh language?" They didn't leave a single crewman on the ship in orbit, which means that if they lost their transport, they would be stranded (granted, they had the ability to remote-pilot the second dropship down, but only the android knew how to do that; what if he gets hit?). And finally, the dropship sat in an unsecured area for hours with its landing platform open and no one guarding the entrance. What kind of numb-skulls were running this operation?
• In Alien3, they had no weapons.
• I didn't watch Alien4. I was so disgusted by Alien3 that I stopped watching

In the end, the Alien series cleverly makes it seem as if technology is useless against Angry Nature, when an objective analysis leads to the conclusion that they were just dumb-fucks who deserved what they got, and that intelligent military personnel would have easily gotten the job done with the same weapons.

[Gil Hamilton]

I did have the misfortune of watching Alien: Resurrection and it went like this.

• Humans had weapons, including grenades, but everyone except for the mercenaries were dumbfucks that immediately abandoned ship at the first sign that the aliens were loose. The exception to this was when the Captain of the ship they were on knew an alien was in one of the escape pods and instead of trying to shoot it, he rolled a grenade into it and closed the door.

There were things that you would have loved, Mike. Like the ship they were on, when it encounters a serious problem and is cut off with central command, automatically turns around and returns to Earth. This can't be overridden without several command codes. The ship also doesn't have a way to manually shut it down, they ended up getting enough access to the ship to force it to slam into Africa (nevermind aiming for the moon where there are no people) and abandoning ship.
Also, they knew that the aliens had dangerously powerful acid, but failed to put them in a cage that could withstand it should the aliens kill one of their sisters in order to cause her blood to melt a hole through the floor. Not that they stored all the aliens in one cage, rather than in individual cages to prevent them from doing this. Plus, the head evil scientist made the evil scientist mistake of delibrately tormenting them, which provoked them to escape in the first place.
Next, when they did escape, what was the crews first reaction? If you guessed open up the weapons locker that they were shown to have, organize into search teams and kill the alien, you are wrong. They immediately abandoned ship.
Oh, and lets not forget the "utlimate" Alien/Ripley hybrid that they made through advanced cloning techniques.

Oh, and Sigorney Weaver said recently on Late Night with Conan O'Brien that Ridley Scott was negotiating with her a 5th Aliens movie. Have a nice day.

[Antediluvian]

Catch Johnathan Frakes narrating "Beyond Belief"? It's a show that deals with the "paranormal" and the "supernatural" (i.e. generally pseudoscience). It deals with spirit possessions, ghostwriting, ghost pains, and recycled urban legends. Sure, some of them are shown to be made up, but none of the "supernatural" elements are investigated in detail or through any sort of extensive/scientific analysis. Anyone else find it fitting that the host of a show with such calibre material is a former Star Trek lead actor?

I could've sworn that show was canceled a while back.

[Galvatron]

In the end, the Alien series cleverly makes it seem as if technology is useless against Angry Nature, when an objective analysis leads to the conclusion that they were just dumb-fucks who deserved what they got, and that intelligent military personnel would have easily gotten the job done with the same weapons.

Especially the sentry guns!

[Darth Wong]

Here's another tactical question: why didn't the Marines just double-time it to high ground, and forget about holing up in the damned base?

Basic principle of asymmetrical warfare: a technologically superior combatant prefers to fight over open terrain. A technologically inferior combatant prefers to fight in difficult terrain (eg- urban, forested, mountainous, etc).

The Colonial Marines are a technologically superior combatant. They have several types of ranged weapons. The Aliens are a technologically inferior combatant. They have claws and teeth: no ranged weapons at all. Therefore, the cramped corridors of the base barracks is the absolute worst possible place that the Marines could have chosen to make their stand.

It's civilian-built, which means it's flimsy by military standards. They are unfamiliar with the layout, while the Aliens have already been there, so they know it well. It has tunnels, ducts, crawlspaces, etc. All perfect for ugly close-quarters combat, where the tactical advantage of ranged weapons is drastically reduced. So why fight there?

It's simple: you take your squad. You grab your sentry guns and any remaining pulse rifles, flamethrowers, and ammo. You double-time directly away from the base, toward the nearest defensible position (preferably on high ground). Now, the only way for the Aliens to approach you is over open ground, where you hold a decisive advantage.

You have 4 sentry guns with 500 rounds apiece, for 2000 total rounds. You have several hundred more rounds in the pulse rifles. You can set up a four-corner perimeter with the sentry guns, using motion sensors to pick up alien activity. The sentry guns start blasting away at attacking Aliens from 500 metres away. Your troopers supplement their fire with semi-automatic sniper activity. No alien gets within 100 metres of your camp. Every alien warrior dies.

You already know how many there are (from the colonist count), so you can count corpses afterwards and estimate how many remain inside the reactor complex. After wiping out the vast majority of the enemy's forces in this manner, you move in, secure the area around the base transmitter, and have your android remote-pilot the second dropship in for evac. It is highly unlikely that your squad would suffer a single casualty in this scenario (after all the casualties from the scouting mission inside the reactor building getting FUBAR, of course).

[Akm72]

why didn't the Marines just double-time it to high ground

It's not even necessary to double-time it? There are plenty of apparently intact civilian vehicles back at the colony.

...the nearest defensible position (preferably on high ground). Now, the only way for the Aliens to approach you is over open ground, where you hold a decisive advantage.

I'm not sure it would be that easy to find a defensible position on that planet. The terrain appears to be carved into a complex maze of tight/steep-sided winding gullies and rock formations. You also have to deal with the almost continuous storms and resulting poor visibility.
It's not clear that it would be that much better than being in the base.

My solution would be to go back to the colony, load up a couple of the abandoned vehicles with as much fuel and food as possible, and get as far away from the Alien nest as possible.

[Darth Wong]

It's not even necessary to double-time it? There are plenty of apparently intact civilian vehicles back at the colony.

True.

I'm not sure it would be that easy to find a defensible position on that planet. The terrain appears to be carved into a complex maze of tight/steep-sided winding gullies and rock formations. You also have to deal with the almost continuous storms and resulting poor visibility.
It's not clear that it would be that much better than being in the base.

It was continuously windy and dark, but visibility was actually not that bad. If these guys can't fight in rain, they can't possibly call themselves Marines. Moreover, they have those motion sensors, so they can pick up incoming hostiles quite easily, and I believe they also have nightsight/infrared in their helmets. As for the terrain, it wasn't that bad. They only need to find an elevated position, and they can pick off incoming hostiles at will. The availability of sporadic cover in rough terrain isn't worth much if the enemy can't take advantage of it with squad advance/suppression fire tactics, remember? These hostiles have to come all the way to melee range before they can inflict any damage whatsoever; it's not like fighting an enemy who has mortars and rifles.

My solution would be to go back to the colony, load up a couple of the abandoned vehicles with as much fuel and food as possible, and get as far away from the Alien nest as possible.

No rescue team will pick them up if they don't know where they are. They have to stay close to the base, which means they need to eliminate most of the Alien horde. Besides, the idea of a technologically superior enemy running from these mindless monsters is crazy; they needed to regroup, think logically, and devise a plan to exterminate the horde and accomplish their mission.

[TrailerParkJawa]

and I believe they also have nightsight/infrared in their helmets.

In the movie we saw that the aliens didnt show up on infrared. Which I think is bogus, but if true it wouldnt be any use to the Marines if they left the base. However, your point about the motion detectors remains true. They would know the aliens are coming.

No rescue team will pick them up if they don't know where they are.

Did we see how they talked to the ship in orbit? I would imagine they would have a way to talk to any incoming rescue vessels. Perphaps the equipment to do so, was damaged. I dont remember if there was any evidence either way.


There was an Aliens 4 ? When the heck did that come out?

[Akm72]

It was continuously windy and dark, but visibility was actually not that bad. If these guys can't fight in rain, they can't possibly call themselves Marines. Moreover, they have those motion sensors, so they can pick up incoming hostiles quite easily, and I believe they also have nightsight/infrared in their helmets.

Concur that Hicks and Hudson had small "IR visors" that could be pulled down over their right eyes. Though it's not clear how well they'd work in the rain.
Likewise a motion tracker 'might' not work too well with a lot of falling rain-drops around, though you'd hope that they could filter them out.
As to visibility, did we actually see what it was like away from the base at night during a storm? I've got the aliens DVD, so I can check this sometime.

As for the terrain, it wasn't that bad. They only need to find an elevated position, and they can pick off incoming hostiles at will. The availability of sporadic cover in rough terrain isn't worth much if the enemy can't take advantage of it with squad advance/suppression fire tactics, remember? These hostiles have to come all the way to melee range before they can inflict any damage whatsoever; it's not like fighting an enemy who has mortars and rifles.

I agree that if they could find an appropriate elevated position with good all-round visibility, they could easily hold off an alien attack, especially with the Sentry guns. But I still maintain that away from the areas where the colonists had cut roads through the terrain and flattened areas for the colony, it'd be tough to find a natural defensible position with only sporadic cover on all the approaches.

No rescue team will pick them up if they don't know where they are...

Fair comment, I was just assuming they'd have an appropriate radio to listen out for the rescue team, but that is a potential problem.

Besides, the idea of a technologically superior enemy running from these mindless monsters is crazy; they needed to regroup, think logically, and devise a plan to exterminate the horde and accomplish their mission.

Not that mindless, they did shut off the power after all! In fact that probably makes them tactically smarter than the Borg

[Akm72]

I've just a better idea; They could set of their defence on the Landing pad, a nice flat area with excellant all-round visibility. They could even park one of the vehicles in the middle to give them some shelter from the elements. When they realise the processor is going to blow, the communications tower is right next to them.

[Gil Hamilton]

Originally posted by TrailerParkJawa:
There was an Aliens 4 ? When the heck did that come out?

Alien: Resurrection. It was a horrible movie, but entertaining if you like human military folks being dumb in the face of killer alien monsters.

[Beowulf]

I still think the bad enclosures were the real problem. Even if the dinosaurs start reproducing out of control, so what? If they can't break out of their enclosures they can't do any harm, and there are many ways of dealing with zoo overpopulation. Similarly, even if some idiot sabotages the computer system, so what? If the enclosures are properly designed in the first place, it won't make any difference.

You could leave every other problem in place or even make it twice as bad, and it still would have been fine if the enclosures had been properly designed.

If the animals were repoducing too quickly, then, dinosaur skin handbags, anyone? Then there's also dinosaur meat, etc. etc.

[lgot]

If the animals were repoducing too quickly, then, dinosaur skin handbags, anyone? Then there's also dinosaur meat, etc. etc.

heh, the whole problem in the book is that they didnt even know they are reproducing because the computer program made to make the counting of the dinos was meant to only count the number expected of dinos to be found, IOW, if they expected 100 dinos, the computer would count only 100 even if he dected 200. And they would always find the exactly number of dinos , therefore making the assumption of no reproduction.

[Beowulf]

If the animals were repoducing too quickly, then, dinosaur skin handbags, anyone? Then there's also dinosaur meat, etc. etc.

heh, the whole problem in the book is that they didnt even know they are reproducing because the computer program made to make the counting of the dinos was meant to only count the number expected of dinos to be found, IOW, if they expected 100 dinos, the computer would count only 100 even if he dected 200. And they would always find the exactly number of dinos , therefore making the assumption of no reproduction.

Then the person who wrote the program was a dumbfuck who should be stood up against the wall and shot for the good of humanity. IF it stopped counting when it reached twice the number of expected animals, then it would be ok, and they would still have a limit on the animals to count to, to insure that that the computer took forever to finish the count, waiting for there to be another animal to count