Beating Down Philosophy

[HemlockGrey]

My friend has decided that the universe doesn't exist; something about it being infinite and all that. I tried pulling the Razor on him; no luck. I tried using the scientific method, no luck.

Question.

Is the universe really infinite?

[Raptor 597]

My friend has decided that the universe doesn't exist; something about it being infinite and all that. I tried pulling the Razor on him; no luck. I tried using the scientific method, no luck.

Question.

Is the universe really infinite?

I' not the expert, but theuniverse is limited of atoms on a cosmic scale. And will either cool off off and spread as is currently or hit the reverse.

[haas mark]

[Bill Clinton]
That depends on your definition of infinite...
[/Clinton]

It depends on whether you think infinity really exists...The thought that something with such a large expanse is almoxt inconceivable to some people. I, for one, think that there really can be no "ends" (as opposed to "end") of the universe...Where infinite means, reaching forever, then I say yes, it is infinite. HOWEVER, in the definition of infinite being, lasting forever, I really cannot say, nor do I care...on the other hand, if there were to be a great collapse anytime soon, well, then I would probably care.

[kheegster]

Your friends seems to be a bit out of it. But since he mentioned infinities, let him chew on this and see how he handles it:

Think of two points on the integer line, 0 and 1. Now add a geometric series starting with 1/2 and with a factor of 1/2. In other words, add up 1/2+1/4+1/8+1/16.... continuously and fit between those two points. It should be easy to see that when you fit the sum of this between the two points 1 and 0, you approach 1 but never reach it no matter how far you go down the series. So, there are is an infinity of points between 0 and 1, right?

Now, here's the rub...if you have TWO of these (eg if you duplicate this), then how many points are there in total? There were already an infinity of points in one of the sets, so clearly there must 2x infinity there! And what happens if you have 10 of these, or 5000, or 10^100000? What if you have an infinity of these points?

You didn't go into detail how your friend used infinity to get this bizarre conclusion, but these little conundrum should get him to see that infinities are far more elegant and subtle than most people think.

KG

[Darth Wong]

Your friend is a solipsist. I will repeat my 3 recommended rebuttals for solipsism, listed earlier:

1. "Science only describes the observable universe. It does not address the (silly) question of whether the observable universe is real. Therefore, it is logically self-consistent despite your puerile attacks".
2. "If your mind is all that exists, then I don't exist. So stop arguing with me."
3. "If nothing exists but the mind, then guns and bullets don't exist. So prove your argument by putting a gun in your mouth and pulling the trigger. If you're not willing to do so, then you're admitting that you think objective reality exists outside your mind."

[Nick]

My friend has decided that the universe doesn't exist; something about it being infinite and all that. I tried pulling the Razor on him; no luck. I tried using the scientific method, no luck.

Question.

Is the universe really infinite?

Verilon pegged it with the 'it depends on your definition of infinite', and Mike's three rebuttals are probably what you need to smack your friend over the head with.

However, to actually answer your question - almost certainly not.

It is bounded in the past - at the big bang (which is either a singularity, or the universe's equivalent of the South Pole).

It is bounded in size - it contains a finite amount of matter (or it would not be expanding the way it is)

It is possibly bounded in the future - if there is a sufficient amount of matter in the universe then, some time after heat death occurs, it will collapse again towards the big crunch (which, again, will either be a singularity, or the universe's equivalent of the North Pole).

Even if the big crunch doesn't happen, heat death (the smearing out of the universe into a relatively featureless pool of entropy) is basically inevitable - and while the universe might still technically be around, there won't be anything interesting going on.

But the time scales are such that they aren't a big issue for a race with grave questions about whether or not it will make it to see the next centruy.

[HemlockGrey]

Thanks all. Plenty of material for me to beat him down with.

[kojikun]

If by infinite he means "goes on forever" then ask him "does nothingness end? If so, then there must be something ending it which must go on forever, otherwise it would stop and you'd have nothing yet again"

[Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi]

Well you can't mix and match thoeries. One theory says that as the universe expands, the overall temperature decreases. However, if theu niverse was infinite, that would mean the average temperature would be absoulte zero, so under that theory, the universe has to be finite. And, if the universe came from a single point, and is infinite now, it must have expanded at an infinite rate. But, these are theories, and we can only make points about the observable universe.

And, isn't "multiple universes" an oxymoron?

[Bob McDob]

My friend has decided that the universe doesn't exist; something about it being infinite and all that. I tried pulling the Razor on him; no luck. I tried using the scientific method, no luck.

Question.

Is the universe really infinite?

I think the real question is "why the fuck do you care?"

[HemlockGrey]

I don't, really, but my friend thinks he is he next best thing after Socrates and I have an urge to beat him down.

[Nick]

Well you can't mix and match thoeries.

Of course you can - scientists do it all the time. If the combined theory makes the same (or better) predication than both of the original theories, but unifies them into a single consistent theory, then it is actually a better theory.

What do you think the search for a Theory of Everything is, if not an attempt to combine general relativity (which described the large-scale operation of gravity) with quantum mechanics (which describes everything else)?

But, these are theories, and we can only make points about the observable universe.

Yes, but these theories make predictions about the observable universe, and hence are testable (at least theoretically). The observable universe is quite clearly finite (in accordance with the theories), although it may not have any boundaries.

And, isn't "multiple universes" an oxymoron?

No. In this context, 'universe' does not mean "everything that exists" (well, it is more that the definition of 'exists' becomes arguable in this context). The term 'other universe' is used to posit the idea of "universes like our own, but inaccesible to us". Theories involving them have a tendency to tread on rather dubious ground with respect to Occam's Razor. (Postulating an infinite number of universes in order to explain the single one we can see is definitely a questionable approach)

[Archaic`]

No. In this context, 'universe' does not mean "everything that exists" (well, it is more that the definition of 'exists' becomes arguable in this context). The term 'other universe' is used to posit the idea of "universes like our own, but inaccesible to us". Theories involving them have a tendency to tread on rather dubious ground with respect to Occam's Razor. (Postulating an infinite number of universes in order to explain the single one we can see is definitely a questionable approach)

Does that include M theory?

[Nick]

No. In this context, 'universe' does not mean "everything that exists" (well, it is more that the definition of 'exists' becomes arguable in this context). The term 'other universe' is used to posit the idea of "universes like our own, but inaccesible to us". Theories involving them have a tendency to tread on rather dubious ground with respect to Occam's Razor. (Postulating an infinite number of universes in order to explain the single one we can see is definitely a questionable approach)

Does that include M theory?

I don't know enough about M-theory to comment on it directly, but multiple universe theories aren't necessarily violations of Occam's Razor. After all, if the only theory we've got that matches the observations involves multiple universes, then multiple universes it is.

But postulating an infinite number of unobservable entities to explain a single observable one definitely deserves close scrutiny (AFAIK, M-theory does NOT do this).

[weemadando]

My friend has decided that the universe doesn't exist; something about it being infinite and all that. I tried pulling the Razor on him; no luck. I tried using the scientific method, no luck.

Question.

Is the universe really infinite?

I remember talking about infinity theory with some friends while drunk... The mix of people: 2 engineers, 2 physicists, 1 maths, 3 Arts and 1 Fine Arts.

Results: Everyone got far too drunk and it was determined that though the universe may not be infinite the human mind is incapable of comprehending such large figures that it simply says to itself: "Yup, that there's an infinite universe". And also that no matter how much beer you buy it will always be gone within the first hour meaning that everyone has to move on to goonbags.

[salm]

My friend has decided that the universe doesn't exist; something about it being infinite and all that. I tried pulling the Razor on him; no luck. I tried using the scientific method, no luck.

Question.

Is the universe really infinite?

I remember talking about infinity theory with some friends while drunk... The mix of people: 2 engineers, 2 physicists, 1 maths, 3 Arts and 1 Fine Arts.

Results: Everyone got far too drunk and it was determined that though the universe may not be infinite the human mind is incapable of comprehending such large figures that it simply says to itself: "Yup, that there's an infinite universe". And also that no matter how much beer you buy it will always be gone within the first hour meaning that everyone has to move on to goonbags.

so if we say that beer is our universe, we can say that the universe is finite.

[EmperorChrostas the Cruel]

Why are you even arguing with this fool? Slap his face, and tell him what he just happened to THINK he experienced, wasn't real, so he shouldn't get upset with you. Then hit him MUCH harder, and ask him how convincing this halucination is. Repeat this agrument, until he concedes, or no longer wishes to argue.Note, every time you hurt him, say, "pretty convincing for an illusion, eh?"

A better, less stressful way to deal with him, is to get up, and leave, when the subject comes up, or have him leave, depending on where you are. Just tell him he is full of shit, and the halucination of you doesn't like it when he acts this way, and now that he knows this halucination doesn't like this, acting this way is a DELIBERATE attempt to offend you.

Or you can spit on him, and say you find his nonsence offencive, and every time he deliberatly act to provoke you, you will respond like this, ect, ect..... Be creative, Pavlov was right, negative reinforcment is a very effective teaching method.