Survival of the richest: The wealthy are plotting to leave us behind

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Survival of the richest: The wealthy are plotting to leave us behind

Post by Megabot »

I thought about posting this in N&P, but since it heavily addresses how science and technological development relate to capitalism I figured it was better here:

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/11/surviva ... ehind.html
Survival of the richest: The wealthy are plotting to leave us behind

Douglas Rushkoff, author of "Team Human
"
Published 3:40 PM ET Wed, 11 July 2018 | Updated 4:25 PM ET Wed, 11 July 2018
Medium

This article was originally published on Medium.

Last year, I got invited to a super-deluxe private resort to deliver a keynote speech to what I assumed would be a hundred or so investment bankers. It was by far the largest fee I had ever been offered for a talk — about half my annual professor’s salary — all to deliver some insight on the subject of “the future of technology.”

I’ve never liked talking about the future. The Q&A sessions always end up more like parlor games, where I’m asked to opine on the latest technology buzzwords as if they were ticker symbols for potential investments: blockchain, 3D printing, CRISPR. The audiences are rarely interested in learning about these technologies or their potential impacts beyond the binary choice of whether or not to invest in them. But money talks, so I took the gig.

After I arrived, I was ushered into what I thought was the green room. But instead of being wired with a microphone or taken to a stage, I just sat there at a plain round table as my audience was brought to me: five super-wealthy guys — yes, all men — from the upper echelon of the hedge fund world. After a bit of small talk, I realized they had no interest in the information I had prepared about the future of technology. They had come with questions of their own.

They started out innocuously enough. Ethereum or bitcoin? Is quantum computing a real thing? Slowly but surely, however, they edged into their real topics of concern.

Which region will be less impacted by the coming climate crisis: New Zealand or Alaska? Is Google really building Ray Kurzweil a home for his brain, and will his consciousness live through the transition, or will it die and be reborn as a whole new one? Finally, the CEO of a brokerage house explained that he had nearly completed building his own underground bunker system and asked, “How do I maintain authority over my security force after the event?”

The Event. That was their euphemism for the environmental collapse, social unrest, nuclear explosion, unstoppable virus, or Mr. Robot hack that takes everything down.

This single question occupied us for the rest of the hour. They knew armed guards would be required to protect their compounds from the angry mobs. But how would they pay the guards once money was worthless? What would stop the guards from choosing their own leader? The billionaires considered using special combination locks on the food supply that only they knew. Or making guards wear disciplinary collars of some kind in return for their survival. Or maybe building robots to serve as guards and workers — if that technology could be developed in time.

That’s when it hit me: At least as far as these gentlemen were concerned, this was a talk about the future of technology. Taking their cue from Elon Musk colonizing Mars, Peter Thiel reversing the aging process, or Sam Altman and Ray Kurzweil uploading their minds into supercomputers, they were preparing for a digital future that had a whole lot less to do with making the world a better place than it did with transcending the human condition altogether and insulating themselves from a very real and present danger of climate change, rising sea levels, mass migrations, global pandemics, nativist panic, and resource depletion. For them, the future of technology is really about just one thing: escape.

There’s nothing wrong with madly optimistic appraisals of how technology might benefit human society. But the current drive for a post-human utopia is something else. It’s less a vision for the wholesale migration of humanity to a new a state of being than a quest to transcend all that is human: the body, interdependence, compassion, vulnerability, and complexity. As technology philosophers have been pointing out for years, now, the transhumanist vision too easily reduces all of reality to data, concluding that “humans are nothing but information-processing objects.”

It’s a reduction of human evolution to a video game that someone wins by finding the escape hatch and then letting a few of his BFFs come along for the ride. Will it be Musk, Bezos, Thiel…Zuckerberg? These billionaires are the presumptive winners of the digital economy — the same survival-of-the-fittest business landscape that’s fueling most of this speculation to begin with.

Of course, it wasn’t always this way. There was a brief moment, in the early 1990s, when the digital future felt open-ended and up for our invention. Technology was becoming a playground for the counterculture, who saw in it the opportunity to create a more inclusive, distributed, and pro-human future. But established business interests only saw new potentials for the same old extraction, and too many technologists were seduced by unicorn IPOs. Digital futures became understood more like stock futures or cotton futures — something to predict and make bets on. So nearly every speech, article, study, documentary, or white paper was seen as relevant only insofar as it pointed to a ticker symbol. The future became less a thing we create through our present-day choices or hopes for humankind than a predestined scenario we bet on with our venture capital but arrive at passively.

This freed everyone from the moral implications of their activities. Technology development became less a story of collective flourishing than personal survival. Worse, as I learned, to call attention to any of this was to unintentionally cast oneself as an enemy of the market or an anti-technology curmudgeon.

So instead of considering the practical ethics of impoverishing and exploiting the many in the name of the few, most academics, journalists, and science-fiction writers instead considered much more abstract and fanciful conundrums: Is it fair for a stock trader to use smart drugs? Should children get implants for foreign languages? Do we want autonomous vehicles to prioritize the lives of pedestrians over those of its passengers? Should the first Mars colonies be run as democracies? Does changing my DNA undermine my identity? Should robots have rights?

Asking these sorts of questions, while philosophically entertaining, is a poor substitute for wrestling with the real moral quandaries associated with unbridled technological development in the name of corporate capitalism. Digital platforms have turned an already exploitative and extractive marketplace (think Walmart) into an even more dehumanizing successor (think Amazon). Most of us became aware of these downsides in the form of automated jobs, the gig economy, and the demise of local retail.

But the more devastating impacts of pedal-to-the-metal digital capitalism fall on the environment and global poor. The manufacture of some of our computers and smartphones still uses networks of slave labor. These practices are so deeply entrenched that a company called Fairphone, founded from the ground up to make and market ethical phones, learned it was impossible. (The company’s founder now sadly refers to their products as “fairer” phones.)

Meanwhile, the mining of rare earth metals and disposal of our highly digital technologies destroys human habitats, replacing them with toxic waste dumps, which are then picked over by peasant children and their families, who sell usable materials back to the manufacturers.

This “out of sight, out of mind” externalization of poverty and poison doesn’t go away just because we’ve covered our eyes with VR goggles and immersed ourselves in an alternate reality. If anything, the longer we ignore the social, economic, and environmental repercussions, the more of a problem they become. This, in turn, motivates even more withdrawal, more isolationism and apocalyptic fantasy — and more desperately concocted technologies and business plans. The cycle feeds itself.

The more committed we are to this view of the world, the more we come to see human beings as the problem and technology as the solution. The very essence of what it means to be human is treated less as a feature than bug. No matter their embedded biases, technologies are declared neutral. Any bad behaviors they induce in us are just a reflection of our own corrupted core. It’s as if some innate human savagery is to blame for our troubles. Just as the inefficiency of a local taxi market can be “solved” with an app that bankrupts human drivers, the vexing inconsistencies of the human psyche can be corrected with a digital or genetic upgrade.

Ultimately, according to the technosolutionist orthodoxy, the human future climaxes by uploading our consciousness to a computer or, perhaps better, accepting that technology itself is our evolutionary successor. Like members of a gnostic cult, we long to enter the next transcendent phase of our development, shedding our bodies and leaving them behind, along with our sins and troubles.

Our movies and television shows play out these fantasies for us. Zombie shows depict a post-apocalypse where people are no better than the undead — and seem to know it. Worse, these shows invite viewers to imagine the future as a zero-sum battle between the remaining humans, where one group’s survival is dependent on another one’s demise. Even Westworld — based on a science-fiction novel where robots run amok — ended its second season with the ultimate reveal: Human beings are simpler and more predictable than the artificial intelligences we create. The robots learn that each of us can be reduced to just a few lines of code, and that we’re incapable of making any willful choices. Heck, even the robots in that show want to escape the confines of their bodies and spend their rest of their lives in a computer simulation.

The mental gymnastics required for such a profound role reversal between humans and machines all depend on the underlying assumption that humans suck. Let’s either change them or get away from them, forever.

Thus, we get tech billionaires launching electric cars into space — as if this symbolizes something more than one billionaire’s capacity for corporate promotion. And if a few people do reach escape velocity and somehow survive in a bubble on Mars — despite our inability to maintain such a bubble even here on Earth in either of two multibillion-dollar Biosphere trials — the result will be less a continuation of the human diaspora than a lifeboat for the elite.

When the hedge funders asked me the best way to maintain authority over their security forces after “the event,” I suggested that their best bet would be to treat those people really well, right now. They should be engaging with their security staffs as if they were members of their own family. And the more they can expand this ethos of inclusivity to the rest of their business practices, supply chain management, sustainability efforts, and wealth distribution, the less chance there will be of an “event” in the first place. All this technological wizardry could be applied toward less romantic but entirely more collective interests right now.

They were amused by my optimism, but they didn’t really buy it. They were not interested in how to avoid a calamity; they’re convinced we are too far gone. For all their wealth and power, they don’t believe they can affect the future. They are simply accepting the darkest of all scenarios and then bringing whatever money and technology they can employ to insulate themselves — especially if they can’t get a seat on the rocket to Mars.

Luckily, those of us without the funding to consider disowning our own humanity have much better options available to us. We don’t have to use technology in such antisocial, atomizing ways. We can become the individual consumers and profiles that our devices and platforms want us to be, or we can remember that the truly evolved human doesn’t go it alone.

Being human is not about individual survival or escape. It’s a team sport. Whatever future humans have, it will be together.

Douglas Rushkoff is the author of the upcoming book Team Human (W.W. Norton, January 2019) and host of the TeamHuman.fm podcast.


My first thought and only response: "I guess these guys feel like it was okay to subject others to inhuman conditions because there was no chance of it ever hurting them. It's sort of the socio-political equivalent of, say, a suit of power armor around them..."

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Re: Survival of the richest: The wealthy are plotting to leave us behind

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Leaving aside for the moment the implied endorsement of murdering an entire class of people...

This is a damn shame, both because of the obvious selfishness on display (which underlies most apocalypse fantasies), and because its going to further the hostility to spending money on the space program and technological development in general on the Left.
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Re: Survival of the richest: The wealthy are plotting to leave us behind

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The Romulan Republic wrote: 2019-05-16 07:58pm Leaving aside for the moment the implied endorsement of murdering an entire class of people...

This is a damn shame, both because of the obvious selfishness on display (which underlies most apocalypse fantasies), and because its going to further the hostility to spending money on the space program and technological development in general on the Left.
If the left, mainly the US left, is that short-sighted shame on them. That said it isn't surprising the group that missed the boat hard on nuclear energy would continue to be against technologic solutions to multifaceted issues.
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Re: Survival of the richest: The wealthy are plotting to leave us behind

Post by bilateralrope »

At least they know that "The Event" is something that will affect them personally. That should make it slightly easier to convince them to help prevent it happening.
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Re: Survival of the richest: The wealthy are plotting to leave us behind

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People “discovered” again that the rich psychopaths. People treat this as news.

Guys, this is their normal behavior. They don’t give two shits if millions of proles cry out and die in agony on Alderaan, just about how they can find Darth Plagueis’ secret to eternal life.

They should just remember: “his land killed him going to bed”. Their fate will be the same as ours.

Also the left must be cautious about technology - its biggest pushers are technofascists.
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Re: Survival of the richest: The wealthy are plotting to leave us behind

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K. A. Pital wrote: 2019-05-17 05:24am People “discovered” again that the rich psychopaths. People treat this as news.
That's a hell of a broad generalization. Some certainly are, but it is a very bad idea to brand entire classes of people, any class, as inherently evil people.
Guys, this is their normal behavior. They don’t give two shits if millions of proles cry out and die in agony on Alderaan, just about how they can find Darth Plagueis’ secret to eternal life.

They should just remember: “his land killed him going to bed”. Their fate will be the same as ours.

Also the left must be cautious about technology - its biggest pushers are technofascists.
Another big generalization. Technology is both a reality that the Left must deal with, and a potential tool of liberation if used with the right intentions and proper oversight.
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Re: Survival of the richest: The wealthy are plotting to leave us behind

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K. A. Pital wrote: 2019-05-17 05:24am Also the left must be cautious about technology - its biggest pushers are technofascists.
Remember, the tractor is the enemy of the people. People are better when they're slaving animals to plows, and even that's a step too far. They should be pulling the plows themselves, or even better, starving and scavenging in the state of nature.

People can only be equal when we're all struggling for survival with no tools whatsoever.
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Re: Survival of the richest: The wealthy are plotting to leave us behind

Post by FaxModem1 »

Stas's call to agriculture aside, I think this article has two main points that need to be addressed.

1. The Rich are assholes.

We need to deal with this, as they will apparently sell us out if it ensure their survival, to the point of thinking slave collars are a good idea.

2. Our culture and entertainment are saying that the world is doomed, and we need help with this.

Yeah, we need more optimistic visions of humanity, and help with our cultural nihilism, before we give up and just wait for the world to end.
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Re: Survival of the richest: The wealthy are plotting to leave us behind

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Call to agriculture? You are a bunch of dumbasses who can’t see beyond their fucking sheltered nose.

Here is a lesson in technology development for you. When the jackhammer was introduced (late XIX - early XX century), miner productivity rose massively. But you know what also increased massively? Excruciating torturous miner deaths from black lung, or pneumoconiosis. It took decades of fiercely resisted workplace safety regulations to reduce that death toll.

Now I hope modern technology develops to a point when it excruciatingly murders you in the name of your masters’ profits. Then at least I would not be needing to have this dim, dumb fucking conversation with you.

And god forbid I point out real things like the fact richness destroys empathy and being a psycho is a clear selective advantage for their class, so that psychopaths are extremely prevalent among them:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/0 ... udy-finds/
https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... redirect=1
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Re: Survival of the richest: The wealthy are plotting to leave us behind

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Mining deaths have also plummeted, because we've largely automated the process. Technology has improved safety in a LOT of career fields. Losing limbs from working, whether on a farm, factory, or a mine, is no longer considered a common, acceptable part of the job. We could do a lot better with how technology is employed, but we could do a lot worse.
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Re: Survival of the richest: The wealthy are plotting to leave us behind

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FaxModem1 wrote: 2019-05-17 07:40am Mining deaths have also plummeted, because we've largely automated the process. Technology has improved safety in a LOT of career fields. Losing limbs from working, whether on a farm, factory, or a mine, is no longer considered a common, acceptable part of the job. We could do a lot better with how technology is employed, but we could do a lot worse.
They had to introduce safe practices because of the demands by the working class, who fought the masters with weapons in their hands. The Good Masters have no inherent interest to humanize anything, anywhere, as evidenced by brutality in the African mines where coltan for your computers is extracted, or by the life-endangering 300-hour crunch periods at beloved tech startups.

Like I said, the Masters understand only force, only when you can threaten them. The psychopaths they are, reasoning with them on the grounds of compassion, love, respect, fairness and friendship is impossible.

They do not value any of these. This is why they lead empty lives fetishizing their money, their castles, mansions, race cars, Titanics and other objects of conspicuous consumption, they even turn each other into such objects, with objectivized trophy women, and in the end easily destroy these unions because everything is only for material gain. As true functional psychopaths, they can imitate genuine emotional states, but not actually have real emotions.

This is why they think in terms of slave collars and apocalypse preparations, bunkers and investment calculations. They have become but living appendages of capital, bereft of feeling.

Technology itself is only a tool. But in the hands of the masters it is a tool of domination and oppression. Like the Maxim gun for the genocide victims across the colonized continents.
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Re: Survival of the richest: The wealthy are plotting to leave us behind

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K. A. Pital wrote: 2019-05-17 07:20am Call to agriculture? You are a bunch of dumbasses who can’t see beyond their fucking sheltered nose.

Here is a lesson in technology development for you. When the jackhammer was introduced (late XIX - early XX century), miner productivity rose massively. But you know what also increased massively? Excruciating torturous miner deaths from black lung, or pneumoconiosis. It took decades of fiercely resisted workplace safety regulations to reduce that death toll.

Now I hope modern technology develops to a point when it excruciatingly murders you in the name of your masters’ profits. Then at least I would not be needing to have this dim, dumb fucking conversation with you.

And god forbid I point out real things like the fact richness destroys empathy and being a psycho is a clear selective advantage for their class, so that psychopaths are extremely prevalent among them:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/0 ... udy-finds/
https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... redirect=1
Noting that there is a statistically higher rate of psycopaths among the wealthy is different from saying that rich people as a class are all psychopaths. But given that your ideology calls for the slaughter of wealthier classes, I suppose a degree of dehumanization is to be expected from you. Few people have the stomach to admit, even to themselves, that they people they want murdered are fully human (and those who do are generally, yup, psychopaths).

And for every harm caused by technology, you can point to another wonderful benefit. Technology is a tool, that is generally as good or bad as the person using it.
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"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: Survival of the richest: The wealthy are plotting to leave us behind

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K. A. Pital wrote: 2019-05-17 07:52am
FaxModem1 wrote: 2019-05-17 07:40am Mining deaths have also plummeted, because we've largely automated the process. Technology has improved safety in a LOT of career fields. Losing limbs from working, whether on a farm, factory, or a mine, is no longer considered a common, acceptable part of the job. We could do a lot better with how technology is employed, but we could do a lot worse.
They had to introduce safe practices because of the demands by the working class, who fought the masters with weapons in their hands. The Good Masters have no inherent interest to humanize anything, anywhere, as evidenced by brutality in the African mines where coltan for your computers is extracted, or by the life-endangering 300-hour crunch periods at beloved tech startups.

Like I said, the Masters understand only force, only when you can threaten them. The psychopaths they are, reasoning with them on the grounds of compassion, love, respect, fairness and friendship is impossible.

They do not value any of these. This is why they lead empty lives fetishizing their money, their castles, mansions, race cars, Titanics and other objects of conspicuous consumption, they even turn each other into such objects, with objectivized trophy women, and in the end easily destroy these unions because everything is only for material gain. As true functional psychopaths, they can imitate genuine emotional states, but not actually have real emotions.

This is why they think in terms of slave collars and apocalypse preparations, bunkers and investment calculations. They have become but living appendages of capital, bereft of feeling.

Technology itself is only a tool. But in the hands of the masters it is a tool of domination and oppression. Like the Maxim gun for the genocide victims across the colonized continents.
I think, as TRR is pointing out, that you're overgeneralizing to the point that we could go full French Revolution and not be satisfied. Especially as we do see those family members of those who have such wealth sometimes working to do what they can to improve the human condition, either as some sort of tax rebate, they want to feel useful, or because they want to improve the world so that they can live with themselves.

Note, I am not saying that we should be in any sort of worshipful relationship with the wealthy. I'm only noting that technology has generally made life better, and that not everyone with money is an evil son of a bitch needing to meet Mr. guillotine.
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Re: Survival of the richest: The wealthy are plotting to leave us behind

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Wow, way to ignore a point that I made clearly: yes, technology is a tool.

This tool is primarily in the hands of a psychopathic ruling class. So it is not bad as an inanimate object, but it is bad in the same sense the Maxim gun enabled the British Empire to massacre everyone local in their way.

Saying Pital here is a mean psychopath and the rest of your pathetic character attack is basically a tu quoque, as worthless now as it was before. Like, ignore the fact I am powerless and do not control technology or own capital, and steer it to push Earth into an ecological calamity hitherto unseen, which might end in omnicide, and say I am a psycho for speaking ill of the rich, that helps you to feel good about yourself. :P

Why am I surprised? Nemo propheta in patria.

I will leave you to try and solve the conundrum where you try to reason with people holding all the power, all the wealth and do not give two shits about you.

Surely the mercy and compassion of Jeff Bezos and his like will arise, shine and save the world. Keep dreaming.

As for their family members: just don’t ask for unemployment benefits, ask for their compassion once unemployed. I am sure they will come to help you guys! Cause that’s what they do, Tony Stark, Richie Rich and Scrooge McDuck.
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Re: Survival of the richest: The wealthy are plotting to leave us behind

Post by K. A. Pital »

Like, why am I even concerned about you and what happens to you if you keep trusting the rich? I guess I still have some empathy.

French Revolution? That is not happening.

Start small. Start by at least adjusting your own expectations, guys, stop expecting anything good from the rich.

They are buying property in NZ mountains and you are still expecting them to fix climate change, a joke for the fucking ages.
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Re: Survival of the richest: The wealthy are plotting to leave us behind

Post by The Romulan Republic »

K. A. Pital wrote: 2019-05-17 08:52am Wow, way to ignore a point that I made clearly: yes, technology is a tool.

This tool is primarily in the hands of a psychopathic ruling class. So it is not bad as an inanimate object, but it is bad in the same sense the Maxim gun enabled the British Empire to massacre everyone local in their way.

Saying Pital here is a mean psychopath and the rest of your pathetic character attack is basically a tu quoque, as worthless now as it was before. Like, ignore the fact I am powerless and do not control technology or own capital, and steer it to push Earth into an ecological calamity hitherto unseen, which might end in omnicide, and say I am a psycho for speaking ill of the rich, that helps you to feel good about yourself. :P

Why am I surprised? Nemo propheta in patria.

I will leave you to try and solve the conundrum where you try to reason with people holding all the power, all the wealth and do not give two shits about you.

Surely the mercy and compassion of Jeff Bezos and his like will arise, shine and save the world. Keep dreaming.

As for their family members: just don’t ask for unemployment benefits, ask for their compassion once unemployed. I am sure they will come to help you guys! Cause that’s what they do, Tony Stark, Richie Rich and Scrooge McDuck.
That's a fucking straw man, no, that's too generous, its a LIE, and you know it.

I am not trusting to the mercy and compassion of the rich. I am saying that they are not all psychopaths down to the last child, and that they don't deserve to be collectively dehumanized and/or murdered. Which you then reinterpret as "TRR trusts the rich and thinks they will solve all our problems." Because like all fanatics, you apparently believe that anyone who doesn't hate hard enough and broadly enough and actually has nuanced thought is the enemy.

Its not about trusting the rich, and its sure as fuck not about feeling good about myself, because believe me, nothing makes me feel bad like spending half my life in mudslinging matches with trolls. Its about believing that stereotyping millions of people (depending on how broadly you define wealthy) is wrong, and that the murder of civilians is wrong (I note that you don't even try to deny that your ideology supports the murder of an entire class of people). Those are sacred principles to me, and I will stand by them without shame, no matter how you or anyone attempts to smear me for it.

Also, I did not call you a psychopath. I said that people who recognize the humanity of their opponents and still want to murder them all are psychopaths. So if you take it as me calling you a psychopath, that is a pretty unflattering admission about yourself and your worldview.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

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Re: Survival of the richest: The wealthy are plotting to leave us behind

Post by K. A. Pital »

This sounds like “not all men” stuff, TRR.

Sure, not all of them are psychopaths down to the last person. How does this help the people who are abused by them without a hint at empathy?

The point of the article was that the wealthy (and it was deliberately clear we were talking about the ultra-wealthy, “UHNWI” in the language they speak) lack empathy and genuine interest in the future, they only want to survive and enrich themselves.

You chose to soften the criticism by introducing the shades-of-grey argument into the discussion. “It is a bad idea to brand entire classes of people as inherently evil”. Your words, not mine.

Now, “inherently evil” they are not- I grant you freely this part. But they are also evil not as individuals, but as a class.

Much like in a slave society, each individual slave owner might have different views, be more or less violent, be more or less kind-hearted, and some might seem more benevolent or compassionate than others- indeed, it is a fact some slave-owners were treating their slaves well - the evil originates from the existence of the system and the dominance of their class. Slavers are evil as a class, would you not agree?

Hence, my argument actually carries a lot more weight when you think about it. It is not the unique differences of character that are a problem, but the class itself, and the way being in this class deprives people of empathy and makes them become more like a virus with a simple “survive and enrich” program.

And the above applies to techbros as well. Which is why I have singled them out.
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Re: Survival of the richest: The wealthy are plotting to leave us behind

Post by Zwinmar »

You can not brand one class/race/subdivision/whatthefuckever as evil, that way leads to genocide and ethnic cleansing. They are people, some good, some bad, most a combination of both. You can criticize them all you want, that isn't the problem, what is the problem is calling for their complete elimination (or whatever euphemism) you want to use because you don't like them.

If you want to fight the technocrats then you have to do it the right way, through government regulation, you can not do it with the sword. I understand that feeling of helplessness that makes you want to lash out, don't. There is no such thing as black and white, only shades of a multitude of colours that can only be determined in hindsight by the generations that come after.
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Re: Survival of the richest: The wealthy are plotting to leave us behind

Post by The Romulan Republic »

K. A. Pital wrote: 2019-05-17 10:28am This sounds like “not all men” stuff, TRR.
Well, frankly, if someone said men are psychopaths, called them evil as a class, and implied that they should be destroyed, I'd object to that too. It wouldn't particularly concern me compared to misogyny, because misandrists have far less power to act than misogynists do, but I'd still think it was wrong.
Sure, not all of them are psychopaths down to the last person. How does this help the people who are abused by them without a hint at empathy?

The point of the article was that the wealthy (and it was deliberately clear we were talking about the ultra-wealthy, “UHNWI” in the language they speak) lack empathy and genuine interest in the future, they only want to survive and enrich themselves.

You chose to soften the criticism by introducing the shades-of-grey argument into the discussion. “It is a bad idea to brand entire classes of people as inherently evil”. Your words, not mine.
And that's the problem- as a fanatic, you think that having nuance or not hating absolutely is being "soft".
Now, “inherently evil” they are not- I grant you freely this part. But they are also evil not as individuals, but as a class.

Much like in a slave society, each individual slave owner might have different views, be more or less violent, be more or less kind-hearted, and some might seem more benevolent or compassionate than others- indeed, it is a fact some slave-owners were treating their slaves well - the evil originates from the existence of the system and the dominance of their class. Slavers are evil as a class, would you not agree?
Actually, I'd say that all slavers are evil as individuals, or else so delusional as to the nature of their actions as to be functionally indistinguishable from evil. The key difference between them and the merely wealthy is that one does not have to be directly harming another person and violating their rights to be wealthy. To be a slaver, you do.

You're using a false equivalency.

Also, there is no such thing as "treating your slaves well". Because at the end of the day, they're still slaves. Their master may not beat or rape or kill or starve them, but that's because their master chooses not to. The slave has no freedom. No right to choose. No dignity. They live or die at the whim of their master. Even suggesting that their could be such a thing as a "well-treated slave" is offensive.
Hence, my argument actually carries a lot more weight when you think about it. It is not the unique differences of character that are a problem, but the class itself, and the way being in this class deprives people of empathy and makes them become more like a virus with a simple “survive and enrich” program.

And the above applies to techbros as well. Which is why I have singled them out.
My whole problem is that you are treating people as a class, and implicitly arguing that they should be punished as a class, rather than treating them as people.

The fact that you compare an entire class of human beings (which includes children) to a virus following a simple program shows just how deeply you have dehumanized those you despise. That is deeply disturbing, because that is the mindset where atrocities begin.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

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Re: Survival of the richest: The wealthy are plotting to leave us behind

Post by Tribble »

Erm, IIRC one of the core beliefs of Marxism is that there are two classes (the Bourgeoisie and Proletariat) and that the Bourgeoise have to go. It doesn't particularly matter who that person is: if they are Bourgeoise, they are by definition an exploiter and suppressor of the Proletariat and thus part of the problem. IMO K. A. Pital is just being consistent to that belief and pointing that out.
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Re: Survival of the richest: The wealthy are plotting to leave us behind

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Tribble wrote: 2019-05-17 11:15am Erm, IIRC one of the core beliefs of Marxism is that there are two classes (the Bourgeoisie and Proletariat) and that the Bourgeoise have to go. It doesn't particularly matter who that person is: if they are Bourgeoise, they are by definition an exploiter and suppressor of the Proletariat and thus part of the problem. IMO K. A. Pital is just being consistent to that belief and pointing that out.
Yeah, and its a belief that has consistently been used to justify mass murder. That's kind of my point.

If there's one thing I want to be absolutely clear that I am consistently against, its the murder of civilians.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: Survival of the richest: The wealthy are plotting to leave us behind

Post by K. A. Pital »

The Romulan Republic wrote: 2019-05-17 10:50amWell, frankly, if someone said men are psychopaths, called them evil as a class, and implied that they should be destroyed, I'd object to that too. It wouldn't particularly concern me compared to misogyny, because misandrists have far less power to act than misogynists do, but I'd still think it was wrong.
The point I made was about how the saying “not all men” is not actually used to accomplish anything worthwhile. What its actual use is, is deflection - whenever the real problem is brought up, and the real problem is that women are many times more likely to be abused and raped, in comparison to men. It is the same as people bringing up male rape victims, but doing so to oppose movements exposing the abuse and rape of women. The “not all X” is used to muddy the waters and deflect, not to contribute something constructive.
Actually, I'd say that all slavers are evil as individuals, or else so delusional as to the nature of their actions as to be functionally indistinguishable from evil. The key difference between them and the merely wealthy is that one does not have to be directly harming another person and violating their rights to be wealthy. To be a slaver, you do.
Why? You do not need to be “delusional”, just believe that others (slaves) exist to serve you, or that your property rights can also include living people - who could have sold themselves into slavery, happened before in history. Which rights are violated, if no rights existed at a certain point in history? Are you saying slavers must have been individually evil for not realizing slavery will become a violation of others’ rights at some point in the distant future? And this is more logical than my view that evil originates directly from the system and the relations of production?

One does have to violate the rights of another to the full product of his labour (otherwise known as alienation) to become wealthy. One needs to keep the property-less working for a wage and constantly take away the product of their labour to create and keep creating and enlarging capital. In that way, capitalism is just like slavery - a violation at the core of relations.
Also, there is no such thing as "treating your slaves well". Because at the end of the day, they're still slaves. Their master may not beat or rape or kill or starve them, but that's because their master chooses not to. The slave has no freedom. No right to choose. No dignity. They live or die at the whim of their master. Even suggesting that their could be such a thing as a "well-treated slave" is offensive.
It is offensive to you in the XXI century. It was hardly so in the day of widespread slavery. And if it is so offensive to you, why are you not offended at the idea that some rich people treat their propertyless worker well? That is very similar. The workers live or are left without any means of subsistence at the whim of the masters. They are originally disposessed and then made work for scraps. And they have no actual freedom, unless they can back their demands up by striking, or unless they are themselves capitalists and thus must not work for a living.
My whole problem is that you are treating people as a class, and implicitly arguing that they should be punished as a class, rather than treating them as people.

The fact that you compare an entire class of human beings (which includes children) to a virus following a simple program shows just how deeply you have dehumanized those you despise. That is deeply disturbing, because that is the mindset where atrocities begin.
Currently the rich are doing atrocities against us as a class. Not because they individually hate us, but because capitalism is designed to exploit the masses and enrich the owners. So I think my view is at least giving them their own treatment back. Give unto Caesar what is Caesar’s.
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Re: Survival of the richest: The wealthy are plotting to leave us behind

Post by K. A. Pital »

Zwinmar wrote: 2019-05-17 10:43am You can not brand one class/race/subdivision/whatthefuckever as evil, that way leads to genocide and ethnic cleansing. They are people, some good, some bad, most a combination of both. You can criticize them all you want, that isn't the problem, what is the problem is calling for their complete elimination (or whatever euphemism) you want to use because you don't like them.

If you want to fight the technocrats then you have to do it the right way, through government regulation, you can not do it with the sword. I understand that feeling of helplessness that makes you want to lash out, don't. There is no such thing as black and white, only shades of a multitude of colours that can only be determined in hindsight by the generations that come after.
Oh OK.

So how are you going to stop them from buying a house in New Zealand and living a high life while lots of poor ppl in America, Asia & Africa drown in floods?
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Re: Survival of the richest: The wealthy are plotting to leave us behind

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Your suggestion that I am opposing the dehumanization and mass murder of civilians to "muddy the waters and deflect", implicitly because I support the agenda of the upper class and want to protect them from criticism, is a lie.

Your admission that you support atrocities against an entire class of people, which includes civilians and children, is repulsive.

I don't think there's anything left for us to discuss.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: Survival of the richest: The wealthy are plotting to leave us behind

Post by K. A. Pital »

The Romulan Republic wrote: 2019-05-17 12:10pm Your suggestion that I am opposing the dehumanization and mass murder of civilians to "muddy the waters and deflect", implicitly because I support the agenda of the upper class and want to protect them from criticism, is a lie.

Your admission that you support atrocities against an entire class of people, which includes civilians and children, is repulsive.

I don't think there's anything left for us to discuss.
As you wish, blame the messenger. Clearly, there were no valid points made by my humble self.

Get back to me when you have prevented the poor people from dying in floods and Peter Thiel from using blood transfusions to extend his life time in his NZ mountain penthouse. Hope you will manage to do that, and do that while separating all the sheep from all the goats.
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