American Indian Mascots

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Do you think sports teams should stop using American Indian mascots?

Yes
6
19%
No
26
81%
 
Total votes: 32

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Durandal
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American Indian Mascots

Post by Durandal »

We just watched a video in sociology today about sports teams' use of American Indian mascots and the controversy that resulted.

So, do you think that sports teams should stop using American Indians as mascots like Chief Illiniwek of the University of Illinois or the Atlanta Braves' cartoonish, buck-toothed, big-nosed Indian mascot?

For my response, I'll post the questionnaire we got at the end of the flick.
1. Is this a social problem? How many people are affected? Does it contradict important values and norms in our society? Who are the “claimsmakers”?

Yes, this is a social problem. There are a large number of people affected, namely the American Indian population. “Values and norms” in our society are subjectively defined. Some people have different values than others. However, Chief Illiniwek’s presence does not appear to violate the norms and values of the majority, because the majority is white. Using this reasoning, it does not qualify as a social problem. This is why the definition of a social problem given is inherently weak and subjective. The “claimsmakers” are American Indians.

2. What do you think is the strongest argument for keeping Chief Illiniwek as the mascot for the University of Illinois?

There isn’t one. All the arguments for keeping Chief Illiniwek as the mascot are blatant logical fallacies, appallingly inconsistent and simply reprehensible from a moral standpoint. The argument that Chief Illiniwek is actually respectful to American Indian culture is plainly ludicrous. Even if that was the real intent behind the mascot – which it isn’t – and not a poorly though-out defense, it begs the question, “How good a job of ‘respecting’ American Indians are these people doing if all the American Indians find their gestures of ‘respect’ offensive?” Wouldn’t expressed outrage at a symbol of “respect” be sufficient cause to reevaluate the perceptions of what the symbol means? It’s absolutely stunning that people who possess doctoral degrees can’t figure this out.

The argument that “minority rights aren’t always right” is simply bizarre. What conditions allow the minority’s right to be treated with respect to be removed? When the majority derives enjoyment from berating and demeaning the majority? Again, these are the kinds of people that graduate from one of the most prestigious universities in the country? Narrow-minded white people with absolutely no empathic capabilities possessing an eerily fetish-like attachment to an athletic mascot?
Most of the other arguments are simply appeals to tradition, which is a logical fallacy. A practice’s traditional value does not lend validity to that practice.

The only objectively valid argument is that alumni contributions to the university may drop due to alumni attachment to an obviously racist mascot, and money problems are never a valid argument in terms of the morals of a situation. If the country was primarily concerned with economics over basic ethics and moral practices, slavery would never have been abolished.

3. What do you think is the strongest argument for removing Chief Illiniwek as the mascot for the University of Illinois?

How would Catholics feel if some sports team paraded around a priest as a mascot and had him perform bastardized Catholic rituals, perhaps performing exorcisms or maybe burning condoms? No doubt the Catholic authorities in the United States would immediately speak out against such a sacrilege. Similarly doubtless, the team would acquiesce to demands to remove such a mascot. Why? Because Catholics and Christians are the majority, and the majority hardly ever understands the plight of the minority. Ignorance of the way this democracy works has pervaded to such an extent that many of the majority actually think that it’s acceptable to take others’ rights away for no other reason than the dictates of the majority’s whim! Obviously, most have skipped over the “inalienable” part about human rights, or they just pretend that it doesn’t exist. This brand of “might makes right” reasoning never leads to constructive results.

4. Do you think there is a solution to this social problem? Is there any possibility for a compromise?

Yes, there is possibility for a compromise. If the University of Illinois continues to insist on keeping their little cult object of Chief Illiniwek, stop having blonde-haired, blue-eyed white guys representing him. If University of Illinois alumni or staff really care about paying respect to American Indians, they could at least take the time to find an American Indian student willing to portray Chief Illiniwek by using authentic American Indian dances and rituals instead of an ignorant white kid who makes up dances and rituals based purely upon stereotypes.

The bottom line, however, is that compromise is not needed here. What is needed is understanding and empathy. The people supporting Chief Illiniwek are simply wrong, from a moral standpoint. American Indians are right to try and get the him removed. The best solution would be for the University of Illinois to detach themselves from their quasi-masturbatory obsession with Chief Illiniwek, admit that they are actively supporting the practice of minority stereotyping, and move on.
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Post by HemlockGrey »

...?

Oh no! A sports team has an Indian mascot! We're offending the minorities! Man your battlestations! Load the politically-correct torpedoes!

Fire one! Fire two! Take that, you insenstive politically incorrect BASTARDS!


....seriously, though...

If the Indians don't like him, don't watch the fucking games. It's a free country.
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Post by C.S.Strowbridge »

I think it depends on how respectful they are. It's different for a cartoon charicture instead of a realistic image. I have no problem with the Chicago Blackhawks, but I don't pay attention to baseball and I've never heard of the other team mentioned.

Then again, I love the Fighting Whites.

http://www.fightingwhites.org/

Every thang's gonna be all white.

It's so cheesy I get constipated just thinking about it.
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Post by Raoul Duke, Jr. »

What you didn't specify in your questionnaire answer is how the Native American population is affected by the use of these mascots. Are Native Americans being forcibly abducted and made to play baseball against their will? Has a Native American been lashed to a flag and flown at a Major League game? Have big-nosed buck-toothed grinning young Native American men been made the center of adulating Braves fans? What real and perceptible harm has been done? Or are we seeing Quebecers of a different stripe?
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Post by Joe »

Durandal; I think it's the Cleveland Indians that you're thinking of that have the big nosed mascot. The Braves mascot is/was (I don't recall whether they still have it or not) more tasteful.

I don't think it's a bad thing, because in most cases the mascots aren't use to offend Indians, but to honor their warrior spirit.
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Post by Wicked Pilot »

Raoul Duke, Jr. wrote:What you didn't specify in your questionnaire answer is how the Native American population is affected by the use of these mascots.
They're being offended. That in itself would not be worth the controversy, it's the fact that there aren't any teams out offending other races with their mascots. Do you think people would tolerate a New York Niggers, Georgia Greasers or a Kansas City Kikes. Yet people tolerate the Washington Redskins. I'm not a Native American so I can't speak from experience, but I imagine that is probably the reason behind the issue.
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Post by Durandal »

Durandal; I think it's the Cleveland Indians that you're thinking of that have the big nosed mascot. The Braves mascot is/was (I don't recall whether they still have it or not) more tasteful.
Hm ... it probably is.

Regardless of what these mascots' intentions are, they are clearly offending American Indians, who are in a better position to decide what is or is not "respectful" to their culture. If these teams really want to honor them, leave them the fuck alone or try to adopt a more authentic approach.

I seriously don't understand why it's so much to ask that a group of people be treated with dignity. I wouldn't want a team called the "New York Dagos" to do a make-believe mob-hit at every halftime. It's insulting.

I will grant that the MLB is a private organization, and it has no obligation to acquiesce to the demands of American Indians, save for simple decency. They have no legal compulsion to do so, just as the KKK has no legal compulsion to shut their mouths, nor should they.

The University of Illinois, however, is a public, government-funded institution. The case could be brought to court on the grounds that tax dollars are being funneled to support racial stereotypes.
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Post by Yogi »

Technically, wouldn't they have to pay royalties to the various tribes in order to use their likeness?
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Oh great not this crap again.....

Post by MKSheppard »

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DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE

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my cold dead body!

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Post by Damaramu »

C.S.Strowbridge wrote:Then again, I love the Fighting Whites.

http://www.fightingwhites.org/

Every thang's gonna be all white.

It's so cheesy I get constipated just thinking about it.
Oh man...don't let any white supremacists see that stuff.... :roll:
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Post by HemlockGrey »

Uh-oh.

The Philedephia Phillies mascot is offensive to little green men from Mars. Quick! Burn the mascot!
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Post by Alyeska »

I remember when a native american team changed their school mascot to a middle aged white man and they were called "The Fighting Whities". That insulted quite a few white people and they were demanding the school change their mascot.
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Post by Howedar »

Really? All I heard was laughs. I'm totally for the Fighting Whites.
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Post by Alyeska »

Agreed, I love the name to. Its kinda fitting. Seems the anger some people had has warn off. Though I saw one person say this about it.
Paul wrote:
This is so cool! My high school degraded the falcon by adopting it as a mascot. Then my college degraded the bear by using it as a mascot. I wish I could have been called a 'Fighting Whitie.' Then I'd only be degrading myself and my family... which is something I do anyway.
*shudder*
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Post by Darth Wong »

Raoul Duke, Jr. wrote:What you didn't specify in your questionnaire answer is how the Native American population is affected by the use of these mascots. Are Native Americans being forcibly abducted and made to play baseball against their will? Has a Native American been lashed to a flag and flown at a Major League game? Have big-nosed buck-toothed grinning young Native American men been made the center of adulating Braves fans? What real and perceptible harm has been done? Or are we seeing Quebecers of a different stripe?
If the "fighting whites" had a chain-smoking, drunk white guy in his underwear standing outside a trailer screaming obscenities at people as its mascot, would that be offensive?
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Post by Wicked Pilot »

Darth Wong wrote:If the "fighting whites" had a chain-smoking, drunk white guy in his underwear standing outside a trailer screaming obscenities at people as its mascot, would that be offensive?
How dare you say that! My Uncle Bob is not a mascot!
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Post by salm »

Darth Wong wrote:
Raoul Duke, Jr. wrote:What you didn't specify in your questionnaire answer is how the Native American population is affected by the use of these mascots. Are Native Americans being forcibly abducted and made to play baseball against their will? Has a Native American been lashed to a flag and flown at a Major League game? Have big-nosed buck-toothed grinning young Native American men been made the center of adulating Braves fans? What real and perceptible harm has been done? Or are we seeing Quebecers of a different stripe?
If the "fighting whites" had a chain-smoking, drunk white guy in his underwear standing outside a trailer screaming obscenities at people as its mascot, would that be offensive?
no, that would be cool!
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Post by Howedar »

Darth Wong wrote:
Raoul Duke, Jr. wrote:What you didn't specify in your questionnaire answer is how the Native American population is affected by the use of these mascots. Are Native Americans being forcibly abducted and made to play baseball against their will? Has a Native American been lashed to a flag and flown at a Major League game? Have big-nosed buck-toothed grinning young Native American men been made the center of adulating Braves fans? What real and perceptible harm has been done? Or are we seeing Quebecers of a different stripe?
If the "fighting whites" had a chain-smoking, drunk white guy in his underwear standing outside a trailer screaming obscenities at people as its mascot, would that be offensive?
I wouldn't find it so.
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Post by TrailerParkJawa »

If the "fighting whites" had a chain-smoking, drunk white guy in his underwear standing outside a trailer screaming obscenities at people as its mascot, would that be offensive?
I think that would be funny, but probably not a good choice for a mascot.

To me is seems there is an intangible line where a name becomes offensive and when its honorific. I dont hear any Indian tribes being upset over the Army's naming of helicopters. But I can understand why they might be offended at the Tomahawk chop.
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Post by C.S.Strowbridge »

Darth Wong wrote:If the "fighting whites" had a chain-smoking, drunk white guy in his underwear standing outside a trailer screaming obscenities at people as its mascot, would that be offensive?
No, just accurate.

Like I said before, it depends on Indians are shown with each specific mascot / team.
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Post by C.S.Strowbridge »

I would like to point out that this thread has clearly shown that white men are too clueless to offend. Which is probably why we rule the world! Mwu ha ha.
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Post by Master of Ossus »

I think that it is quite possible to have "respectful" Native American mascots for professional sports teams. Having said that, things like the Cleveland Indians mascot have got to go.

On a humorous but poignant note, the Simpsons had a float with the Cleveland mascot to celebrate "the people who taught us to celebrate Thanksgiving." The paper for the float "was made entirely from broken treaties."
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Post by Joe »

FSU, for example. As much as I hate the Criminoles, I'll admit that their use of the Seminoles for a mascot is tasteful.
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Post by Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi »

TrailerParkJawa wrote:
If the "fighting whites" had a chain-smoking, drunk white guy in his underwear standing outside a trailer screaming obscenities at people as its mascot, would that be offensive?
I think that would be funny, but probably not a good choice for a mascot.

To me is seems there is an intangible line where a name becomes offensive and when its honorific. I dont hear any Indian tribes being upset over the Army's naming of helicopters. But I can understand why they might be offended at the Tomahawk chop.
Well, you probably couldn't have a "Fighting Whites". If you depict a minority, you're accused of negative stereotyping. If you have a white mascot, you're accused of for a different reason.

The only solution is to name your team after an animal. But then you'll have the animal rights wackos on your case. Then, we'll be banning names like the Pittsburgh Steelers because it promotes crime, even if the name "Steelers" refers to the stell mills in the city. None of that matters! It feelings that count (Just like that student that complained about "niggardly").

Then, the city of Pittsburgh will have to rename the Pirates, because that name is offensive to the "pirate community".

As for the main question, if the mascot is "respectful", it shouldn't be banned. Of course, in today's society, "Tasteful Indian Mascot" is an oxymoron.

Some of the people who made such mascots say that Indians are associated with qualities like bravery, but such a thing doesn't come through when your mascot is all goofy.
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Post by Steve »

I feel ill. I'm in agreement with Shep, the Redskins logo is just too cool, and my dad raised me as a 'Skins fan (of course, my main loyalties are to the home teams for this area, namely the Bucs and Jags).

Of course, you could probably call the Redskins the "Gatorskins" these days and it'd be damned accurate. :twisted:
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